Extron RGB 192V Issue

[daskrabs]

I'm trying to downscale a 480p VGA signal from an Xbox 360 to a 240p signal for PVM per the Extron RGB method described here:

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

I have an Extron VSC 100, which I've verified is converting 480p to 480i. I'm feeding that into an Extron RGB 192V, which is supposed to be converting 480i to 240p via the DDSP dip, but I can't get any of my PVMs to sync to it. Tried all different settings and cables. RGB seems to be coming through ok, but the sync is off. Does anyone have this or a similar unit working correctly?

[Fudoh]

I would start by comfirming that - for example - a 480p input, 480p output works fine on the interface.

Also, why do you use a VSC100 unit if the 360 will output 480i on its own using a RGB cable ?

[daskrabs]

OK, I'll verify 480p.

The VSC was practically free, so it was cheaper than getting the cabling for the SCART method. I just want proof of concept at this point.

Also, the input on the 192V is VGA, and I'd have to split the sync from S into HV.

[daskrabs]

Verified the 192V alone works on my VGA monitor. Verified that the VSC 100/RGB 192V combo works on my PVM-8041Q, but not my 3230. No Idea why. I'm not sure that the the image coming out of the 192V is 240p, even with the DDSP dip set. The tube is small, but I can see the bottom video line flickering, which leads me to believe that it's still interlaced (480i). I'm gonna test on a larger but similar 20" PVM later, which should show interlacing flicker better.

[daskrabs]

The image coming out of the 192V is definitely interlaced. The DDSP dip shifts the image horizontally, but doesn't force 240p. I'm about ready to give up on the project, as I've sunk enough time and money into it. 15KHz 480i isn't so bad for Cave stuff, right? Can anyone suggest a different cost-effective 480i to 240p solution?

[Fudoh]

It's weird since the 192V is an extremely popular model and I would surprised if nobody else was using it for that purpose.

Just let me check the most obvious hurdle: of course you're using the PROCESSED BNC outputs on the 192V and not the UNPROCESSED monitor loop output, right?

[daskrabs]

It's weird since the 192V is an extremely popular model and I would surprised if nobody else was using it for that purpose.

Just let me check the most obvious hurdle: of course you're using the PROCESSED BNC outputs on the 192V and not the UNPROCESSED monitor loop output, right?

Yes, using BNC outs.

[daskrabs]

After doing a little research, I'm thinking that the 1XX and 4XX series of RGB interfaces do not have the vertical shift feature needed for 240p, but rather only horizontal. The 20X series looks like they all have the vertical shift, as does the 580xi model. Can anyone confirm that models besides 201rxi work to obtain 240p? Since DDSP alone is not the determinant of this feature, could it be the "V-Sync Width" dip?

Fudoh, you may wanna update your webpage to reflect this.

[Fudoh]

What exactly do you mean by vertical shift function? The 580xi doesn't have any shifting controls and it's confirmed doing the 480i to 240p conversion.

DDSP most definitely isn't responsible for the feature, since - if you change the internal sync on the 201/203 - "the 480i/240p function" using the DDSP switch reverses (if the Interface would output by enabling DDSP, it will now output 240p when disabling it).

[daskrabs]

What exactly do you mean by vertical shift function? The 580xi doesn't have any shifting controls and it's confirmed doing the 480i to 240p conversion.

DDSP most definitely isn't responsible for the feature, since - if you change the internal sync on the 201/203 - "the 480i/240p function" using the DDSP switch reverses (if the Interface would output by enabling DDSP, it will now output 240p when disabling it).

From here (your site, right?):

So, what's all this talk about magically tweaking the UVC and Emotia units ? And what's a RGB interface anyway ? Well, Extron's RGB interfaces are usually meant for remotely connecting a PC or notebook to a projector. Imagine a classroom with a beamer mounted in the back and the professor standing in the front connecting this notebook to a locally mounted RGB interface instead of directly to the beamer. Most the RGB interfaces have a set of BNC outputs for running long cables and one or more HD15 VGA input to connect a local source.

There are at least two dozen of different interfaces from Extron. Small ones like the 190, bigger ones like the 580, others with multiple inputs like the 203 or multiple outputs like the 164. The cheaper ones start at $20, while the bigger ones can be $100 and more. On eBay just search for "Extron RGB" to get a variety of interfaces listed. All of the interfaces do sync processing and can be used to convert a 480i signal into a 240p one (more on that below), but only some have a vertical picture shift and that is what's needed for tweaking a UVC or Emotia unit.

So, let's focus on the tweaking first: as said above, both the UVC and the Emotia average two input lines into a single output line, but unfortunately they start with line 2 and merge it with line 3. If you imagine classic low-res titles running line-doubled on a 360 (like Mushihimesama Futari or ESPGaluda II in their original arcade modes), lines 1 and 2 are identical and so are 3 and 4 (and so on). Merging lines 2 and 3 on the other hand, causes a certain bluriness and lack of sharpness. Many titles (like Futari) can be adjusted with in-game options: by moving the screen one line up or down, you'll notice a visible increase in sharpness. If your source can't be adjusted, you can use one of the Extron interfaces (with vertical shift) to do this externally. Just put the RGB interface between your source and the UVC/Emotia and shift the signal using the centering controls. This will oh-so magically increase the sharpness of your output a lot !

If I'm misunderstanding this concept, please explain. Thanks for the response.

Also, I thought this implied the DDSP switch was the feature in question:

The Extron interfaces can also be used for a completely different approach: using a sync processing dip switch on the back, an incoming 480i RGB signal can be converted to 240p by adding a simple line offset. This simply tells the monitor to remove the line offset between the fields, handling the interlaced fields like progressive frames instead. This is by no means an official feature of those interfaces, but merely an accident, since the units were simply not created for interlaced 15khz signals. There are two caveats though: first this only works on CRTs which don't apply digital processing. It works great on arcade cabs, Sony PVM and BVM sets, most 90s TV sets, but likely not on newer TV sets and not if you want to feed your newly gained 240p signal into another upscaler. Second, if your source isn't a linedoubled 240p title, but a true hi-res game, then the resulting image will be 240p, but it will show a certain amount of flicker. Still much better than actually connecting a 480i source directly to your monitor. Extron RGB interfaces require a clean sync signal, so a sync stripper might be required on the input side. This might sound complicated, but at only $20 for the cheaper interfaces, that's definitely the cheapest way to true 240p on your arcade cab.

[Fudoh]

If I'm misunderstanding this concept, please explain.

the vertical shift function on the interfaces is required if you want to tweak an EMOTIA or UVC to produce a better output. Here the interface is just used with 480p input and output.

Also, I thought this implied the DDSP switch was the feature in question:

The DDSP *switch* is used to toggle the 480i/240p conversion, but not the function behind it (since, as said, you can "put" the 240p output option on either the on or off position of the switch by toggling the internal sync of the interface).

[daskrabs]

If I'm misunderstanding this concept, please explain.

the vertical shift function on the interfaces is required if you want to tweak an EMOTIA or UVC to produce a better output. Here the interface is just used with 480p input and output.

Also, I thought this implied the DDSP switch was the feature in question:

The DDSP *switch* is used to toggle the 480i/240p conversion, but not the function behind it (since, as said, you can "put" the 240p output option on either the on or off position of the switch by toggling the internal sync of the interface).

Thanks for explaining. Getting back to my previous point though, the 1XX and 4XX RGB devices don't perform the conversion, in my research. My own 192V definitely doesn't, and the others mentioned are very similar. Obviously your 201 does, as should the other 20X devices, and if you say 580 does, I'm inclined to believe you. I think that's worth noting all this on your site. If you or anyone else can show me what I'm doing wrong with my 192V, I'd appreciate it. Pretty sure I've tried every combination of settings and cablings.

[Fudoh]

Maybe you should look for the original thread here on the board explaining the whole thing. It wasn't my finding. The first units mentioned were the 580 ones. 109xi is confirmed as well.

[SpiderWaffle]

Does the 202 rxi work for 240p?
This curiously only lists the 201 and 203 rxi:
http://retrorgb.com/extronrxi.html

But seems they are all the same but with 1, 2 and 3 inputs respectively:
http://www.extron.com/product/product.a ... 01rxi#desc
http://www.extron.com/product/product.a ... 01rxi#desc
http://www.extron.com/product/product.a ... 01rxi#desc

Why is the 202 peculiarly absent from mention?

Thanks!

[FinalBaton]

Why is the 202 peculiarly absent from mention?

It's probably a less popular unit since it has a 9-pin RGB port, instead of a more traditional D-Sub 15 one. Maybe that's why no one reviewed it yet.

But member Orange808 on here has one, so maybe you can ask him to test on his unit

[SpiderWaffle]

Why is the 202 peculiarly absent from mention?

It's probably a less popular unit since it has a 9-pin RGB port

Wow your right, didn't notice. That is rather odd of Extron to design just that one like that, It even needs Female DB9 to make it even more weird.

One user here says it has strict input requirements, 2Vpp for the sync line, which is A LOT of volts. (NESRGB only does ~.5V, which is enough for almost every production monitor)
http://scarthunter.blogspot.com/2013/05 ... xtron.html

Also, user Overkill here found it wouldn't work with his syncstrike's input, I'm guessing also not enough volts. His dreamcast directly though, amazingly was enough volts to work great:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42642

hrmm... Extron why