Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

[Obscura]

Yeah, I went in on Hard from a cold start. Honestly, it's not a problem execution wise; it's simply that if you don't have a route stone cold memorized, you're already dead.

I'm probably not going to spend any real time with it (realizing that I can't use my preferred input device with it is a buzzkill), but it was a real shock going back to a game I remember loving and finding it so wanting.

[BIL]

As a relative newcomer (only properly got into III a few years back), Normal might be worth a go. Nowhere as unforgiving but still far from a cakewalk. Moves fast, lots of RNG, short. tbh it's probably more accurate to consider Normal/Hard as Loops 1 & 2.

I'm really glad they didn't force you to unlock Hard every time, though, and that they made it as uncompromising as they did. I found it brutally inaccessible at first but crucially, it's no mere rote test (as Hard Corps/Shattered Soldier drifted into, to an extent). Still a rush long after getting the basic layouts down. Volatile throughout, to frequently spectacular effect (st3 wall smoosher, st4 missile hop and st6 hive are diabolical).

Were it default/Loop 1 I'd consider it OTT even in arcade context but as a slightly experimental "beat this motherfucker" (with lots of extends and bombs to not shut too many players out), I do fuckin love it!

It's pretty unplayable without an SFC pad (or something similarly laid out), yeah. Also, comfy shoulder buttons are critical... it's a misery having aim lock or rotation randomly cutting out on you.

edit: html tag bloodbath

[Squire Grooktook]

I dove (back) into hard nearly 5-6 years after clearing and didn't have too much trouble with anything. Either it stays with you, or it's not so bad.

Game has way too much randomness to be a true memorizer anyway. Awareness of a few boss and stage gimmicks are one thing, but a full stage (or even segment) route is kinda meaningless because the ten million rng zakos are going to throw it off no matter what you do. It's a very reactive game.

I've 1lc'd the game on hard and I don't even really have a route on stage 1. I know where the snipers and other set in stone hazards are going to be, but my plan for them essentially amounts to hoping that I can react to and maneuver through whatever the zako hordes throw at me while I try to take aim. Each stage has at least one moment (of varying length) like this, and with climbing intensity. The Final jumper zako push in the Lair is beyond the control of humans.

I use a super nes pad for literally everything (even fps's!!!!) so I'm good lol.

[Sumez]

No doubt about it, playing on Hard mode definitely requires knowledge of where every sniper is located.
Not so on normal mode, though. Even though Hard is "where the real fun begins" you shouldn't use it for reference on those things. Hard mode is intended for people who have beaten the game already. Even without the places that requires memorization, it's naive to imagine anyone could ever beat the game in their first try, even if they had godlike skills. I'd even say it's unrealistic for anyone to beat the third stage in their first attempt on Normal.

That said, Contra 3 is probably the least memorization heavy game in the series. Definitely less so than on NES, even though I also originally believed it to be the other way around. Play Contra 1 on NES enough and you'd almost be able to play it blindfolded. C3 however requires you to react to random elements on every stage. Sure, memorization helps a ton, but it'll only take you so far, which I think is the key here. And I'd say this goes for ALL the best action games, from Cave shooters to Metal Slug.

Also, you can't blame the game for wanting to be played on a game pad. It's not created for arcades. I would love to play it with an arcade stick, but it works fine with the standard SNES controller. The controls are spot-on and do not needs messing with. Though extra shoulder buttons for weapon switching and bomb activation would have been neat.

[Sumez]

On the weapon balance, I think it's great. It's a bit unfortunate that the optimal way to use the Crusher missile and most other weapons is (probably) an unintended "feature". But I do like the idea of one weapon outgunning the rest. Shoehorning "variation" into a game by forcing the player to switch between different weapons doesn't necessarily make it any better - in fact, it only increases the memorization aspect, especially if you have to switch out your weapons beforehand (unlike Hard Corps or Shattered Soldier that allow you to experiment on the fly)

It's not Makaimura level, where almost every other weapon is useless - fire, spread and laser are all really good for at least certain areas in the game, and I do think it's fair that the player gets rewarded for being able to stay alive with two crushers for maximum fire power, making the other weapons work mainly as backups. It's really only the homing missiles that lack a purpose, I can't think of any place in the game I would prefer it to the standard machinegun.

edit: Actually, the homing missiles could be horribly useful at the rockets/spaceship fight now that I think of it?

[Squire Grooktook]

Shoehorning "variation" into a game by forcing the player to switch between different weapons doesn't necessarily make it any better - in fact, it only increases the memorization aspect,

Ultimately, it depends on how you do it. There are no real absolute statements in game design, any goal can really be achieved if you're willing to potentially make some sacrifices and think outside the box. So you could totally do a low-memorization weapon switcher, if you planned it out thoughtfully.

But yeah, I agree. It's not perfect, but there's a genuine risk/reward balancing to the load outs that many games with such systems lack. As BIL pointed out, the Crush Guns are very much high risk, high reward weapons that can force you to brave some dangerous situations if you intend to stick with them the whole game. The rest are all varying degrees of usable and accel nicely in certain situations. Nothing's really going to get you killed or force a slog for picking it up.

[BIL]

edit: Actually, the homing missiles could be horribly useful at the rockets/spaceship fight now that I think of it?

I'd briefly considered that while going for the initial 1CC, but once I was attemping one-life clears I'd decided on C/C for quick, manually-targeted destruction of the cannons. Homing's abysmal damage output doesn't sound ideal... needless to say though, please do report back with any findings! ;3

Laser was my second choice for that fight after C/C. You can line up some fairly good damage from a much safer distance, if you're accurate. Again though, I feel a lot safer (as much as is possible in that RNG nightmare) just lining up a couple devastating CC barrages on each cannon, preceded by a bomb to clear the floating mines back. And of course keeping clear of fire from the cannons themselves. The danger decreases steeply as each part dies... once the core's exposed I focus more on not falling.

[Sumez]

Yeah, I think the real danger (for me anyway) in this fight is the fire from the turrets. Namely the lower one, as it's lined up so it's almost certain to hit you if it fires while you're jumping to another rocket.

Even with the horrible damage output from the homing missiles though, such a huge part of this fight is spent dodging, that apart from potentially being the safer way to go, I could see the DPS being much more competitive considering how small a window you actually have to get in damage with any other gun during this fight. As a bonus, I imagine it should take out any flares that show up along the way, giving you more room to dodge the turret fire.

Of course you would have to be stuck with the homing missiles for the two mini bosses before the fight, as well as the beginning of stage 5, so there's an obvious drawback. But I think I'll give it a try.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

It's really only the homing missiles that lack a purpose, I can't think of any place in the game I would prefer it to the standard machinegun.

I think homing is primarily just a crutch weapon for new players. Once you have a decent idea of how to deal with each stage and enemy, yeah, you don't need it anymore - it's definitely suboptimal if you know what you're doing - but for beginners, not having to aim is very useful. Everyone I've seen play the game for the first time gravitates to homing.

[Obscura]

Also, you can't blame the game for wanting to be played on a game pad. It's not created for arcades.

True, but there were about a million sticks for the SNES (both first and third party), and the series started in the arcade, and its first two console titles were arcade ports, so it's weird that they would have basically mandated the shoulder buttons for pair of silly gimmick levels.

(Also, my only controller with an SNES-like layout is an X360 pad where one of the shoulder buttons is starting to go out. That D-pad + R button being tough to activate is not a recipe for fun for this game, I'm fairly sure.)

[Sumez]

I'm sort of confused how you even connect an X360 controller to your SNES! Isn't input lag a bigger issue in this case?
</toocloseforcomfort>

The shoulder buttons aren't just for the "gimmick" levels. I can imagine using the lock feature in the side scrolling stages must be problematic with an arcade stick too. And I really wouldn't want to be without that.

[Obscura]

Lock isn't a problem on an 8 button stick; weapon switch on LK, shoot on LP, jump on MP, bomb on HP, lock under the pinky.

[BIL]

Also, you can't blame the game for wanting to be played on a game pad. It's not created for arcades.

True, but there were about a million sticks for the SNES (both first and third party), and the series started in the arcade, and its first two console titles were arcade ports, so it's weird that they would have basically mandated the shoulder buttons for pair of silly gimmick levels.

Not in 1992, and the game was in development from '91. The Nintendo-licensed Super Advantage didn't appear until 1994. Konami would either be tying a marquee SFC production to third-party sticks of variable quality, or plowing money into manufacturing/licensing their own.

And love or hate III's topdown stages, including a secondary non-sidescrolling game type is totally in line with established series tradition. Makes sense they took full advantage of the hardware and its controller. There's also the series' equally traditional dilemma of stationary aim control, something the shoulder buttons solved especially neatly.

However! Since finding out Konami's standard JAMMA warning is buried in III's code, I've toyed with the notion of a standard stick + ABC control layout. It'd be a tight squeeze but I could see the below working:

A: gun switch / rotate L
B: shoot (double-tap to switch guns during topdown stage)
C: jump / rotate R
Start: bomb

Aim lock: Hold A while shooting, ala Hard Corps.
Pose: A+C, obviously.

Six buttons would be an easier fit, but we gotta consider the bottom line! Kick harnesses don't grow on trees!

[Obscura]

Your control scheme wouldn't let you duck in the top-down stages.

(I'm surprised the Super Advantage took that long to exist. I figured that given the success of the NES Advantage, Nintendo would be pushing one for the SNES on day 1.)

[BIL]

FUCK. Er, A+C to duck during topdown stage. You can't rotate while ducking anyway. And sidescroller pose is cool but topdown pose can go. You can still skullfuck and otherwise artfully molest defeated bosses by crouching anyway. ;3

edit: messing about with III this evening, tried using H on st4 boss. Results were... sub-optimal. To be specific: The missiles will go straight for the core, which is covered by the unbreakable force field, while the grenades overrun you and the cannons shoot you.

Definitely a bad idea. And once the force field is down, you'll be under far less pressure, making Homing vastly less relevant. I guess you could unload nine bombs on the cannons, then H the core. Sounds a bit excessive.

Flamethrower is also crap for this boss, you'll have to be up close and stationary to do real damage. Hell naww. Spread is mediocre, while Machinegun is actually among the better choices along with Laser, but of course can't be used without suiciding. C puts you dangerously close but personally, it's such a stick-and-move fight, getting in range to deal the damage before clearing out feels pretty natural.

Also encountered a little glitch I'd never seen before, with st1's tank. Hopped out to kill the snipers and grenadiers just before the second barricade; tank took a fatal grenade just as I hopped back inside. Instead of being instantly ejected as normal, I ended up tumbling in midair for a bit, before doublejumping back out with the usual exit invincibility. Cute!

[Sumez]

Street Fighter 2010 - US NES vs Famicom version? Box art is pretty badass in both versions, and I don't have any NES/Famicom bias. Any ingame differences worth noting apart from the main character's name?

[BIL]

No gameplay differences at all IIRC, but FC box is way cooler with its riff on Judas Priest's Killing Machine.

It's an excellent game - one of my most valued sidescrollers. It does have its rough edges, but they totally gel with its concept of methodical counter-aggression. Worth persevering with.

[Sumez]

You convinced me, the Jap artwork is definitely cool enough to go that route.

[Shoryukev]

I assume the GG version has been difficulty adjusted for the smaller field of view, but the SMS version has two difficulty settings - the hardest of which is quite challenging, not least of it is that you take fall damage (except when thrown from chutes).

Do either of the versions require you to find all the extra lives to unlock the ending scene like the SMS version does? I wonder how much of my time with the game was spent trying invisible walls and odd jumps just to find the damn things?!

Again not sure about the NES but the manual for the SMS version has an overworld map which helps a lot! If you are looking for it, the blue box Kixx re-release is much more expensive than the standard "white grid" version.

I agree, I think the damage might be scaled differently in the GG version to try and offset the field of view being so small (there are a few spots where you blindly walk into some heavy fire or have to make leaps of faith). The GG version having several difficulty settings but the NES version has none, I would assume it defaults to the hardest one (you take severe fall damage).

I'm not sure about the extra lives thing, I have gotten 100% on the GG version but that was probably 20 years ago. I'll probably have an answer for that on the NES version soon. I don't think the master system version was ever released in the USA (the master system had tons of good titles that never saw release here unfortunately), but I plan on importing it soon.

Just a little follow-up on something I was talking about awhile back.

I played through the Game Gear version of Star Wars this weekend, and it was immediately evident what was different between it and the NES version. There were some differences in platform locations that were tougher in the NES version, but the main difference was the enemy movement. The enemies were much more relentless, especially Boba Fett's....they are BRUTAL on the NES but a total pushover in the GG version. The speed at which the enemies moved about, and their projectiles were much faster on the NES.

The beginning of the game seems very different, and I'm pretty sure there's a bunch of stuff added and also some stuff missing. It seemed like several of the caves in the NES version weren't there, but there were also extra levels in the desert were added between them. The GG lacks the overworld "hub" where you drive the speeder around and find the caves, it just puts the levels in a certain order and that's it. Also Obi Wan was way off to the right in an easy to see spot on the Game Gear, where I remember him being way off to the left of the cave in the NES version in a spot where you had to jump across several pits to get to him.

Another major difference I noticed was in the flying stages. The level where you pilot the falcon through the asteroid field, and the couple of X-wing levels taking out tie fighters....the controls on the GG port were sloppier and kinda floaty. This could be a delay thing in the Game Gear's screen though, I have no clue. I beat the game with a 98% percentage (it gave me the extra ending scene BTW) and basically just walked through the whole thing in about half an hour with little frustration.

If you've ever played Battletoads on both NES and Genesis, that is the easiest way I can explain the difference. Same basic game, but the NES version is much harder and really makes you work for it! In this case, I think the NES version might put some people off with it's difficulty...maybe not the people on this forum, but speaking in general. The game is beautiful on the GG/SMS for an 8-bit game as well. I really enjoy how closely it follows the plot of the movie, and is a great game if you can get past its learning curve.

Overall I'm glad I played through it again on the Game Gear. It made me realize there was a definite difference between the ports, and it wasn't just me sucking when I struggled in the NES one LOL. I will definitely be playing the NES version again with a new hope of beating it (pun intended)

[TransatlanticFoe]

I guess the platform changes are for the smaller screen. Having played the SMS version, there are plenty of genuine leaps of faith so the GG screen probably wouldn't sit nicely with the regular jumps. Also weird it gives you the full ending without 100%ing... the SMS version definitely enforces that.

I'll have to set up an emulator and check out the NES version to compare difficulty with the SMS version. The Mandalorian bounty hunters are tough in the SMS version if you're using a blaster - they go down in seconds with the lightsaber.

[Shoryukev]

I guess the platform changes are for the smaller screen. Having played the SMS version, there are plenty of genuine leaps of faith so the GG screen probably wouldn't sit nicely with the regular jumps. Also weird it gives you the full ending without 100%ing... the SMS version definitely enforces that.

I'll have to set up an emulator and check out the NES version to compare difficulty with the SMS version. The Mandalorian bounty hunters are tough in the SMS version if you're using a blaster - they go down in seconds with the lightsaber.

There are a few of the Sonic games on the GG that have leaps of faith everywhere because they were SMS ports LOL. It is rather annoying, I'm willing to bet it was adjusted for the smaller screen real estate. I looked up a gameplay video of the SMS version and Obi Wan was in the same location as the NES one so things were changed on the GG for sure! Chances are they could have tamed the entire game down...it definitely seems that way comparing it to the NES port.

I think the screen real estate might help with the bounty hunters too. On the game gear you can kill them before they even get a chance to shoot if you know where they are since they don't activate till they're on screen. 3 shots with a blaster and they go down while they are still on the edge of the screen.

I really want to get my hands on the SMS cartridge and check it out. I love the game, and now that I've finally picked up Phantasy Star it's at the top of my list.

[BrianC]

The SMS and GG Star Wars ports were done by Tiertex, so I wouldn't be surprised if something was wonky with them.

[Shoryukev]

The SMS and GG Star Wars ports were done by Tiertex, so I wouldn't be surprised if something was wonky with them.

The GG one is imported by US Gold too, which doesn't exactly have a great reputation LOL. There's nothing wrong with the ports from what I can tell, just some minor tweaks. Seems like they messed with the GG port more since it came out two years later.

[BIL]

God damn, CONTRA III HARD MODE is the best technical obsessive's sidescrolling action/platform shooter. It has a frickin rare balance of rampant pace and variety to a consistent, deadly emphasis on surgical performance. Death and Glory beat their maddeningly conflicting compulsions down on the challenger's brow, while wimpy options abound. Alien Soldier, Taromaru and Sin & Punishment are three of my other favourites in the Konami/Treasure nonstop face-shredding action blitzkrieg school, featuring rollicking pace and variety to rival CIII - but all very pointedly keep DEATH at arm's length. They'll kill your run, typically not you. But in III, you slip up while going for the ultimate slam-dunk assault, Sudden Death is gonna bite your head clean the fuck off! o_o You better run for cover if you're scared! I live in shame of quick-killing Gyaba mkII and GTFOing to the chopper in my current replay. That shameful shortcutting wouldn't have gotten a B RANK in Shin Contra. v_v But that razor's edge tension (along with precious, sparing volatility) is ofc what makes this such an enduring technical ecstasy par excellence. When Hard Corps and Shin Contra are good they're friggin beautiful, but this sense of peril escalating in proportion to expertise is III's only.

Also I'm working on my boss insulting. I think flipping onto st3 Wall Driller as he blows up is a pretty amusing approximation of mid-air teabagging. Needless to say st5 carousel is the ultimate stage - creative poses and fearless execution are a must to attain NC-17 rank. Here's how I get to st1 turtle (original technique, please give credit):

Animated GIF "0471AMs / The Perfect Works BIL_RZR DVD Ch1.6"

Spoiler

Sumez you bloody awful crumpet-chomping elitist: have you tried C+L on the st4 boss? I was messing about and found that with a couple bombs, it's a really good combo. You can do mashup damage with C and score long-range snipes with L! And L is actually a pretty sound choice for st5! Ultimately I recommend just mastering the C+C stick n' move though. First credit I got my disintegrating carbonised buttocks chucked back by the final phase missile hop, to the tune of five misses. Forgot how bloody dangerous it is on Hard. I swear the delay between friendly missiles is longer. I can't be arsed to compare with Normal though, lmao. This is my last weekend to ferociously nerd out for the next while, imma live it up!

[Squire Grooktook]

I approve this message.

Contra 3 is basically my model for precise gameplay design. I think I could write an essay about the genius balance of different fundamentals in the first stage alone (rng, variety, pacing, etc.)

By the way, where is your new all caps sig quote from

[BIL]

Hahaaa, it's Black Sabbath's Disturbing The Priest and you truly are a man after my own heart. When I get a bit tipsy/caffeinated and blast ye olde rock/metal, some of those lovably preposterous lyrics really jump out at me.

LET'S
TRY
GETTING TO THE SKY!
HANG ON OR YOU'RE GONNA DIE!

[Sumez]

st1 turtle

I do believe its name is Slave Beast Taka!
Though Sir Brainsforarms is acceptable.

Sumez you bloody awful crumpet-chomping elitist: have you tried C+L on the st4 boss?

Will try! It is not the first time I hear this. Actually getting to the boss with C+L will take me a while though. Also, I'm sorta burned out on C3 at the moment and need to recharge. I'm giving Contra 4 another go at the moment, and realised that it is way better than I gave it credit for when it came out. I got offended by the cheap shots an similar designs that pretty much require memorization, but once you got that down, it's an amazing callback to the true run'n'gun action of the first two Contras.

I swear the delay between friendly missiles is longer. I can't be arsed to compare with Normal though, lmao.

It's definitely much longer! The fight isn't too difficult on Normal as you can always play it safe. On Hard, you're at the mercy of the missiles, and it's still far beyond me how you can possible survive this fight without getting cornered by an unfortunate missile formation combined with shots from the lower turret.

[BIL]

Oho... you too have read Shin Contra's tracklist, I see. That is a rather sexy, grimy techno/metal tune they gave him there. Massive tension release when the guitar finally gets loose.

As chaotic as st4's boss is, I don't think there's any particular "pattern of death" - I've not seen Hurblat or other hardcore Contra runners mention one, anyway. I don't speedrun myself, but I like referring to them (as well as TASers) for really nitty-gritty details. Consensus seems to be the boss is just a bitch wrapped in a maelstrom cloaked in nightmares.

The ship's swaying gives the turrets a deceptively lethal reach, despite them being fixed-angle. When I'm taking them down, I'm always thinking a couple steps ahead to the dodge - when one fires, a big vertical swathe of screen is gonna be fatal.

What will definitely steal a life is that god-awful glitch that randomly dumps you offscreen as the boss explodes, but it's 100% avoidable by leaping into the upper-left. I jump for my goddamn life, just to be sure, but the margin must be pretty forgiving - I've never had it fail once.

[Sumez]

I do own that soundtrack on the old school audio format known as compact disc. I find it to be very excellent.

As chaotic as st4's boss is, I don't think there's any particular "pattern of death"

I'm pretty sure there aren't one. I've never seen any of the top Contra 3 players fail that boss on live broadcasts. The problem is entirely in the way I play and that I still haven't figured out the boss. I know how it works and what it does, but I still have no clue how to play it.