Adjusting red convergence

[Brad251]

I just got a Trinitron kv-27fs120 and the picture is decent but the convergence for red is slightly off. I especially notice it with red text like when you select an item in the Artemio 240p suite menu and in the life bar for Castlevania on NES. I could probably live with it but would it be difficult to adjust my red convergence? Would I mess up to many other things if I attempted to adjust it?

[Brad251]

I should also add that the specific problem I am having is that reds look slightly blurry. For example, the red text when an item is selected in Artmemio's 240p suite looks slightly blurry. I just played the second level of Castelevania for NES and that really showed the problem because all the red blocks looked blurry and oversaturated. Is this a convergence problem I am describing? Turning the color control down helps but then the colors become too dull. I have also calibrated the color control with a blue filter and the problem is still there.

[Crafty+Mech]

This is what a convergence issue (red) looks like:

http://www.ukvac.com/forum/uploads/1089 ... .01.27.jpg

Are you seeing something similar when you look at text that should be white? Is the issue in the corners of the display, or more towards the center?

[Taiyaki]

You can't adjust convergence through menus on the vast majority of consumer sets. You need to open it up and you'll find some knobs (generally 2). You'll also find focus there. You must never touch the boards but you can alter the setting with a safe screwdriver. After that you need to use permalloy strips to perfect convergence. They're those little tiny pieces of magnetic metal attached to strips with adhesive that fit with the magnetic end inwards towards the center of the yoke and as you move it around you'll see the picture change on the tube. I wouldn't do that unless you have supervision, preferably from someone with experience doing these things. If you have someone skilled who can teach you or help you with it, it's even possible to fine tune geometry by using multiple permalloy strips at the sweet spot where geometry and convergence line up.


In general red convergence are the most annoying, they're arguably the most visible. In my experience blue convergence is the generally the least obtrusive so if a compromise has to be made I'd go for having blue slightly out of sync, but this is just personal preference others might differ.


Where is the text blurry? All over the picture? The edges? You might be able to improve the picture using the focus knob inside. Also reducing contrast (which is actually brightness, or light intensity) helps with general focus and sharpness imo. Tube will probably live longer that way too. You can also try reducing the sharpness maybe.


It's generally impossible to get the picture to an absolute 100% perfect, this is even true with BVM's in my experience (they all have innate uncorrectable geometrical flaws). I think brand new tv's often shipped with minor geometrical and convergence issues (frequently in corners or edges) as well. I think once tweaked though it should stay in shape. I haven't had to retweak a tv before, maybe others have though.

[nem]

Sound to me like you have too much red gain.

[Taiyaki]

Oh ok. If that's not convergence then it could be red gain. It could also be the connection, are you on composite? Perhaps third party cables?

Convergence would seem more like areas out of focus, for example if you have red convergence problems in a part of the screen then if white text covered the whole screen, on the part with the issue you would see the white text blur out and appear noticeably redish around the the edges.

[Brad251]

This is what a convergence issue (red) looks like:

http://www.ukvac.com/forum/uploads/1089 ... .01.27.jpg

Are you seeing something similar when you look at text that should be white? Is the issue in the corners of the display, or more towards the center?

Based on that picture and what you guys are saying, this actually doesn't appear to be a convergence issue. White text on my TV isn't blurred and there is no separation of colors when I put up a white grid. Reds just look a little blurry around the edges and anywhere there is red. For example, I was playing Spider-Man and Venom: Maximum Carnage and the red in Spider-man's costume is blurry. Other examples are the life bar in Castlevania and red text in Artemio's 240p suite menu. Also, the blur doesn't really seem to be prevalent with darker reds.

[bobrocks95]

This is what a convergence issue (red) looks like:

http://www.ukvac.com/forum/uploads/1089 ... .01.27.jpg

Are you seeing something similar when you look at text that should be white? Is the issue in the corners of the display, or more towards the center?

Based on that picture and what you guys are saying, this actually doesn't appear to be a convergence issue. White text on my TV isn't blurred and there is no separation of colors when I put up a white grid. Reds just look a little blurry around the edges and anywhere there is red. For example, I was playing Spider-Man and Venom: Maximum Carnage and the red in Spider-man's costume is blurry. Other examples are the life bar in Castlevania and red text in Artemio's 240p suite menu. Also, the blur doesn't really seem to be prevalent with darker reds.

Are you using composite or S-Video? That's just color bleed in that case, which is most prevalent on reds.

[Brad251]

You can't adjust convergence through menus on the vast majority of consumer sets. You need to open it up and you'll find some knobs (generally 2). You'll also find focus there. You must never touch the boards but you can alter the setting with a safe screwdriver. After that you need to use permalloy strips to perfect convergence. They're those little tiny pieces of magnetic metal attached to strips with adhesive that fit with the magnetic end inwards towards the center of the yoke and as you move it around you'll see the picture change on the tube. I wouldn't do that unless you have supervision, preferably from someone with experience doing these things. If you have someone skilled who can teach you or help you with it, it's even possible to fine tune geometry by using multiple permalloy strips at the sweet spot where geometry and convergence line up.


In general red convergence are the most annoying, they're arguably the most visible. In my experience blue convergence is the generally the least obtrusive so if a compromise has to be made I'd go for having blue slightly out of sync, but this is just personal preference others might differ.


Where is the text blurry? All over the picture? The edges? You might be able to improve the picture using the focus knob inside. Also reducing contrast (which is actually brightness, or light intensity) helps with general focus and sharpness imo. Tube will probably live longer that way too. You can also try reducing the sharpness maybe.


It's generally impossible to get the picture to an absolute 100% perfect, this is even true with BVM's in my experience (they all have innate uncorrectable geometrical flaws). I think brand new tv's often shipped with minor geometrical and convergence issues (frequently in corners or edges) as well. I think once tweaked though it should stay in shape. I haven't had to retweak a tv before, maybe others have though.

I think the procedure you are referring to is for adjusting convergence at the corners and edges. I was referring to the convergence rings on the neck of the tube. Apparently there is a convergence ring for red and was wondering if it is just as simple as moving that ring slightly to adjust convergence or would moving that one convergence ring screw up a bunch of other stuff?

Also, I tested whether brightness and contrast on my set are reversed and I can verify that they are not. I tested this with both the user controls and the SBRT and SCON service menu options. The procedure you can do to verify this is pretty simple and I used Artemio's 240p suite. Normally, on TVs, brightness controls the black level so if you raise it, it will make a black screen turn grey and then almost white if you keep raising it. Contrast controls white level which increases the intensity of the white parts of the picture. The first thing I did was put up the Pluge pattern which is gray bars with a black background. When I raised the user menu brightness, the gray bars became much more visible and the black background became a lighter and lighter shade of gray as I continued to raise the brightness. When I adjusted the user menu contrast to max, the gray bars became a little more visible but the black background did not change at all. This makes sense because since contrast is "white level", it won't affect the black part of the picture. I experienced the exact same results when doing the same thing with sub-brightness (SBRT) and sub-contrast (SCON).

Another thing I did was put up a black screen in 240p suite using the exact same procedure as above. I experienced the same thing. The black screen became a lighter and lighter shade of gray when I increased user brightness and SBRT separately and raising user contrast and SCON did not affect the black screen at all. I did this same procedure on a JVC I'Art CRT and my FV310 and experienced the same thing. Brightness and contrast were not reversed on those sets.

[Brad251]

This is what a convergence issue (red) looks like:

http://www.ukvac.com/forum/uploads/1089 ... .01.27.jpg

Are you seeing something similar when you look at text that should be white? Is the issue in the corners of the display, or more towards the center?

Based on that picture and what you guys are saying, this actually doesn't appear to be a convergence issue. White text on my TV isn't blurred and there is no separation of colors when I put up a white grid. Reds just look a little blurry around the edges and anywhere there is red. For example, I was playing Spider-Man and Venom: Maximum Carnage and the red in Spider-man's costume is blurry. Other examples are the life bar in Castlevania and red text in Artemio's 240p suite menu. Also, the blur doesn't really seem to be prevalent with darker reds.

Are you using composite or S-Video? That's just color bleed in that case, which is most prevalent on reds.

I am using a Wii with third party component cables and have never had an issue with blurry reds using these cables before.

[Taiyaki]

I think the procedure you are referring to is for adjusting convergence at the corners and edges. I was referring to the convergence rings on the neck of the tube. Apparently there is a convergence ring for red and was wondering if it is just as simple as moving that ring slightly to adjust convergence or would moving that one convergence ring screw up a bunch of other stuff?

Also, I tested whether brightness and contrast on my set are reversed and I can verify that they are not. I tested this with both the user controls and the SBRT and SCON service menu options. The procedure you can do to verify this is pretty simple and I used Artemio's 240p suite. Normally, on TVs, brightness controls the black level so if you raise it, it will make a black screen turn grey and then almost white if you keep raising it. Contrast controls white level which increases the intensity of the white parts of the picture. The first thing I did was put up the Pluge pattern which is gray bars with a black background. When I raised the user menu brightness, the gray bars became much more visible and the black background became a lighter and lighter shade of gray as I continued to raise the brightness. When I adjusted the user menu contrast to max, the gray bars became a little more visible but the black background did not change at all. This makes sense because since contrast is "white level", it won't affect the black part of the picture. I experienced the exact same results when doing the same thing with sub-brightness (SBRT) and sub-contrast (SCON).

Another thing I did was put up a black screen in 240p suite using the exact same procedure as above. I experienced the same thing. The black screen became a lighter and lighter shade of gray when I increased user brightness and SBRT separately and raising user contrast and SCON did not affect the black screen at all. I did this same procedure on a JVC I'Art CRT and my FV310 and experienced the same thing. Brightness and contrast were not reversed on those sets.

Are you talking about the actual rings of the yoke itself? I wouldn't touch those personally. The only time I ever touched the yoke was when the horizontal lines were off symmetry and just a slight nudge to the entire yoke makes noticeable changes to all elements of the picture, especially geometry. Normally these were set properly in the factory and all further adjustments should be achievable through other means. Changing yoke rings, will change white balance, colors, geometry, convergence, the whole package, frankly I think it's something for when the situation is so bad there's nowhere else to go. There was a cool user here who had made a youtube video where he did heavy calibration on an FS set with the rings and came through with a great picture, but the video was sped up and he didn't explain or show how he achieved it.

I was talking about the knobs on the circuit board, you'll have a phase knob, a couple focus knobs and a couple for overall convergence. Yes the magnetic strips are used for corners and edges. Center convergence is probably always ok, and if it isn't that's probably something the knobs work on.

I highly doubt that, I had an FS120 and like all Sony Trinitrons (and frankly every CRT that I've ever owned) brightness and contrast are reversed. I've heard from a few people that theirs wasn't but I've yet to see a CRT that had the two controls labelled the way they should.

There's an article about that here:

http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/


It does sound like the red problem is red bleeding, I'm not sure about the Wii but the Gamecube is sensitive to red bleeding, I remember it being quite prevalent on composite, it might be worth giving the official cables a shot (Component or S-video). Sometimes third party cables can be troublesome, and rarely do they proving a picture that matches the picture of an official cable or a hand made shielded cable by some of those hobbyists who sell them on ebay.

[Brad251]

I highly doubt that, I had an FS120 and like all Sony Trinitrons (and frankly every CRT that I've ever owned) brightness and contrast are reversed. I've heard from a few people that theirs wasn't but I've yet to see a CRT that had the two controls labelled the way they should.

There's an article about that here:

http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/

Taiyaki, I read the article. You are both correct and incorrect on this issue; I'll explain. Yes, on a technical level, the contrast control on a TV does control the actual brightness or luminance output of the image (i.e. ft-L (foot lambert), candela (cd), etc.). If someone is just trying to make their TV brighter in any room then they would primarily be using the contrast control. The article is correct that the brightness control on a TV mainly affects reproduced contrast.

However, where you are incorrect is when using test patterns and this is the perspective that I am coming from. When you use test patterns such as in Artemio's 240p suite or a calibration dvd, you do not want to reverse the brightness and contrast controls. When you throw up a Pluge pattern and the dvd instructs you to decrease the "brightness" so that the gray bar disappears into the background, you actually use the "brightness" control on the TV and not the "contrast" control. This is because the Pluge pattern is for adjusting the black level and the brightness control on the TV adjusts the black level. The article you cited even mentioned that the brightness function on a TV adjusts the black level. I have a fair amount of experience with picture calibration and have never calibrated a TV where this wasn't the case.

Similarly, when you use a test pattern for adjusting contrast and the instructions say to adjust it using the "contrast" or "picture" control on the TV then you actually use the contrast control. This is because a test pattern for contrast is actually for adjusting the white level and the "contrast" function on the TV is for adjusting the white level. If you were to reverse the brightness and contrast controls when using test patterns then the picture would look completely off and not be accurately calibrated. I also want to point out that the article instructs you to adjust brightness and contrast controls using the exact same method I described in my previous comment.

I think an easy way to summarize would be, if you are not using test patterns and simply want to increase the luminance or actual brightness of the TV then you should increase the "contrast" control on the TV as the "contrast" control is adjusting the actual brightness of the picture. Black level would still have to be adjusted using the "brightness" control and if someone isn't using using a test pattern then they would need to just put up a black screen and raise the "brightness" control until just before the point where the black screen would turn gray. If you are using test patterns then you absolutely do not want reverse the brightness and contrast controls and use the controls that the directions for the test pattern instruct you to use.

[Ikaruga11]

How does the 120 look compared to the 310, Brad? I have a Sony KV-27FS120 and the picture quality is fantastic.

[Taiyaki]

Brad251> You are correct. I believe Artemio's suite was mostly created to aid in the calibration of CRT's so it would make complete sense for the instructions to follow crt nomenclature.

[Brad251]

How does the 120 look compared to the 310, Brad? I have a Sony KV-27FS120 and the picture quality is fantastic.

Without any calibration, the picture looks about 60% as good as the 310. I have calibrated my 27FS120 and it looks about 80% as good as the 310. That said, I do think the picture on the FS120 looks very good and is a perfectly fine consumer set. Before calibration, the first thing I noticed about the FS120 is that the image was too sharp, even after turning VM (Velocity Modulation) setting off in the user menu. I looked through the service menu and discovered that there is a VM (Off) setting which sets the amount of velocity modulation with VM set to off in the user menu. The default VM (Off) setting in the service menu is "2", so Sony was being sneaky trying to keep VM on even when you turn it off in the user menu. I turned the VM (Off) setting to "0" and that got rid of the problem of the picture being too sharp but then this made the picture too blurry; even after increasing the user menu sharpness control. To solve this problem I first increased the sharpness settings in the service menu like SSHO, SSHP and SHPF. This didn't help so I decided to take the back off the TV and adjust the focus knob. I put a white grid up on the screen and then experimented turning the focus knob clockwise and counterclockwise until I got the focus to be as perfect as I could get it and this solved the problem of the picture being too blurry with VM off. The picture was now looking much better but there was still a little bit of ghosting around dark edges and the user menu sharpness control wasn't getting rid of it. This is where the service menu options SSHO and SSHP came in handy. SSHO stand for "sub-sharpness gain (over) RF/Video" and SSHP stands for "sub-sharpness gain (pre) RF/Video". Turning SSHO down about 10 points and SSHP about 2 points eliminated the ghosting around dark edges.

Beyond doing this I calibrated the color control with a blue filter and adjusted the screen geometry. This helped a lot and now my screen geometry is about 85% perfect. I got lucky though with this set as the screen geometry wasn't that bad to begin with. There is only a small amount of bowing on the bottom part of the picture in the center that isn't really noticeable.

I actually can't believe how much better my picture looks after doing all of this. The only problem I am still having is that my FS120 is too bright and it hurts my eyes and I haven't yet been able to find a happy medium with the contrast setting. Either the set is too bright and it hurts my eyes or I turn the contrast control down and the picture is to dim and it strains my eyes. I tried decreasing sub-brightness and sub-contrast and then going back and using test patterns to re-calibrate brightness and contrast with the user menu controls but it didn't really help. I also turned down the screen (G2) knob on the back of the TV and re-calibrated but that didn't make a difference. I experienced the same thing to a lesser degree with my FS100 and recently got rid of two JVC I'Art CRT models that had the same problem. When the picture is overly bright and doing basic user and service menu adjustments and adjusting the Screen knob doesn't help, this can be a problem with with the screen (G2) supply or a bad component somewhere. This article talks about it, http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvebaowop.htm.

I will note that I never had any problems with the picture being too bright and hurting my eyes with the FV310. If I can't resolve this issue with brightness that I am having with the FS120 then I am going to get rid of it because it is just too hard on my eyes. There was a KV-24FV300 posted on Craigslist about a month ago in my hometown that was apparently not used much by the person and looks to be in very good condition. If I get rid of my FS120, I will likely be picking up the FV300. The only problem is I don't know if the guy still as it as he posted it 30 days ago but did renew the posting 9 days ago. I'll have to send him an email to see if he still has it. I'll be honest, I am getting pretty burned out going through all these CRTs and not being able to find one that works. If I keep having problems with consumer sets I might just save up and get a PVM.

[Taiyaki]

I'm glad you bring that up. I always wondered what SSHO and SSHP stood for. Thanks for the info!

That brightness issue sounds like a nuissance. What I would advise about the brightness is turn down contrast a bit (maybe around a third or so depending on your set's natural brightness) and push up picture/brightness controls 3/4 up (in fact on the later FV sets such as the 300/310 Sony shipped tv's with reduced brightness settings by default to the point that it's really necessary to increase the sub brightness a bit (I tend to bring it from the default 32 to 42~45). I tend to prefer slightly low brightness (contrast setting, luminance whatever) myself.

By the way there is no calibration possible with contrast or brightness that will prepare you for all your consoles. I have found that a perfect calibration of a calibration device will leave you with black crush on Gamecube games for example. different consoles require different levels of actual contrast (brightness) for there to be no black crush on details or for all elements to be fully visible. For example a PS2 or Dreamcast game will most likely require at least 7 or 8 points higher brightness setting than a SNES game does. PS1 tends to sit in between. It's a live and learn thing, and of course a bit of your own personal preference. Many games of the DC/PS2/GC and later console games had additional options to enhance the settings ingame but I find it much easier to just use the remote personally.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: My experience with pro monitors is they just don't look like CRT's other than the external casing. Went through a few myself (including the king BVM) and I wouldn't recommend them. I sometimes feel like they're overrated machinery that gamers have taken a liking to due to intense internet hype. They are phenomenally advanced for their time and they will put out the most pixel sharp image, but those advancements to the technology are a double edged sword that also reduces their crt like qualities if you ask me.

[Ikaruga11]

It's probably the lack of a high voltage regulator that makes the TV excessively bright.

[Taiyaki]

It's probably the lack of a high voltage regulator that makes the TV excessively bright.

I don't think that's the case, I believe the high voltage regulator shouldn't affect the luminosity, I think it only controls the voltages to cut the natural crt light bleed and so that the picture doesn't warp in areas of stronger brightness.