DC/PS2/GC/WII CRT or LCD TV Preference?

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

So I'm interested in the opinions of folks on this board regarding their preference for 480p (non "HD") consoles and where they hook them up in their setup. Personally, I currently have my GC and Wii hooked up to my Sony Trinitron as I prefer the absence of potential lag my Sony Bravia may introduce, but I'm missing the auditory experience of my beefy soundsystem hooked up to my LCD, as well as obviously smaller screen rel estate for games with anamorphic widescreen support (32' Trinitron).

I'm looking to pickup a PS2 and Dreamcast in the near future, so I was considering whether I should just migrate all four of those 480p capable consoles to my LCD. The two main barriers to that idea that I can perceive are obviously input lag due to internal scaling on the LCD, and the lack of 480p support for many PS2 games (and maybe a less sharp image quality). Maybe it would be better then to make a distinction between consoles, so my question to you all is:

DC: CRT or LCD?
PS2: CRT or LCD?
GC/Wii: CRT or LCD?

[Arasoi]

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[cr4zymanz0r]

Since my largest CRT that supports 480p is a 14", I generally prefer 480p on a LCD HDTV. I also don't seem to be very sensitive to lag, unless it's a cheap device/display causing enough lag where you can easily see the delay between a button press and character movement with the naked eye .

However, visual quality can vary a lot between consoles.

DC: Absolutely beautiful 480p from its VGA out and the majority of the games support it. However, many (all?) recent HDTVs don't have VGA inputs. I've also ready supposedly that many cheap (and maybe non-cheap) VGA to HDMI adapters detect DC's VGA as 720x480 due to a higher than standard pixel clock, thus kinda squeezing the horizontal part of the display inward a little too much (I can't wholeheartedly vouch for the technical reasoning, but I did see the video 'squeezing' on one cheap VGA to HDMI adapter I tried).

PS2: The vast majority of PS2 games are 480i. Some can be forced to 480p with homebrew tools, but I'm not under the impression that compatibility is high. I'm also not super impressed with the quality of the component output. It's not unusable, but it does seem to have some noise in the signal. It's not as noticeable to me when sitting back on the couch though. Though I honestly haven't played much PS2 on a HDTV, especially 480i only titles so i'm not sure how great that would look (and i hear deinterlacing 480i causes more lag). An older backwards compatible PS3 would be much more crisp with PS2 games when using HDMI output (though I really like the convenience of booting games from a HDD or SD card on a real PS2). I also don't really know if playing PS2 games on a backwards compatible PS3 introduces any lag, significant or not.

GC/Wii: Most gamecube and Wii games support 480p, so you're good on that front. GC has really good/crisp component video output in my opinion, but those component cables are damn pricey. I'm honestly not a real fan of an actual Wii on a HDTV because its component output is blurry. However, playing Wii games on a Wii U via HDMI is extremely crisp. There's also some good homebrew solutions such as Nintendont for running Gamecube games on Wii U (via Wii mode). You can't use actual Gamecube discs that way though.

[tacoguy64]

My preference is crt for all those consoles.
Though I am kinda lucky I have a giant presentation display to sit further back which is a requirement for wii games that use the WiiMote.

For DC there is nothing that beats vga to a crt. Picture is very poppin. I use both PC monitor and the NEC display to play. I tried doing RGB with scart going to my plasma/frameister and it was still good but not the same level of pop. I can recommend playing DC on a HDTV if it scales 480p nicely.

PS2: I don't have much experience with that system so I can't say. Didn't like how it looked when I connected the system directly to the plasma tv, though I don't think it handles 480p all that well. Didn't try using the frameister since I dont have a d-terminal connector. Can't really say anything definitive about PS2.

Wii/WiiU: I feel like for Wii games you will want the biggest display you can have because you need to sit further back for games that make use of the sensor bar. Wii U games also run at HD so another point for you HDTV. Still the image quality is better on the crt for both Wii/Wii U. For my situation I have my Wii U hooked up directly to the plasma. I don't own a Wii so I do all my Wii playing on the Wii U.

[ZellSF]

PS2 has lots of low resolution 480i only titles and those generally look like shit on a HDTV, but many titles can also be forced to 480p.

It's the one issue I have with going HDTV only, everything else looks and plays fantastic IMO.

[tacoguy64]

Thats a bummer, I was somehow under the impression that a lot of PS2 games had progressive scan. If that's the case then you will need a frameister for the PS2 if you want to play it on a HDTV.

[FinalBaton]

Indeed, the PS2 only has 180 or so 480p games out of a library of 1800 (US released)games. So you really gotta consider it as a 480i system for the purpose of a screen setup.

How much lag is there on yout LCD? If it's already in the 36ms range and up then you can pretty much forget about the Framemeister, as you'll end up wich too much lag. In that case you might wanna pick up an XRGB-3 or an OSSC (although the OSSC supposedly gives a very clen result with 480i, it also loses detail on the vertical axis since it sees a 240p image and line doubles that. it rock solid though).

Also, maybe your LCD will deinterlace and upscale well. Mine does, it looks really decent plugged straight in with component cables. But most HD tvs do not play nice with 480i unfortunately.

The Dreamcast looks great on LCDs thought. Most LCDs upscale a 480p signal really well. The DC has like 90% of it's game library outputting in 480p natively. And with a modern VGA box like the ones from BeharBros, you can get 99% of games to output in VGA mode.
Of course if your fine with 480i on an SD CRT you can also play it on there. Playing without lag and having a good CRT pic is awesome!

[Ikaruga11]

7th Gen and earlier: BVM CRT
8th Gen and up: LED IPS Monitor

[Ed Oscuro]

For the PS2 I'd look at the alternate display mode support list and see if there's not anything you'd hate yourself for missing. There's quite a few forgettable games, and some of the better 480p games are multiplatform (i.e. RE4) but it also includes most of the Jak & Daxter games, the SOCOM series, Black, and the Cambridge Studios titles Ghosthunter and Primal.

More PS2 games have 16:9 support, so a LCD may well end up being the most economical option for those (keeping in mind it'd be 480i) and the 480p, unless you're set on getting a widescreen BVM to ensure absolutely everything is supported. Note that the widescreen BVMs cost more for the same 4:3 display area as comparable 4:3 only displays, of course.

[bobrocks95]

Just my 2 cents on the topic since my setup may be somewhat unique:

I use a Panasonic EDTV, similar to the Pioneer display that Fudoh mentioned in his seminal old display tech thread. Basically, it's a 480p monitor, and anything that is 480p (or sub-720p like the PSTV) I play on it. I don't really notice much lag, but from testing it apparently has a lot, unlike Fudoh's Pioneer. It was also pretty hard to track down, but I specifically wanted the last professional model they made, so widening the net puts finding one in the realm of possibility, if anyone was at all interested. The picture quality I would say is phenomenal for 480p sources, and looks MUCH sharper than my Sony HDTV which everyone seems to like the 480p scaling on.

Wii and DC (as well as original Xbox and Gamecube) look great on it. The PS2 I don't consider a 480p console, so whenever I redo my setup it's going over to the CRT I use for 240p/480i content. I tried for YEARS to mess with 480p forcing and widescreen patches and all that, but at the end of the day it just doesn't work well as a 480p console.

The third display I've tried with 480p content is a Trinitron PC monitor I have, but the flickering on it really bothered me. It's odd because I don't notice any flickering on my consumer CRT running 240p games- maybe it's just been a really long time since I used a PC CRT and it's inherent to them when running at 60Hz? I know it can do up to 1600x1200 at 85Hz or so, maybe feeding it such a low res and refresh rate makes the flickering really apparent? I don't know if multi-sync PVM/BVMs have this same issue or not, I don't really know much about it.

[Blair]

The PS2 I don't consider a 480p console, so whenever I redo my setup it's going over to the CRT I use for 240p/480i content

have you ever thought about using one of those $20 GBS-8200 de-interlaced/scaling boards? I've heard its component input is actually better than its RGB input (also, no need for a sync-strike I would assume), and since the processing chip was actually designed to de-interlace above all else, I wonder how it would compare to some of the other processors people use. I haven't been able to find much information though about how well it handles 480i content (I've been thinking of testing it out myself)

[bobrocks95]

It's got a couple frames of lag though, doesn't it? Supposedly the plasma already has 4-5 frames (though it doesn't feel like it), so I think any more would probably be painful? $20 isn't a big price to pay for curiosity though!

[Blair]

I believe it has 20ms to 24ms input lag ( that's about 2 frames, I think). but the custom firmware project might have actually reduced that. unfortunately it seems like the creator of the project has gone MIA. so the latest version is probably the last version. [http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=52172]

check out the pictures of the user on the last page, he made a really nice looking set up with his (the scart-face, lol)

I'll probably be picking up one of them myself next month just to mess around with, (if I can find a decent compatible power supply on Amazon that is)


my main LCD has around 40ms in game mode, but I've used processors that add an additional 46ms to that number (86ms), seems perfectly playable to me, I can compete fairly well in VF4 at 100+ms, so maybe I'm just weird.

[FinalBaton]

a native 480p set is awesome for 480p consoles indeed (I myself use just that. well it's a (true) multisync actually). But not everyone will be willing to add another screen to their setup. Plus, 1080p sets generally display 480p content really well. And also, a 480p set is not gonna help with 480i content. of course.

OP, once you get your PS2, check how well your tv handles it. if it doesn't look nice, and you don't wanna buy a framemeister or a DVDO VP50, than play on an SD CDT. The SD CRT is a fine option for 480i

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Thanks for all of the opinions, guys. So, it makes sense, as many of you have pointed out, that due to the majority of PS2 games being 480i only, my Trinitron seems like a no-brainer.

For the Gamecube, I only use it to play Gameboy/GBC/GBA, so I'm thinking of also keeping that one hooked up to my CRT.

Regarding the Wii, I think I may migrate it over to my Sony Bravia, it's just annoying as shit to go spelunking back there in the rat's nest to disconnect things and set it back up when I have currently over 10 consoles jerry-rigged to my Trinitron. Is there an easy way to test LCD input lag that doesn't require hooking up a console and using a test suite? Anyone have a good website to check lag based on TV model?

About the DC, I'm still not sure whether LCD or CRT is the one for me. Fortunately for me I actually don't have one yet, so I guess I'll try both before making a decision when I do get one.

[Ikaruga11]

About the DC, I'm still not sure whether LCD or CRT is the one for me. Fortunately for me I actually don't have one yet, so I guess I'll try both before making a decision when I do get one.

Definitely a CRT, specifically a PC CRT since many of them display native 480p and have a VGA connection.

[kamiboy]

CRT all the way.

[nissling]

I go for LCD. Upscaled 480i/p of high quality is generally better than native such imo.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Thanks for the insightful opinions, guys. I suppose I'd like to refine the choice a little further to what I currently have: if your choice were between a 480i 32' CRT, or a 46' LCD, what would you use for the Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Wii?

[FinalBaton]

For the Dreamcast you HAVE to take advantage of it's progressive scan capability. And to me that means LCD. Just plug your DC's VGA cable directly in your LCD(or if it doesn't have a VGA port : buy a VGA-to-HDMI transcoder) and it will look great.
As much as I love CRTs... displaying the DC in 480i is a crime! Especially since modern LCDs upscale 480p so well.
You gotta take advantage of the DC's 480p output!

Of course a native 480p CRT is best but if I had the choice between LCD and 480i CRT, I'd go LCD for the DC.



As for the other consoles...
Wii on the LCD if you use it's 480p output. On the 480i CRT if you use it has a 240p VC machine.

Gamecube... I am not familioar enough with this one. I don't know what percentage of it's games support 480p.So it's hard for me to forge an opinion on this one.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

For the Dreamcast you HAVE to take advantage of it's progressive scan capability. And to me that means LCD. Just plug your DC's VGA cable directly in your LCD(or if it doesn't have a VGA port : buy a VGA-to-HDMI transcoder) and it will look great.
As much as I love CRTs... displaying the DC in 480i is a crime! Especially since modern LCDs upscale 480p so well.
You gotta take advantage of the DC's 480p output!

Of course a native 480p CRT is best but if I had the choice between LCD and 480i CRT, I'd go LCD for the DC.



As for the other consoles...
Wii on the LCD if you use it's 480p output. On the 480i CRT if you use it has a 240p VC machine.

Gamecube... I am not familioar enough with this one. I don't know what percentage of it's games support 480p.So it's hard for me to forge an opinion on this one.

What makes the DC so awesome in 480p? Is it the percentage of titles that support progressive scan, or the quality of the output? I do have a PC CRT, but playing local coop Phantasy Star on a 19' monitor just aint gonna cut it, so LCD does sound sensible. The only barrier for me is that I'm quite sensitive to input lag, so if anyone has a recommended method to measure it, I'd be grateful.

*EDIT Something I forgot to ask everyone that may seem like a stupid question; if I have my Wii hooked up to my LCD running in 480p, and I boot a Gamecube title that does NOT support 480p natively, will it switch my LCD's output to 480i for that title, or force 480p? The reason I ask this is that I use my Wii to play Gamecube titles due to the readily available Wii component cables, and only use my Gamecube for the GB Player.

[Guspaz]

Sharper/more detailed image and no interlacing artifacts, although most side-by-side comparisons that I can find are comparing either composite/vga or composite/s-video, not s-video/vga.

[FinalBaton]

What makes the DC so awesome in 480p? Is it the percentage of titles that support progressive scan, or the quality of the output?

Both

The vast majority of DC games support 480p natively (between 80% and 90% is what I had calculated last time I checked). And with a modern VGA box from Beharbros, like the Kuro or Toro, you can force the remaining titles in the library to 480p, therefore achieving 480p output with 99% of the system's games.

And also : it's VGA output is razor sharp. It's of excellent quality and since it's RGB, it's a taaaaad better than component (this latter aspect doesn't account for that much : an excellent component signal will look very, very close toan RGB one. But add to that the fact that the quality of the signal itself is pristine(whereas some other consoles' is not) and you get a gorgeous 480p picture).
And as Guspaz said : compared to 480i you get no interlacing artifacts, a picture that's more crisp and more defined.

[austin532]

The 6th gen is that weird middle ground after the retro systems but before the HD systems and can be tough to choose what TV to use.

DC: If you are using VGA then a CRT Monitor or older HDTV with VGA is the way to go. Seriously it's by far the best looking. Otherwise a CRT TV.
PS2: I would use a CRT as most games are 480i and graphically it's the weakest and most jaggy of the 4 systems from that generation.
GC: Either one is fine as long as your TV has a good upscaler. A good amount of popular GC games support 480p.
XBOX: HDTV is a good way to go as most games support 480p while some even support 720p and even 1080i. Plus since XBOX games support Dolby Digital you can hook it up to your AV Receiver which is most likely already hooked up to your HDTV.

As far as the Wii which is basically a 6th gen system I would say either one is fine just like the GC. Almost all Wii games support 480p. I can't think of any frame specific games on the Wii so a little bit of lag should be ok.

[tacoguy64]

We should also add that the GC has fantastic S-video and even good composite quality output. There was a thread on here with a plasma tv that would actually by a really nice tv to get if you only doing 6th gen and up consoles. The downside to it was that it only did 720p but even it should still look good in 720p for current gen systems.

And yes there is a night and day difference between the DC composite and vga inputs. VGA DC games look absolutely brilliant. BeharBros products are expensive but worth every penny if you are a fan of the system.

[nissling]

The Dreamcast does indeed have fantastic 480p video. It's not just very sharp but incredibly clean and vivid, completely different to the Playstation 2 or GameCube. And it will look great on any display that supports the resolution.

[kamiboy]

To my eyes fixed resolution displays like LCD and Plasma look horrendous when displaying anything not rendered at their native resolution. This is particularly bad for 1080p screens when fed anything rendered below 720p natively. So for any game displaying at 480p and lower I roll strictly CRT. But wasn't there just another thread asking the exact same question?

[Einzelherz]

We should also add that the GC has fantastic S-video and even good composite quality output. There was a thread on here with a plasma tv that would actually by a really nice tv to get if you only doing 6th gen and up consoles. The downside to it was that it only did 720p but even it should still look good in 720p for current gen systems.

And yes there is a night and day difference between the DC composite and vga inputs. VGA DC games look absolutely brilliant. BeharBros products are expensive but worth every penny if you are a fan of the system.

My GC color bleeds a bit on S-video. It's not terrible though.

[panzeroceania]

Both Rec.601 and Rec.709 display standards were designed around CRT monitors so you should use a CRT on all of these. Only recently with the latest consoles with HDR has that changed