GamerGate - and it's continuing aftermath.

[BIL]

lmao Brianna. Our heroine takes on Pokemon The Hard Corps, then finishes with a big slam off the top rope of industry privilege:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

To the tune of "Oh Susanna"

Oh! Brianna
You're unemployed and lazy
Oh! Brianna
Those shitlords going crazy

[Skykid]

I'd much sooner ask Prometheus about DDP mechanics than a collector with a full PCB kit and a bomb-spamming 1ALL shitclear.

*Raises hand.*

That's me (minus the FK).

But I achieved that shitclear in about 5 credits.

Any cred?

[EmperorIng]

To get real cred, you need to upload youtube reviews of you playing the game shittily (bomb-spamming at times that don't even require them), explaining its mechanics shittily, or rather being unaware they exist, and finally make lame jokes like failing to pronounce its Japanese name over and over again. Then you will be a professional youtube gamer.

"Huh, huh, Dodo N' Patchy is like, uh, one of those cuh-raaazy Japanese games that are designed, huh, huh to suck your quarters out of your soul."

-clip of flailing wildly against the first midboss-

"as, huh, you can see, Doody Patch -snort- is one of a genre called "bullet hell" and they mean it! Look at all thissss. CRAP you have to DODGE"

-uses three bombs-

"it only gets harder from here on out folks"

4,532 views
4 likes, 1 dislike

[BIL]

You will forever have mad gamer cred in my book, Sky Boy. The Proms and Jaimases of this forum are our crack wetworks unit / nuclear option for their areas of specialty, that's all. ;3

[Skykid]

Actually I retract the admission in part.

I didn't bomb spam *much*. I'm a terrible bomber. I suck at bombing. When I go down in flames it's nearly always accompanied by despairing flick of the eyes to the bomb rack, all plump and full, destined never to become.

In Lie Huo last week the SDOJ expert was guiding me over my shoulder and saying "you need to use those bombs". Words to live by.

So yeah, I didn't bomb spaz like a bitch on Dodon, I played like a baws and seem to remember bomb spamming the shit out of last two bosses and danger spots in the last two stages. Otherwise I smacked up that 1st loop with a shitty score - but in record time.

Speed killed it. I is proud.

[BIL]

And that's great. BUT consider this:

a madman has tied you up, with your cockerel laid out beneath a massive guillotine device. He instructs you to select one member of this community to be your champion in a credit of CAVE's arcade game DoDonPachi, with a certain score quota to be met. It is attainable only by a player capable of clearing both loops at minimum. If the quota is met, your todger will be released unharmed. If not, you're gonna be short one wiener. I hear that's political cachet these days but let's focus on the present.

Who do you choose, Prom or [PCB owner with a 1-ALL] ? CHOOSE CAREFULLY, YOUR WINKY IS QUITE LITERALLY ON THE LINE

[Volteccer_Jack]

So one of the best-selling videogame franchises ever, second to Mario and probably nothing else, doesn't have mass appeal? If that's the argument I want to hear an explanation of how videogames ever became popular in the first place. Was everyone just out of their minds on cocaine in the late 80s? Illuminati mind control? A patriarchy plot to invent a new way for men to annoy their girlfriends?

Also nobody fucking memorizes that chart. You just learn which ones your absurdly over-levelled Charizard is weak to so you can switch it out for Pikachu as necessary.

[Bananamatic]

I could trial and error my way through pokemon yellow with my sister back in the day when I was 9, didn't know english, neither did my dad or mom, didn't read the manual and we had no internet or guides or friends who had the game as well

and the new games are even more accessible and streamlined
how can you be an adult game dev capable of programming and know english and find pokemon too hard

[Giest118]

I think her point is that "normal people" would find it too hard. She's saying that the masses are shit. Which is demonstrably true.

But it's also true that the masses would never pick up a 3DS in the first place because they would be afraid of catching "the weebz," so it's a moot point either way.

[Bananamatic]

How is "water beats fire" too hard?
Even then, you don't need to learn anything, you can just trial and error and figure out stuff on your own what works against which pokemon
Even if you lose a battle, you only lose a bit of your money compared to the 50% it was back in the day, so you don't even need to remember to save before big battles anymore

the modern games even throw items at you that used to be extremely rare back in the day for free now and some are broken to the extent of giving you 350% effective experience for no effort, and you get those items through story progression automatically, no need to use guides or anything

the games are recommended for 3+ year olds for a reason

[Giest118]

I think you're underestimating how shitty the masses are.

But even if that wasn't a factor, she's still coming from a misguided place. The popularity of Pokemon Go does not mean that the core series games are obligated to be made "more accessible." Pokemon Go is already there for people who just want a casual time. New fans can head over to the main series if they want to get more from the experience... which is exactly what the main series gives you: a more involved Pokemon experience.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Back in the day I routinely lost to "the masses" in Pokemon link battles because I had an immaculately assembled team of level 50-70 Pokemon, while they had whichever Pokemon was their favorite levelled to 100, along with 2-3 filler HM users. I cannot accept the idea that Pokemon is "too hard" for anyone. Too dorky and/or Japanese? Sure.

Pokemon Go isn't successful because it is casual, lol. I know people who don't even play real video games who obsess over that shit and spend hours watching Youtube videos to learn how to play it better. Pokemon Go is successful because it's on a console with an install base of "literally everyone under the age of 80", and because it is free to play, and because the Pokemon brand name was already hugely successful and popular.

[Bananamatic]

I routinely lost to pokemon stadium round 2 AI because I imported my own pokemon from the games which sucked even more than the rental ones somehow

then I turned to the internet and discovered the wonders of eugenics in pokemon games and built a kick ass team and beat it in one go without losing once
sieg heil and god bless the master race

[Squire Grooktook]

I think her point is that "normal people" would find it too hard. She's saying that the masses are shit. Which is demonstrably true.

I think you're underestimating how shitty the masses are.

I think you're completely out of touch with the modern game market.

Shmups and arcade games are way too hard for the masses. Yes. Contra 1 is too hard for the masses. Yes. But we're not talking about Shmups or Contra.

The stuff Nintendo and the general AAA market pelts out these days is not too hard for anyone. As attested by the fact that they sell really fucking well. These games are designed so that you can't lose or get stuck too long if you have more than one hand, and that's exactly the way they play.

Pokemon was never too hard for anyone. And it still isn't.

[Giest118]

I enjoy the fact that we both think Brianna Wu is wrong, and our disagreement is just over the exact way in which she's wrong.

It means that there's dimensions to her bullshit.

[BIL]

Entire universes, honestly.

I can't wait to see how the Kickstarter thing plays out. After burning hundreds of thousands of other people's dollars on failed animation and gaming projects, might Wu at last face minor consequence?!

GG is the best soap opera ever imo.

[Skykid]

And that's great. BUT consider this:

a madman has tied you up, with your cockerel laid out beneath a massive guillotine device. He instructs you to select one member of this community to be your champion in a credit of CAVE's arcade game DoDonPachi, with a certain score quota to be met. It is attainable only by a player capable of clearing both loops at minimum. If the quota is met, your todger will be released unharmed. If not, you're gonna be short one wiener. I hear that's political cachet these days but let's focus on the present.

Who do you choose, Prom or [PCB owner with a 1-ALL] ? CHOOSE CAREFULLY, YOUR WINKY IS QUITE LITERALLY ON THE LINE

DrTrouserplank, my cockeroo is in your hands.

[BIL]

DTP would definitely produce the most entertaining post-run commentary. I wonder what he's been up to lately?

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[Skykid]

lmao Brianna. Our heroine takes on Pokemon The Hard Corps, then finishes with a big slam off the top rope of industry privilege:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Lololol

"I have thoughts. As a professional game making womyn of influence, Pokémon is too hard and the 3DS game committed the GAME DESIGN RPGEE SIN OF NOT TELLING YOU EXACTLY WHAT TO DO NEXT."

I'm really going to play Rev60. Going to 1LC that jazz.

[atheistgod1999]

You know, on July 4th last summer, my parents had 4 friends (2 couples) over, and they made me do stuff with their kids. I took them into my room to play Super Mario Bros, and neither of them could beat World 1. Both of them played video games, by the way.

[Squire Grooktook]

AG1999 not allowed to pitch into our discussions till he 1-all's Dodonpachi on an emulator*

[Ed Oscuro]

lost my shit at the last comparison - cosplayer looks more like bulimia.com

No, absolutely not!

I'm not arguing against the rest of your post, but in the very last comparison I posted, the cosplayer's waist definitely looks more like the altered version of the Zelda character, so I think they aren't too far off there. Of course being turned at the waist (which appears to be the main point of that comparison) could exaggerate the thin appearance of the original but it still strikes me as unrealistic. Beyond that, yeah, most of the Bulimia campaign's edits appear to be pointlessly blowing up the BMI.

I don't really know what bulimia.com's goals are here, but they probably can be forgiven for a bit of exaggeration. Put it this way: If you go online to read about some health topics, it's very easy to get scared and have an exaggerated belief in the severity of some symptoms - and includes being (or just appearing) mildly obese. If somebody simply has a higher BMI it's not possible to immediately say that poses a risk to the health of the individual - it's not the only thing to consider and one definitely shouldn't be purging to try and bring down weight. bulimia.com's clearly worried about people looking at body weight as the only thing that matters.

[Obscura]

I think her point is that "normal people" would find it too hard. She's saying that the masses are shit. Which is demonstrably true.

I think you're underestimating how shitty the masses are.

I think you're completely out of touch with the modern game market.

Shmups and arcade games are way too hard for the masses. Yes. Contra 1 is too hard for the masses. Yes. But we're not talking about Shmups or Contra.

Dark Souls continues to sell lots of copies. So do "e-sports" oriented multiplayer games, and getting good at any multiplayer game is always going to be harder than learning Contra 1 or Castlevania 3 or whatever other game was popular back in the day.

[Squire Grooktook]

Dark Souls has leveling and exploration and content and lets you theoretically kill anything just by sticking with it. There's no mandatory skill summit to be surpassed in those games, nor true punishment for failure, only what you set for yourself. It could be thought of as a credit feeding vs 1cc mentality, but the fact is the game still offers much for those who aren't interested in challenge.

Either that, or you can kill anything with co op which butchers even the hardest bosses. There's a few videos out there of a dude just sitting down in the middle of an arena and never getting hit while 3 buddies murder the boss for him. And even with all these concessions, Dark Souls is still (rightfully) considered something of an aberration compared to its contemporaries.

If Dark Souls was one linear level after another with one path, no rpg elements, no exploration, no multiplayer elements, no lore, and an arcade-like "boot you back to the beginning" on death, I sincerely doubt it would be remotely popular or profitable. Even if the raw challenges were made easier than they actually are.

Multiplayer stuff has a social element which both pleases people without investment whilst simultaneously encouraging them to invest at their own (or their friends) pace (which in the majority case, is very slow and very low). It's not directly comparable to single player gameplay and never will.

[Skykid]

Multiplayer current/recent gen is the same learning and achievement stable as FTGs are and always were. It requires a different kind of practice that revolves around being knowledgeable enough to outwit a human opponent.

That's commendable, but still not the same as learning to clear tougher classics on a credit or a life. Although the latter is an achievement anyone can accomplish with time and repetition, I still think some of the multiplayer kings weaned on Halo and WoW would struggle to get to grips with arcade challenges in the same way.

[Squire Grooktook]

I know some dudes who are better than me at our fighters of choice.

But they get skullfucked hard when we play twinkle star sprites.

"his bomb use instincts are too strong"

[Obscura]

Dark Souls has leveling and exploration and content and lets you theoretically kill anything just by sticking with it. There's no mandatory skill summit to be surpassed in those games, nor true punishment for failure, only what you set for yourself. It could be thought of as a credit feeding vs 1cc mentality, but the fact is the game still offers much for those who aren't interested in challenge.

Either that, or you can kill anything with co op which butchers even the hardest bosses. There's a few videos out there of a dude just sitting down in the middle of an arena and never getting hit while 3 buddies murder the boss for him. And even with all these concessions, Dark Souls is still (rightfully) considered something of an aberration compared to its contemporaries.

If Dark Souls was one linear level after another with one path, no rpg elements, no exploration, no multiplayer elements, no lore, and an arcade-like "boot you back to the beginning" on death, I sincerely doubt it would be remotely popular or profitable. Even if the raw challenges were made easier than they actually are.

Multiplayer stuff has a social element which both pleases people without investment whilst simultaneously encouraging them to invest at their own (or their friends) pace (which in the majority case, is very slow and very low). It's not directly comparable to single player gameplay and never will.

Dark Souls 2 limits how much you can grind and makes summoning another player require using an expendable item that there's a finite number of.

Bayonetta did pretty well, DMC 3 and 4 did well, and MGR:R did well. There's your single-player no-exploration skill-based games with only the lightest of RPG elements. DMC 3 US/EU versions even boot you back to the start of the stage on death, and the longer stages in that game are as long as some shorter arcade clears.

[Squire Grooktook]

We've had this discussion before, so I'm not going to get dragged into the endless back and forth again, but all of those games (with the exception of maybe dmc3, and times have changed since the near decade when dmc3 was released) offer a number of ways to bypass their challenges (easier modes, stockable healing items, extra stats that can be grinded for, etc.) as well as other forms of enjoyment and content beyond simple challenge gauntlets.

They make compromises and concessions for players seeking different kinds of experiences, which is what you have to do if you want to have the potential for mass appeal. That's not a bad thing, mind you. With some clever structure and design, you can very easily give kiddies the tools to surf through, whilst allowing an optional 1cc-esque experience for dedicated players (which is exactly what Dark Souls and pretty much all Platinum titles do). But games that don't make those concessions and don't make offerings to players uninterested in pure gauntlets are inevitably going to be niche outside of flukes caused by other factors (ie Touhou's millions of fans who don't play the game, etc.).

[Skykid]

Stating the obvious there's always a literal handful of modern games anyone ever references for above average difficulty (and you've already namedropped most of them).

I also don't really consider Bayonetta or DMC 3 to be crazy difficult to beat. Difficult to master, sure. I'd throw Vanquish in that pile too. But as Grooktook said, they still make knowing concessions to appeal to the mass market, which consists mostly of unskilled punters.

[Obscura]

(Note that this post was written for the pre-edit version of Squire's post.)

Honestly, I find MGR harder than any Dark Souls game, even using every healing item that it shits at me. The Armstrong and Monsoon bossfights alone are tougher than any DS checkpoint.

The games that are considered "classics" on the NES didn't require a level of skill anything like an arcade 1cc. The Contras gave you four credits, and aren't nearly as hard as an arcade Run 'n Gun. Castlevania 3 is close to arcade difficulty for a 1cc (partially because of its extreme length), but gives you passwords and all the continues you want. Ninja Gaiden gives you all the continues you want. And, even in those days, Contra and Castlevania were considered fucking hard by most players. Yes, on this forum, we know better, but I can open any of my old "hint books" from the era and see them mentioning how Contra, Super C, and Castlevania 1 and 3 are incredibly difficult.

You mentioned those games having flashy visuals and lush environments to explore, but '80s games did as much of that as they could with the technology. Look at Strider for an excellent example. That game was a fucking thrill ride in 1989.

Skykid -- aren't you in Asia? The original Western releases of DMC 3 are quite a bit tougher than the Japanese release (or the Western re-editions), with no mid-level checkpoints, and the difficulties all set one level higher (so Western "Normal" is JP "Hard").