Doublesizing sprites is hardly redrawing them, is it?Neon wrote: Like in the article your buddy Recap posted, they'd be required to redraw the sprites - all of them - to have the game running in arcade resolution.
Eh?Neon wrote:Like in the article your buddy Recap posted, they'd be required to redraw the sprites - all of them - to have the game running in arcade resolution.
Agreed. Thank goodness someone understands that clear visual input is a big deal for shooters (ESPECIALLY manic shooters). Probably moreso than any other genre.Kron wrote:I've really got to disagree with you there, I was playing it earlier and found it really difficult to focus throughout levels 3&4. This game really needs total clarity and definition to give yourself a chance so a blurry/messy resolution is really a hindrance.
Yes but horizontal resolution depends on the pixel clock, regardless of video bandwidth. If the arcade PCB runs at a horizontal resolution that the PS2's output does not support, then either filtering, cropping, redrawing or some other solution has to come in to play.elvis wrote:Eh?Neon wrote:Like in the article your buddy Recap posted, they'd be required to redraw the sprites - all of them - to have the game running in arcade resolution.
Arcade res *IS* SCART res! Hence why you can plug a JAMMA board direct into your SCART TV. No sprite redrawing required.
15KHz is 15KHz is 15KHz. There's no magic here folks. And there's no excuse to ADD unnecessary filtering, full stop.
Scaling can occur without filtering. I'm not understanding why everything thinks they must coexist.nZero wrote:Yes but horizontal resolution depends on the pixel clock, regardless of video bandwidth. If the arcade PCB runs at a horizontal resolution that the PS2's output does not support, then either filtering, cropping, redrawing or some other solution has to come in to play.
Not to mention the problem of overscan on consumer televisions... certainly why e.g. TATEHOSEI style modes exist.
It's simple; if you want arcade perfection, get the board. If you want a port, which judging from the quality of arcade ports in the past 10 years will most likely not be arcade perfect, that's fine. You get what you pay for.And all I expect is an arcade perfect conversion, right down to lack of filtering.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
Good thing Recap doesn't post here. You would have a large explanation on why it's okay. But basically, that's how terms come to play no? Large groups of people start using them. If that's not the case, then please tell people to quit saying "pwned" all the time.elvis wrote:Sounds to me like people aren't only mixing them up, When a large (or in this case even, small) group of people all use the same incorrect terminology, it doesn't all of a sudden make it right.
I'm sure this has been replied to, but in a word "no". They would not have to be redrawn.Like in the article your buddy Recap posted, they'd be required to redraw the sprites - all of them - to have the game running in arcade resolution.
Uh... no. The game (and everything about it) was already made in 15khz non-interlaced low res. There is added effort to add the interlacing. And as stated before... if people were moaning about not discerning bullets over background w/ the clarity of RGB on an arcade monitor, which is about as clear as it gets, you can bet people are going to bitch about this one.There you have it. True low res takes more effort.
RegalSin wrote:New PowerPuff Girls. They all have evil pornstart eyelashes.
The linked article is talking about conversions of CPS games. The CPS has a funky resolution which wouldn't fit into the lowres modes of systems like the Dreamcast, PS2, etc. Most arcade hardware runs at a much more standard resolution, like 320x240, etc. In most cases conversions would fit quite well without having to rescale or redraw anything. You might not get full perfect overscan for all resolutions, but that's hardly an issue.There you have it. True low res takes more effort.
Elvis, I'm sorry, but I have to pick a nit here. You keep talking about 15/31khz as if they're resolutions, which they're not. They're horizontal sync rates. It is perfectly possible to have a hi-res pixel resolution displayed on a 15khz screen -- it's done by interlacing, as previously mentioned. The monitor's resolution doesn't change, but the number of pixels being drawn certainly does. Saying '15khz is 15khz' doesn't mean much, since you can draw all kinds of weird pixel resolutions with a 15khz display. But I agree, there is no reason to do upscaling/filtering in this case.Arcade res *IS* SCART res! Hence why you can plug a JAMMA board direct into your SCART TV. No sprite redrawing required.
15KHz is 15KHz is 15KHz. There's no magic here folks. And there's no excuse to ADD unnecessary filtering, full stop.
Of course they don't have to coexist, but why would you rescale on non-matched pixel aspect ratios without filtering on hardware that can do it? Point resampling looks nasty too at those low resolutions, after all. Yes, ideally this shouldn't be a forced decision, but it's the easiest way to get TV-appropriate adjustable output.elvis wrote:Scaling can occur without filtering. I'm not understanding why everything thinks they must coexist.
Yes, that article talks about resolution. It doesn't mention why companies feel the urge to force filtering apon us also.Neon wrote:http://personal.auna.com/crsanest/misc/ ... cision.htm
There you have it. True low res takes more effort.
I've already covered why I don't buy second hand boards by choice. Home conversion "arcade perfection" is not impossible in this day and age (home consoles are generally many times more powerful than arcade PCBs - this isn't the 80's we're talking about). In fact, so far all the flaws have been because features have been ADDED, not subtracted.Acid King wrote:It's simple; if you want arcade perfection, get the board. If you want a port, which judging from the quality of arcade ports in the past 10 years will most likely not be arcade perfect, that's fine. You get what you pay for.
Then buy a board when they are first released. Regardless, new kits are still around for it, money will get to Cave unless you wait until no new boards are available. I'll reiterate, the simple fact of the matter is, you get what you pay for. You're expecting a perfect port when all logic and past experience says the likelihood is slim to nil. Whether or not it's possible is not at question. It's still a port. It's exceedingly rare for any port from any system to another to be perfect.elvis wrote: I've already covered why I don't buy second hand boards by choice. Home conversion "arcade perfection" is not impossible in this day and age (home consoles are generally many times more powerful than arcade PCBs - this isn't the 80's we're talking about). In fact, so far all the flaws have been because features have been ADDED, not subtracted.
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
Excellentcom still has new ones, according to their last price list.elvis wrote:Well with that in mind, could you make a suggestion as to where I can buy new boards that are likely to benefit Cave financially?
captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
That very much depends on the TV... I recognise we will always end up with scaling for yoko modes at least. That is how it is. However, I REALLY wish they would not then filter this scaled output. On my TV, the filtering turns the image into a smeared splat of graphic mess. The PS2 Vampire Savior pack offers users the option of turning the filter on or off. It looks better off, for me at least. See - that wasn't hard, now why can't Cave/Taito work this one out. Just add a fucking option!nZero wrote:Of course they don't have to coexist, but why would you rescale on non-matched pixel aspect ratios without filtering on hardware that can do it? Point resampling looks nasty too at those low resolutions, after all. Yes, ideally this shouldn't be a forced decision, but it's the easiest way to get TV-appropriate adjustable output.elvis wrote:Scaling can occur without filtering. I'm not understanding why everything thinks they must coexist.
This price list?Acid King wrote:Excellentcom still has new ones, according to their last price list.
I couldn't agree more. It's not like Cave/Taito are a pack of morons who don't know how to code for a console. Both of them have been around for some time and obviously know their stuff. This all comes down to poor QA. And quite frankly, I expected more from both these companies based on their previous offerings.bloodflowers wrote: On my TV, the filtering turns the image into a smeared splat of graphic mess. The PS2 Vampire Savior pack offers users the option of turning the filter on or off. It looks better off, for me at least. See - that wasn't hard, now why can't Cave/Taito work this one out. Just add a fucking option!
I've mentioned this before, its most likely the PS2 library/toolset they bought or use, as interlacing graphic output is very common for PS2 games. So I'm willing to bet it would be quite an effort to build or modify their own rendering engine. And why bother when the majority of home users have standard TV that don't rotate! Think about it, you don't want to display a non-interlaced picture in hori mode or you will loose lots of lines in resolution. They are fine with having it interlaced, so hori maintains as many graphic lines as possible, and just throw in tate option for the very few that actually have the display hardware to support this (god knows taito learned their lesson when they didn't add tate to their first port GigaWing Generations...).elvis wrote:It's not like Cave/Taito are a pack of morons who don't know how to code for a console. Both of them have been around for some time and obviously know their stuff. This all comes down to poor QA. And quite frankly, I expected more from both these companies based on their previous offerings.
Thanks for the info. I'll contact them ASAP.zakk wrote:The excellentcom price list on their page is not updated. You need to get the latest PDF/spreadsheet from them. Mail them and ask for it, they'll put you on the list. The last one from the 13th had an entire Cave section.
I would normally accept this argument for a mainstream game with a large play audience of "average" gamers. However considering that Cave fans are a minority of a minority and quite accute in their desires, you would think that they'd make an effort to accommodate.Dave_K. wrote:And why bother when the majority of home users have standard TV that don't rotate!
This is really what it all boils down to.elvis wrote:I would normally accept this argument for a mainstream game with a large play audience of "average" gamers. However considering that Cave fans are a minority of a minority and quite accute in their desires, you would think that they'd make an effort to accommodate.
The "majority of home users" aren't buying Ibara.
I was actualy going to ask the very same question you have answered. Thank you.Wanderer wrote:Not trying to open a new can of worms here, just making observations. I guess filtering benefits X-RGB owners playing on a monitor, but I also have a RGB monitor so low resolution would have been a nice option.
Maybe this is a matter of personal taste, but I also have an XRGB2+ and with scanlines off Mushi port still looked filter/blurry. With scanlines on its even worse. On the other hand, ESPGaluda upscaned with fake scanlines enabled is nearly identical to the PCB (maybe even better since you can tweak the scanline size to your liking).Wanderer wrote: Not trying to open a new can of worms here, just making observations. I guess filtering benefits X-RGB owners playing on a monitor, but I also have a RGB monitor so low resolution would have been a nice option.
I tested Ibara on a 19’’ Samsung Syncmaster 930B LCD (8ms, 1280x1024 native Res) using an regular XRGB cable courtesy of Matt. I didn’t change any of the settings on the monitor and let the X-RGB-2+ do its thing. I think it’s the game’s filtering blur combined with the natural blur of gaming on a LCD that makes it look so shitty.subcons wrote:I was actualy going to ask the very same question you have answered. Thank you.Wanderer wrote:Not trying to open a new can of worms here, just making observations. I guess filtering benefits X-RGB owners playing on a monitor, but I also have a RGB monitor so low resolution would have been a nice option.
I play my verts on a monitor through XRGB-2+, so I was curious. What size LCD did you try it on (native res), and did you mess with the settings on the unit to try and get a better picture? Also, what cable are you connecting your PS2 up with?
Yes, as stated in my above post the blurring unfortunately is still there.Dave_K. wrote:Maybe this is a matter of personal taste, but I also have an XRGB2+ and with scanlines off Mushi port still looked filter/blurry. With scanlines on its even worse. On the other hand, ESPGaluda upscaned with fake scanlines enabled is nearly identical to the PCB (maybe even better since you can tweak the scanline size to your liking).Wanderer wrote: Not trying to open a new can of worms here, just making observations. I guess filtering benefits X-RGB owners playing on a monitor, but I also have a RGB monitor so low resolution would have been a nice option.
You have to remember, the XRGB2+ has an easier time upscaling non-interlaced picture (since its just line doubling). Upscaling an interlaced picture involves much more since it has to merge the fields, thus the filter/blurry look continues.
PC monitors are not the same as arcade monitors. PC monitors are ment to display at least twice the number of lines than an arcade monitor's non-interlaced picture. So when you enable scanlines on the xrgb2+, of course the overall picture will look darker in comparison because you are blanking out half the picture!Wanderer wrote: I guess it is a matter of personal taste, as I find using the scanline feature on the XRGB-2+ makes the picture too dark and diminishes the natural vibrancy of the RGB colors. To counteract the darkness I try to mess with the different combinations of contrast, brightness, and black on both the monitor and the xrgb-2+ but everything results in a picture that is too washed out or almost but not to my liking.
At least with the filtered pictures I do not even have to mess with the scanlines and the colors look great. The blur is unforunately there though.
I would gladly welcome any suggestions on xrgb-2+ brightness, scanline, black, contrast settings.
Try reducing the size of the scanlines and the picture should brighten somewhat. Also, arcade monitors allow you to adjust the brightness, contrast, and individual RGB cut/drives much further than a modern digital PC monitor. So maybe try using an older analog PC monitor. 
Right, twice the number of lines thus the pixilated blocky default upscanned picture that I can't stand. I really like scanline setting 2 (2 of 4) which eliminates almost all the pixilation but still maintains the brightness somewhat. It's a compromise that’s worth the convenience of the device.Dave_K. wrote: PC monitors are not the same as arcade monitors. PC monitors are ment to display at least twice the number of lines than an arcade monitor's non-interlaced picture. So when you enable scanlines on the xrgb2+, of course the overall picture will look darker in comparison because you are blanking out half the picture!
The use of the term "Hi-res" should be strictly followed, it should never be confused with interlaced / filtered graphic.elvis wrote:When a large (or in this case even, small) group of people all use the same incorrect terminology, it doesn't all of a sudden make it right. Filtering and output resolutions are two very different things. Sounds to me like people aren't only mixing them up, but also not understanding the difference. There are plenty of games/hardware (home console, PC, and arcade) out there that offer both varying resolutions and separate filtering. Of course I understand that if your entire experience with seeing a video game is playing a Cave shmup on a PS2 how that would confuse you, but I'm sure folks here have experiences above and beyond that, and should quite probably try to use the correct terminology whenever and whereever possible.GaijinPunch wrote:Stick around, you'll see it used more. I'm fairly certain most people knew what was being referred to.Sorry, hardware guy. I get a bit anal about people throwing about terms like "hi-res" when they mean other things.
It would look GREAT.Metal Gear Okt wrote:Ok, let's say I've got my PS2 hooked up through component cables to a CRT HDTV. How shit is this going to look?