Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[electricgrave]

I just cleared Ninja Spirit PC Engine Mode, no continues, lost 3 lives, all at the "Ninja Abyss" before the Final Boss, I know what to do to drop unscathed but it takes me a few tries to land it just right. I think I can pull off a No Death Run but still on PC Engine Mode. For now I'm gonna try to clear Arcade Mode.

Hi Score: 560100

[BIL]

Chafes me slightly how the PCE port downgrades the st3 boss from a fun jump-rope groove to a near non-event by removing his support zako, but keeps st7.2 more or less the same blatant memoriser it is on PCB. 3: Still, fantastic port and game in its own right. AC mode doesn't reach the PCB's most hellish extremes in st6 or st7.1, but it's no picnic either! A deadlier challenge than many typically cited hard console sidescrollers.

Besides the infamous ninja pit pratfall, my only stage design criticism is st2 - I wish they'd dispensed with the forest floor in its latter half. Feels like a missed opportunity for some classic flying squirrel action, so I like trying to go from branch to branch there. Fighting the boss with "no floor" rules feels almost like something out of Kamui Gaiden or Ninja Scroll.

Have you played the PCE port of Hero Tonma? Another very solid effort from them - not as harrowing as Ninja Spirit, but much more of a foot-to-the-floor blaster than the cutesy aesthetic might suggest. Has a real "STG on foot" thing once you're rocking a nice big wave shot and grenades. I've a personal affection for all five of IREM's M7x->HuCard ports, tbh, but the almost parodically cruel Image Fight aside I recommend 'em all wholeheartedly on standalone terms. I like PCE Image Fight but won't be held responsible for it. ;3

[Ex_Mosquito]

Nice work. Beware, the arcade mode is a totally different beast, the PC-Engine mode is significantly easier than arcade mode. I was talking to a friend about this the other week, I personally I feel that Irem diluted the difficulty a little too much for the PC-Engine mode. Giving the player the ability to withstand 5-hits while also reducing the enemy count of the arcade-mode (no Samurai on ST4, reduced Monk spawns etc..) was a step too far. The sweet spot I feel would be to keep the arcade-mode enemy spawns and give the player a 3-hit energy bar. Doing what Irem did to the PC-Engine mode destroyed the finely tuned balance of a 1-hit kill survival fest of the arcade PCB.

*The ninja pit still takes the piss, though :/

[BrianC]

I find it interesting how even the US TG-16 version of Ninja Spirit has the mode as "PC Engine Mode".

[EmperorIng]

TTI gave the least amount of effort possible in localizing PCE games. Ninja Spirit doesn't even translate the in-between stage splashes. PCE localizations in general were a disgrace.

I think they blew all their money into making Ys 1&2 a masterpiece, and then that was it!

[BrianC]

TTI gave the least amount of effort possible in localizing PCE games. Ninja Spirit doesn't even translate the in-between stage splashes. PCE localizations in general were a disgrace.

At least nothing was messed with.

[electricgrave]

I admit the PCE mode wasn't that hard to clear, all the times I've played the game before I didn't apply myself so I thought the game was hard, specially on the Ninja Pitfall, I've gotten there before (credit feeding of course) to no avail, it wasn't until I actually decided to make good on beating the game that I finally took my time figuring out the pit. Also the extends are pretty generous, I think I got 3 along the way. I seriously thought the game had more to go after the Ninja Pit but little did I know the ending was near which was rather bittersweet.

I hear you guys loud and clear on the big differences between PCE Mode and AC Mode, also I understand the actual PCB is a lot harder, I've played the rom in MAME and I've always wanted the PCB, it's way up there though and that's if you actually find it for sale. So for now I'll just be content with emulation, I do plan on working on the PCB but I figured clearing the Card would be a nice primer to sharpen my resilience. I'm far from where I'd like to be in skill, I've done some feats but nothing out of the ordinary for gamers like us.

I found myself relying a lot on 2 weapons. Dynamite and the Hook, I did use the shurikens in a couple of spots, specifically in the 3rd stage where the gunmen crouch to shot, I find the hook does it well but the giants pop and it can be a burden as the shurikens dispose of the giants much quicker, even better with the dynamite but the gunmen are missed by it at less you set them on the floor before hand.

I've never played the Gameboy port, it seems pricey, is it any good?! I doubt it, I checked some videos with the different ports made, surprisingly there's a lot of ports for this game and most of them follow the Arcade board with the weapon display/hud, too bad the PCE only shows one weapon at a time.

Thanks for the kind words, Mosquito and as usual thanks BIL for the recommends and the info on things, this thread delivers!

[BIL]

I was experimenting with shuriken/bombs in Arcade Mode's st3.1, recently - despite not killing giants as quickly, IMO chain is most definitely the way to go. It'll completely neutralise both rifles (a standing attack will snuff even their low shots - no need to crouch) and katanas (hold [up] after the standing attack, and you'll combo directly into an overhead swing that'll clear the air and stomp any pursuers in one sweep). Slightly longer-lived giants aren't as deadly as the bullets and katanas that'll be flying without chain coverage.

Although chain won't kill giants quite as quickly, once you know their weakness (they slash at regular intervals, and are harmless during the interim) it's a cinch getting past 'em while delivering the killing blows from above (especially if you can snag the Shield powerup an orange katana will always drop somewhere around the second giant). Let 'em whiff, rush in close - they're safe to touch when they're not attacking, like all humanoid enemies - and leap clear.

Strictly speaking you could just run past the giants, but that's obviously lame! ;3 Note there's a BIG difference in the PCB - they attack when you enter their lethal range there, so you'll need to actively bait them instead of waiting for a window.

Chain and Bomb are pretty much the game's power duo - sword has some limited use (I prefer it for st3.2's marsh), but is largely obviated by the former. AFAIK, Shuriken have neither the raw concentrated power nor splash to handle st4+st6's charging samurai.

The GB port looks kind of cute, but (especially with its rarity and cost) nothing I'm compelled by. I do love the slightly shifty-lookin' walk animation. Your dude and his shadows verve along rather furtively.

[Vludi]

Katana is completely worthless in the later levels, although i like to use it on the first two levels for fun .
This is my setup for stage 3 onwards:

3: Kusarigama all the way, excelent protection from projectiles while you bait the major enemies with jumps (Giants and Kasa guys). Bombs on the boss.
4.1: Bomb is mandatory here because of the purple ninjas, pretty useful with samurais too.
4.2: No purple ninjas here so shurikens are a better option than bombs: better spread, fire rate and kill samurais faster.
4.3: Katana or Kusarigama for the corridor, then bombs on the boss.
5: Kusarigama for everything, included the boss
6: Same here, this is the hardest level in the game with tons of projectiles so kusarigama is mandatory. Bombs on the boss.
7.1: Shurikens for the samurais, swap to bombs on the mid boss and then shurikens again.
7.2: (Ninja pit): Spamming Kusarigama here is pretty useful for some slowdowns if you need it, if you want some points bomb is better. Bombs for the final boss.

The most difficult parts for me are st4.1, st6 and the final boss, the rest of the game (included the pit) is very doable with enough practice.

[electricgrave]

I agree with BIL and with most of what you said above except for...

The Ninja Abyss...AKA the PIT, AKA WTF POS DAMN IT!...spot.

In my case I use no weapons, I just drop and travel diagonally almost all the way to the left, in there I'm in a constant left-right maneuvering trying to stay within that area which is pretty thin, I've tried bombs and sword to parry but it's so had and conflicting, I admit I haven't tried the Hook/Chain/Kugarasomethingishy, but next time I will to see what transpires.

[BIL]

The PCE port's Ninja Pit is actually worse than the PCB's. Less viewable playfield and no background markers make an already blatant memory test even less palatable. However, they also added an easy route that's a little tricky to set up at first, but very repeatable with a bit of practice.

Animated GIF, slowed down a little:

Spoiler

Basically you want to fall off the ledge and immediately pull [left] hard, then back off slightly to avoid slamming into the first ninja. Graze him to ensure you'll miss the second, then resume heading left down the path shown. Upon exiting, you're good to get within a character width of the wall. Job done, just chill. It's dead easy with a bit of credit feeding practice - as shown, there's a decent bit of give in the hitboxes. Swinging the sword helps with spacing, I find.

The PCE's smaller resolution makes st5's cliff face trickier than the PCB too. It's more important to work out a safe route, as you won't see gas traps coming from as far away. OTOH, the stage's real danger on PCB is the time limit. PCE doesn't have one, so it largely evens out.

I used to find the PCE one's lack of status bar a little awkward, but when I realised just how much smaller the viewable playfield is I was glad they ditched it. As I do with other GUI-less "one way switchers" like Batman, I pretty much just memorise the requisite taps to go between weapons. IE, Bomb to Chain is one tap. Chain to Bomb is three. It works out fairly well with Irem's characteristic focus on practiced routing.

[Durandal]

AM2R has been released, without getting C&D'd!
http://metroid2remake.blogspot.hr/2016/ ... d.html?m=1

[BIL]

Aww sheeit.

Spoiler

Only a casual fan of Metroid but grabbed the download anyway. I grew to love M2 after digesting the initially over-CTRLV'd map enough for single-session runs.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Metroid II has a special place in my heart as my first Metroid game. First impression after 15 minutes is that it's good but not as good as the original, mostly because the bad clunky Zero Mission jump, but also because the isolation and disquiet of the original is lacking.

[Ed Oscuro]

The PCE port's Ninja Pit is actually worse than the PCB's. Less viewable playfield and no background markers make an already blatant memory test even less palatable.

I still kind of puzzle over all the rampant hate for this...it seemed doable to me.

I think it actually compares favorably with the jumps of faith and bottomless pits in the Street Alley (Revenge of Shinobi 2-2). Precise placement means the difference between Fake Lee hitting you on the way up or down, getting bounced into a pit, or just doing fine. I still find that a fun stage, though for some reason I wasn't super enthusiastic about it today - or Shinobi III, which doesn't really seem to gel for me with such a blatant training level for the first stage, while also relying on flying jump kick spam in some later areas.

[Vludi]

The ninja pit isn't a problem when you figure it out, you just have to take the time to memorize it. The final boss is much more dangerous.

[BIL]

The PCE port's Ninja Pit is actually worse than the PCB's. Less viewable playfield and no background markers make an already blatant memory test even less palatable.

I still kind of puzzle over all the rampant hate for this...it seemed doable to me.

It's despicable on a few levels imo. It's a memory test so literal it verges on satire. No place for tactics, nor really technique - just a long series of inputs to be memorised and regurgitated back with zero margin for error. A series of flashing lights that dropped a taiko drum on your head for the wrong response wouldn't have the pit's eerie cool, but it'd be about the same mechanically.

It's also godawful design from a game that up to that point (and immediately after!) perfectly matches lunar handling to intense action. Twitch reaction simply isn't an option in Ninja Spirit - the character can't respond quickly enough. 99% of the game understands this feature, and marshals it into a nightmarish thrill. Leaps are to be carefully plotted out and steered, with weapons allowing a small margin of error. 1% is the ninja pit where there's no time to plot and no means of defense, rote memorisation the only solution.

It's a total black eye on an otherwise great game. I'd love to read some dev commentary. I can't imagine any happy explanation but it'd at least give some closure. Execs wanted a coin trap? Game rushed out the door? The dev team that produced this near-masterpiece... thought it was actually a good idea? Oh god. 3:

I think it actually compares favorably with the jumps of faith and bottomless pits in the Street Alley (Revenge of Shinobi 2-2). Precise placement means the difference between Fake Lee hitting you on the way up or down, getting bounced into a pit, or just doing fine.

I'm no fan of ROS's chronic offscreen enemies, but I don't think there's much comparison. ROS st2.2 lets you choose an upper or lower path with zero crossover, any blind drops entirely up to you, and shuriken burst able to exterminate anything waiting below. For years I didn't even bother with anything below the rooftops, but wanted to get that hidden 50 shuriken for my replay, so I took the lower route and figured out where I could safely drop down from. AFAIK there's nothing else down there but fake Bruce Lees, fake nuns and probably some other annoying stuff (I've never bothered, lmao!), so once I get the shuriken I'm back on the rooftops and headed for the disco to kill juicy fruits man.

This freedom is all totally alien to NS st7.2. It's a rigid test that will instakill you until you've memorised and repeated back a precise path down the rabbit hole. Blatant "fuck you, pay me" stuff. For me NS more or less stops being a game, let alone a great one, during that bit.

[Squire Grooktook]

I once sat down for about 20 minutes in attempt to memorize the ninja pit...and didn't manage half of it.

Not only is the pattern deliberately designed to be difficult to memorize (there's no repeating chunks of pattern, the layout is as intentionally asymmetric and twisting as possible) and extremely long, but what you're not seeing in the videos is the absurd execution barrier. Your falling controls are stiff and inertia laden. Not only do you have to memorize the ninjas themselves, but you also have to memorize the obscure and ruthlessly strict timings to steer your guy from one gap to the other.

Ed, I've played a lot of these games, with the only caveat that I search for quality, and I've never encountered anything as brutally unfair as the ninja pit in a quality game. Its straight up Kusoge material somehow snuck into an otherwise 11/10 title.

[Vludi]

I imagine it being awful back in the days, but nowadays it's nothing that mame+savestates can't solve, remember that using the kusarigama helps a lot too. My route requires minimal movement so if you are interested i can make a video later.

[BIL]

Aye, it's really back in the day context that I look at it through.

And at the same time, even moreso than those driven away by the brutal pit... I really shudder to think of stone-faced arcade samurai standing at cabs circa 1989, inserting credits and shrugging off the brutal memo like a glass of water on a raging grease fire, as buttons clicked and the CRT cast its warmthless glow over unflinching killer's eyes.

"Hard men for a hard time."

Video would be cool, as always!

[electricgrave]

I imagine it being awful back in the days, but nowadays it's nothing that mame+savestates can't solve, remember that using the kusarigama helps a lot too. My route requires minimal movement so if you are interested i can make a video later.

I'd be interested in different routes. The one I take is just like the one gif BIL posted. I got it down and everything is well but I feel dumb doing this way, I'd prefer some weapon tactics. I still manage to loose a life or 2 in there, I'm still struggling with getting it just right from the get go, if I can manage this without dying once I'm confident I can do a no death run.

[Ruldra]

I'm pretty sure someone posted a hand-drawn map of the entire ninja pit before. I searched a bit but couldn't find it, maybe somebody else can. Would be useful for some studying.

[BIL]

That'd be Mr. Mosquito's sterling effort. ^_~

Also wao, this thread goes back some ways now. I might try to cobble together a simple table of contents before it hits its fourth year. Although this'll always be primarily a general discussion thread, we've accumulated a nice bit of commentary, strategy and recommendations material it'd be nice to have indexed for quick reference.

[Vludi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjMdc_MQamY
In the first half i move: left -> right -> left -> right using the chain and bomb icons as measure reference, then stay still on the chain and wait for the second half. The second half is about small taps to dodge the enemies (previously memorized), then go to the right, stay still and you are safe. Enemies are a good measure reference too.

I imagine it being awful back in the days, but nowadays it's nothing that mame+savestates can't solve, remember that using the kusarigama helps a lot too. My route requires minimal movement so if you are interested i can make a video later.

I'd be interested in different routes. The one I take is just like the one gif BIL posted. I got it down and everything is well but I feel dumb doing this way, I'd prefer some weapon tactics. I still manage to loose a life or 2 in there, I'm still struggling with getting it just right from the get go, if I can manage this without dying once I'm confident I can do a no death run.

The PC Engine ninja pit is different so no idea about the routes in that.

[BIL]

^ Excellent work! Quick, too!

The PC Engine ninja pit is different so no idea about the routes in that.

I feel for the PCE port devs. They added a moderately tricky easy solution that's actually kind of fun to pull off, but even that's not very obvious, and the pit is otherwise every bit as dumb if not worse. As much as pseudo "arcade perfect" ports were the late 80s/early 90s zeitgeist, and as much as I still enjoy this and other good ones, going off-script here could've only been an improvement.

I woulda junked it entirely and reinstated 7.1's mad monk midboss, tbh.

[Squire Grooktook]

I imagine it being awful back in the days, but nowadays it's nothing that mame+savestates can't solve

Nah, I disagree. I'm no stranger to save-state practicing difficult sections to invalidate lenghty memo-time sinks. But the pit is probably...3x worse than anything I've ever encountered in that department.

I watched your video, and while thats probably the best route I've seen. The sheer length of it would probably take me 2-3 hours to properly drill into memory (20-30 minutes already wasn't enough to get through a quarter of it). As much as I love the game, I just don't have the time for such drudgery these days.

Good video though. I'll probably use it as a reference one day.

[Obscura]

After watching Vludi's 1CC video, god damn, those later stages look absolutely insane. I've never made it past the marsh, and I didn't think it could get much crazier than that... hahaha, holy crap.

EDIT: I felt inspired to play a few Ninja Spirit credits, since it's been years since I last played it. Good god, what an intense monster of a game. Most arcade games, I could marathon for a long session; Ninja Spirit has me pretty much exhausted after about 20 minutes of play. Nerviest game on Earth. Those monks that jump unpredictably! Those wolves! Those giant samauri! The ninjas that leap after you and throw bombs at you and shoot you while trying to evade the aforementioned obstacles! Fucking hell, even the first two stages make other 2D action games seem like a leisurely stroll. And then you hit level 3, and OMFG...

[Squire Grooktook]

Heheh, I've made it to the final stage, and just wait till you experience the masterful, balls to the walls action that is the penultimate stage. Its a battlefield like no other.

[Obscura]

Quick question about a couple of mechanics -- is the chains "downward" swing altered depending on how high you are, or your air trajectory? Sometimes air chain + down swing gives me a big 360 swing, sometimes it stops after only about 45 degrees... but sometimes, it'll stop on my character on about 45 degrees, but one of my ghosts will get a big swing! Every time this happens, the ghost is higher than I am, so it's obviously related to jump trajectory somehow, but I can't tell if it's height or direction.

Also, is it just me, or does the shuriken do more damage to non-bosses than the bombs? It seems to take down both monks and giant samurai faster.

On a related note, hit stage 4 for the first time, and cleared the first section blind on my first try! The next bit with the bamboo spikes sure snuffed out my flame fast though, holy damn...

[BIL]

Quick question about a couple of mechanics -- is the chains "downward" swing altered depending on how high you are, or your air trajectory?

The former. Basically, the ground will terminate the swing on contact.

Provided you're high enough off the ground (either in the air or on a platform), hitting an adjacent direction while the chain is out will swing it a full 360 degrees around. EG: firing it [left], then holding [up] will get you a clockwise swing from 9 o'clock. Firing [right] then [up] will swing anti-clockwise from 3 o'clock. There's no need for elaborate circular motions, just an initial direction and a followup.

The mechanic is exactly the same if you're near or on the ground; you just won't get the full 360 swing. The technique is still extremely useful, particularly in st3.1's field - you can use a 180 sweep to annihilate enemies and projectiles in front, above and behind you in a seamless arc. Or fire straight [up] then hit either side to bring the chain slamming down on something in front of you.

Note this mechanic only applies to the POWered up chain! The normal chain doesn't swing at all.

Note also that you lose movement control during the swing. There's an obscure but potentially deadly glitch associated with this. It's a little tricky to describe... basically, jumps input while the swing is active will be forced in whatever direction the character ends up facing. Always let the swing terminate and movement controls return, then execute the jump. I seem to pick up input glitches like lint on velcro, haha. This is one of the more minor ones, happily. The chain sweep is a superb counteroffensive mechanic - one of my favourite weapons from any 2D action game. Flashy, finessed and practical. Very ninja. Shredding st3.1's teeming horde and thrashing st5's cliff grenadiers never gets old.

I didn't realise you'd only seen Ninja Spirit's first three stages, I can imagine what a revelation the game must be! 99% of it, anyway.