So the Inbachi replay I saw on the game/console itself wasn't legit after all? TAS?pegboy wrote:Looks like the wiki has been updated and they've finally added DDP SDOJ at the highest rank (50). I'm assuming this is for the Inbachi clear? Has anyone actually beaten Inbachi legit? I've seen a few videos on youtube that supposedly do it but also there is also suspicion of cheating (pause abuse, TAS, etc).
Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
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CStarFlare
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I suspect that's the one he is referring to when he mentioned pause abuse. I don't know if it's confirmed, but that no one has been able to pull it off on the PCB (or even the port, I'm assuming since lionmanggg is the only one people reference) in the years since the video went live is a clue.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
If you can just turbo-pause in that game to simulate slow mo then I'm inclined to believe it's cheated, however I'm not familiar with the game. I'm assuming these xbox "replays" don't show the pauses?
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CStarFlare
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Nope. I'm not sure if the video survives, but there was a user here who posted a Futari God Mode clear that was clearly suspect - I think it was determined that they were pause abusing their way through the game, and that didn't show up in the replay (though the way the game was being played was a huge red flag).
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CloudyMusic
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
It's been preserved. Even just watching up until the stage 1 midboss is enough.CStarFlare wrote:Nope. I'm not sure if the video survives, but there was a user here who posted a Futari God Mode clear that was clearly suspect - I think it was determined that they were pause abusing their way through the game, and that didn't show up in the replay (though the way the game was being played was a huge red flag).
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I wonder how long the run took in real time. Must have been a very long time and would have been horrible every time a restart had to happen due to a death before the TLB.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
LOVE & SNUGGLES ;3Keres wrote:It's been preserved. Even just watching up until the stage 1 midboss is enough.CStarFlare wrote:Nope. I'm not sure if the video survives, but there was a user here who posted a Futari God Mode clear that was clearly suspect - I think it was determined that they were pause abusing their way through the game, and that didn't show up in the replay (though the way the game was being played was a huge red flag).
光あふれる 未来もとめて, whoa~oh ♫
[THE MIRAGE OF MIND] Metal Black ST [THE JUSTICE MASSACRE] Gun.Smoke ST [STAB & STOMP]
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OmegaFlareX
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Wish I could read the commentary on the Nico run linked for it.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5734087
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5734087
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Not surprised by that score ranking.Vludi wrote:Tatsujin Oh was added with a 42.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Thought I might give another quick rundown of games on the list. Same "rules" as last time.
Ranked too high:
Ranked too low:
They also list Galaga '88 as a 15 without specifying the final dimension. I'd argue that 15 only applies for the lowest (2), a clear on dimension 5 is pretty damn tough. But I also horribly suck at fixed shooters.
Bonus: Games/loops I've cleared that are not present on the main list (every game with autofire, of course):
I also feel the need to point out that the first Thunder Dragon is insanely hard. The hitbox is HUGE, bullets are fast, almost impossible to spot at times and the final stage will tear players to pieces, even those that are aware of what is coming up ahead. Recoveries are out of the question in several places, too. I get the impression that even the 31/30 points it got here might be not enough.
Ranked too high:
Spoiler
26: Nostradamus. Not an easy game by any means, dying in a wrong spot can quickly lead to an ugly escalation and thus a terminated credit. It is a very short game, however, which makes practicing it (or spamming runs) very simple. It's not even close to the other games with that ranking - Rezon is also short, but a lot more brutal, for example. 20 points or thereabouts seem adequate.
10: Megablast (with autofire). Outside of the daft final boss there is nothing remotely threatening in the game at all. 3 points at best.
7: Area 88 (with autofire). It's in the lowest section of the list and still too high up. Autofire tears everything to pieces, even Insector X is slightly harder than that. 2 points.
10: Megablast (with autofire). Outside of the daft final boss there is nothing remotely threatening in the game at all. 3 points at best.
7: Area 88 (with autofire). It's in the lowest section of the list and still too high up. Autofire tears everything to pieces, even Insector X is slightly harder than that. 2 points.
Spoiler
24: Viper Phase 1 (New Version, with autofire). Hell no! It's a tad bit easier than Raiden II since you have a fighting chance after a death, but it's still a very challenging game with tons of incredibly fast bullets. Unlike Raiden II you also need to sit in the upper half of the screen all the time to take out threats as soon as possible which is extremely dangerous. I see this around the 30 mark.
10: Phelios (with autofire). They don't specify the difficulty setting in the entry, but since they link to a replay of the hard difficulty on the original page I'm going to assume that this is what they had in mind. Seems a good chunk too low to me, the final boss alone is a major roadblock if you don't know exactly how to proceed, and there are several other tricky sections (the fourth boss and fifth stage in particular). 20 might be a bit too high, 18 seems about right.
8: Twin Hawk (with autofire). This is just completely wrong. Arcade Twin Hawk is considerably harder than arcade Daisenpuu, not the other way around. I always was horrendous at this game no matter what format, but I can guarantee this is factually inaccurate. 20 points for this one.
5: Dragon Breed (1-ALL). Nah. Recovery can be pretty tough and learning to use the golden dragon takes some time getting used to. It is pretty easy by Irem standards, yet not that easy. I'd argue it's harder than the first Gradius, so I'm going to give 11 or 12 points here.
10: Phelios (with autofire). They don't specify the difficulty setting in the entry, but since they link to a replay of the hard difficulty on the original page I'm going to assume that this is what they had in mind. Seems a good chunk too low to me, the final boss alone is a major roadblock if you don't know exactly how to proceed, and there are several other tricky sections (the fourth boss and fifth stage in particular). 20 might be a bit too high, 18 seems about right.
8: Twin Hawk (with autofire). This is just completely wrong. Arcade Twin Hawk is considerably harder than arcade Daisenpuu, not the other way around. I always was horrendous at this game no matter what format, but I can guarantee this is factually inaccurate. 20 points for this one.
5: Dragon Breed (1-ALL). Nah. Recovery can be pretty tough and learning to use the golden dragon takes some time getting used to. It is pretty easy by Irem standards, yet not that easy. I'd argue it's harder than the first Gradius, so I'm going to give 11 or 12 points here.
Bonus: Games/loops I've cleared that are not present on the main list (every game with autofire, of course):
Spoiler
28: Star Force
26: Gun.Smoke
25: Exed Exes
25: Twin Cobra, 2-ALL (forgot this last time)
23: Dragon Breed, 2-ALL
18: Cotton, 2-ALL
15: Rabio Lepus (Normal course)
15: Dangerous Seed (the hardest route, don't know about the others)
14: Fantasy Zone, 2-ALL
7: Cotton, 1-ALL
26: Gun.Smoke
25: Exed Exes
25: Twin Cobra, 2-ALL (forgot this last time)
23: Dragon Breed, 2-ALL
18: Cotton, 2-ALL
15: Rabio Lepus (Normal course)
15: Dangerous Seed (the hardest route, don't know about the others)
14: Fantasy Zone, 2-ALL
7: Cotton, 1-ALL
I also feel the need to point out that the first Thunder Dragon is insanely hard. The hitbox is HUGE, bullets are fast, almost impossible to spot at times and the final stage will tear players to pieces, even those that are aware of what is coming up ahead. Recoveries are out of the question in several places, too. I get the impression that even the 31/30 points it got here might be not enough.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
would you say that a 36 is insanely hard?
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I think you should create a separate thread apart from this one so we can more easily track the changes. I also wonder if some of the ones they have listed really low which you disagree with might have some tricks or something that make them much easier?Perikles wrote:Thought I might give another quick rundown of games on the list. Same "rules" as last time.
Ranked too high:
Ranked too low:Spoiler
26: Nostradamus. Not an easy game by any means, dying in a wrong spot can quickly lead to an ugly escalation and thus a terminated credit. It is a very short game, however, which makes practicing it (or spamming runs) very simple. It's not even close to the other games with that ranking - Rezon is also short, but a lot more brutal, for example. 20 points or thereabouts seem adequate.
10: Megablast (with autofire). Outside of the daft final boss there is nothing remotely threatening in the game at all. 3 points at best.
7: Area 88 (with autofire). It's in the lowest section of the list and still too high up. Autofire tears everything to pieces, even Insector X is slightly harder than that. 2 points.
They also list Galaga '88 as a 15 without specifying the final dimension. I'd argue that 15 only applies for the lowest (2), a clear on dimension 5 is pretty damn tough. But I also horribly suck at fixed shooters.Spoiler
24: Viper Phase 1 (New Version, with autofire). Hell no! It's a tad bit easier than Raiden II since you have a fighting chance after a death, but it's still a very challenging game with tons of incredibly fast bullets. Unlike Raiden II you also need to sit in the upper half of the screen all the time to take out threats as soon as possible which is extremely dangerous. I see this around the 30 mark.
10: Phelios (with autofire). They don't specify the difficulty setting in the entry, but since they link to a replay of the hard difficulty on the original page I'm going to assume that this is what they had in mind. Seems a good chunk too low to me, the final boss alone is a major roadblock if you don't know exactly how to proceed, and there are several other tricky sections (the fourth boss and fifth stage in particular). 20 might be a bit too high, 18 seems about right.
8: Twin Hawk (with autofire). This is just completely wrong. Arcade Twin Hawk is considerably harder than arcade Daisenpuu, not the other way around. I always was horrendous at this game no matter what format, but I can guarantee this is factually inaccurate. 20 points for this one.
5: Dragon Breed (1-ALL). Nah. Recovery can be pretty tough and learning to use the golden dragon takes some time getting used to. It is pretty easy by Irem standards, yet not that easy. I'd argue it's harder than the first Gradius, so I'm going to give 11 or 12 points here.
Bonus: Games/loops I've cleared that are not present on the main list (every game with autofire, of course):
Spoiler
28: Star Force
26: Gun.Smoke
25: Exed Exes
25: Twin Cobra, 2-ALL (forgot this last time)
23: Dragon Breed, 2-ALL
18: Cotton, 2-ALL
15: Rabio Lepus (Normal course)
15: Dangerous Seed (the hardest route, don't know about the others)
14: Fantasy Zone, 2-ALL
7: Cotton, 1-ALL
I also feel the need to point out that the first Thunder Dragon is insanely hard. The hitbox is HUGE, bullets are fast, almost impossible to spot at times and the final stage will tear players to pieces, even those that are aware of what is coming up ahead. Recoveries are out of the question in several places, too. I get the impression that even the 31/30 points it got here might be not enough.
As far as stuff that's overrated, the worst offender seems to be Twin Eagle. I mean is that really harder than a 2-ALL of DoDonPachi and all of the Strikers games?
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
We're obviously talking about approximative values here, especially when modern and classic games are lumped together. As an estimate I'd say everything from 30 onwards is very challenging, meaning that the game in question is probably unforgiving, one tiny mistake after 30+ minutes can and will end an otherwise great run (see Raiden II or Gradius III as perfect examples). 40 and more should be reserved for the toughest achievements in their respective fields (like the Xexex 2-ALL for classic shooters or the Tatsujin Ou 1-ALL), 35/36 would be in-between that, obviously.Bananamatic wrote:would you say that a 36 is insanely hard?
I still have not much of a clue when it comes to modern games, unfortunately, so I don't know how exactly one would rate them. The 36 you brought up includes a Ketsui Omote 2-ALL. I'd imagine that someone who goes after that will also try to chase after a respectable score and does not simply play for survival. Is that accounted for in this list? Would it be easier on survival terms to "just" clear this game instead of both loops of Image Fight which has some nigh-impossible checkpoints in the second loop and no bombs to nullify particularly hard spots? Someone said to me that he found it much easier to clear both loops of Dragon Blaze than to 2-ALL Image Fight (which he didn't manage to do yet), I can't even fathom how that would work out, myself.
I might actually do that one day, probably with the next batch of discoveries.pegboy wrote:I think you should create a separate thread apart from this one so we can more easily track the changes.
My only guess is that someone didn't know about the game going crazy when you use autofire rates that exceed a certain threshold. If that happens the game becomes indeed almost impossible. But if you know about that it should be ranked much lower than these for sure.pegboy wrote:As far as stuff that's overrated, the worst offender seems to be Twin Eagle. I mean is that really harder than a 2-ALL of DoDonPachi and all of the Strikers games?
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
It used to say to the right of Twin Eagle that the rating is if you use high autofire and some other stuff I can't remember. For some reason' it's gone now. Actually a lot of stuff seems to be not there on the wiki.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
you should try futari ultra, doesnt feel like a 44 to me
also the ranking is the bare bones clear with no scoring every time I think?
also the ranking is the bare bones clear with no scoring every time I think?
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
That is correct, scoring is not taken into account, just a basic 1CC. Would you rate Futari Ultra lower, and if so, what value would you assign?Bananamatic wrote:you should try futari ultra, doesnt feel like a 44 to me
also the ranking is the bare bones clear with no scoring every time I think?
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I'm curious how a MMP 1.01 Manpuku 2-ALL would rank in this list, though only DEL has firsthand knowledge of that...
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I haven't cleared Manpuku 1.01, but I think it'd be somewhere around a Psikyo 2-ALL (not as hard as Gunbird 2 or Dragon Blaze, but harder than a Strikers game).
A Manpuku 1.0 2-ALL, on the other hand, I think is probably the hardest STG of all time and may be technically impossible. No one will ever clear it.
A Manpuku 1.0 2-ALL, on the other hand, I think is probably the hardest STG of all time and may be technically impossible. No one will ever clear it.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
That's funny; Strikers 45 is ranked harder than GB2 and DB, and Strikers 45 II as hard as GB2.NTSC-J wrote:I haven't cleared Manpuku 1.01, but I think it'd be somewhere around a Psikyo 2-ALL (not as hard as Gunbird 2 or Dragon Blaze, but harder than a Strikers game).
Also, the list now has an entry for SDOJ with Inbachi (it seems) at difficulty 50.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Garegga Special is kind of the same thing (almost exactly the same thing?), if you're a mere mortal it might be fun to try and 2CC or 3CC that mode.NTSC-J wrote:I haven't cleared Manpuku 1.01, but I think it'd be somewhere around a Psikyo 2-ALL (not as hard as Gunbird 2 or Dragon Blaze, but harder than a Strikers game).
A Manpuku 1.0 2-ALL, on the other hand, I think is probably the hardest STG of all time and may be technically impossible. No one will ever clear it.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Manpuku 1.01 looks like it should be above DOJWL to me, from what I've seen it's extremely long (especially compared to Psikyo stuff that you could clear almost 3 times before you play through Manpuku once) and you can't really shitclear it with low score compared to cave/psikyo 2-alls since you need all the lives you can getNTSC-J wrote:I haven't cleared Manpuku 1.01, but I think it'd be somewhere around a Psikyo 2-ALL (not as hard as Gunbird 2 or Dragon Blaze, but harder than a Strikers game).
A Manpuku 1.0 2-ALL, on the other hand, I think is probably the hardest STG of all time and may be technically impossible. No one will ever clear it.
unless:
1) DEL's routes were really below anything near optimal survival as he's the only one who played it
2) DEL isn't super good at bullet hell and a better player could remove 10 or so deaths, giving you a ton of room for error
Maybe I'm overestimating the game as I've never played it but I think it should be way above DOJBL 2-all and Ketsui omote
Maybe it's one of those meme clears like futari ultra that secretly aren't really any harder than most 2-alls but people think it's the hardest game of all time
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
So where would Pink Sweets 1.00 without the extra lives trick place on this list? Is it actually literally impossible or just really hard?
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
It's very hard, but still doable. There are a couple videos on Nico Nico that demonstrate clears without using the infinite lives glitch, even with Meidi/Midi, the weakest character choice in the game. I mirrored one of them to YouTube here, and put links in the description to the others.
From my very limited experience with the game, I estimate it'd rank around the mid to high 30s. There are plenty of harder games when it comes to dodging (the game's more focused on strategic use of the shield and Rose Cracker), but it is very long and unforgiving.
From my very limited experience with the game, I estimate it'd rank around the mid to high 30s. There are plenty of harder games when it comes to dodging (the game's more focused on strategic use of the shield and Rose Cracker), but it is very long and unforgiving.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I wasn't referring to the order in that list (it's a mess), just my personal opinion. I've made it halfway through the loop in Strikers 45 II and beat GB2, and the latter is much harder. Except for that list, I've never heard anyone claim that both games are the same difficulty.Lyv wrote:That's funny; Strikers 45 is ranked harder than GB2 and DB, and Strikers 45 II as hard as GB2.NTSC-J wrote:I haven't cleared Manpuku 1.01, but I think it'd be somewhere around a Psikyo 2-ALL (not as hard as Gunbird 2 or Dragon Blaze, but harder than a Strikers game).
What are the conditions in Garegga Special? For Manpuku MMP 1.0, you have to no-miss the first loop and get through the second with no extends.ciox wrote:Garegga Special is kind of the same thing (almost exactly the same thing?), if you're a mere mortal it might be fun to try and 2CC or 3CC that mode.
The problem with comparing it to other shitclears like for DOJWL is that a decent survival route is also a decent scoring route. You can drop medals a few times, miss a few big lard scoring points, avoid milking bosses, and still end up with a 300 million score and thus 30 lives. The game is pretty long (an hour), but that doesn't seem like an unusual length to me.Bananamatic wrote:Manpuku 1.01 looks like it should be above DOJWL to me, from what I've seen it's extremely long (especially compared to Psikyo stuff that you could clear almost 3 times before you play through Manpuku once) and you can't really shitclear it with low score compared to cave/psikyo 2-alls since you need all the lives you can get
The key here is in your resources. MMP 1.01 (any mode) gives you tons of lives and bomb fragments, so lots of room for error. Psikyo games are short, but you can only goof up a few times.
His route is good and shows how skilled he is at timing the bomb fragment invincibility. "Removing 10 or so deaths" wouldn't necessarily matter much because you can only hold 5 at one time and dying less would actually lower your score.unless:
1) DEL's routes were really below anything near optimal survival as he's the only one who played it
2) DEL isn't super good at bullet hell and a better player could remove 10 or so deaths, giving you a ton of room for error
I think you may be overestimating it a bit, but I would say it's harder than a DOJBL clear and probably Ketsui Omote, although for me Ketsui is really hard.Maybe I'm overestimating the game as I've never played it but I think it should be way above DOJBL 2-all and Ketsui omote
Maybe it's one of those meme clears like futari ultra that secretly aren't really any harder than most 2-alls but people think it's the hardest game of all time
Ultimately, that's why lists like this can't be taken too seriously. Different players have different styles and certain games will be harder for others. In MMP Manpuku, you want to have a route, but when you're hopping from bomb fragment to bomb fragment for the brief invincibility, you find a rhythm and you can wing it a bit. That play style is quite different from a Psikyo loop where you're following a rigid attack plan (position Marion above the bomb icon; when the boss fires, tap left-right-left while holding charge; when he finishes, unleash the charge attack on the bosses right shoulder, etc.) and any deviation will end your credit very quickly. I zone out a lot while playing, so Psikyo games that require long periods of concentration (despite being 25 minutes in all) are harder for me than a game like MMP where you can get away with thinking about the cosmos from time to time.
By the way, I don't want to take away from DEL's accomplishment. Manpuku 1.01 is a beast and only a skilled player like him could take it down.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Fair enough.NTSC-J wrote:I wasn't referring to the order in that list (it's a mess), just my personal opinion. I've made it halfway through the loop in Strikers 45 II and beat GB2, and the latter is much harder. Except for that list, I've never heard anyone claim that both games are the same difficulty.
Still, I've cleared both games, and they seem equally hard to me (iirc BOS, who also cleared both, thinks the same). Actually, I agree with the respective difficulties of Psikyo games in this list.
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Bananamatic
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I was under the impression that the game has so many near impossible patterns that you pretty much lose all of them even if you play well and that the difficulty is like 1.01 futari ultra clear with all the full pork memesNTSC-J wrote: The key here is in your resources. MMP 1.01 (any mode) gives you tons of lives and bomb fragments, so lots of room for error. Psikyo games are short, but you can only goof up a few times.
I wouldn't call ketsui omote a beast, you can get away with absolutely disgusting play and a half assed 2nd loop route where you die 8 times and still clearNTSC-J wrote: I think you may be overestimating it a bit, but I would say it's harder than a DOJBL clear and probably Ketsui Omote, although for me Ketsui is really hard.
By the way, I don't want to take away from DEL's accomplishment. Manpuku 1.01 is a beast and only a skilled player like him could take it down.
Also don't forget that dojwl for survival is basically a 20 minute game with 20 minutes of waiting for the actual game to begin, I doubt manpuku is not at least near WL in clear difficulty
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I think that Gokujou and Sexy Parodius as a whole are ranked too low. I've been spending time with them and they've been really mean to me
They seem friendly at first, but when you get past the first few stages they start to show their dark side (ridiculous rank) and don't get any better. I guess I need to git gud.
Parodius Da seems like the most accessible and enjoyable of the arcade Parodius titles IMO.
Ketsui is too low and Gunbird 2 seems to be too high.
They seem friendly at first, but when you get past the first few stages they start to show their dark side (ridiculous rank) and don't get any better. I guess I need to git gud.
Parodius Da seems like the most accessible and enjoyable of the arcade Parodius titles IMO.
Ketsui is too low and Gunbird 2 seems to be too high.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
Sexy is the easiest of the three, Da! (arcade) is the hardest.KoopaTGR wrote:I think that Gokujou and Sexy Parodius as a whole are ranked too low. I've been spending time with them and they've been really mean to me
They seem friendly at first, but when you get past the first few stages they start to show their dark side (ridiculous rank) and don't get any better. I guess I need to git gud.
Parodius Da seems like the most accessible and enjoyable of the arcade Parodius titles IMO.
Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki
I found Sexy and Gokujou a really tough after Da! arcade 1cc clear, what I did wrong?Mero wrote:Sexy is the easiest of the three, Da! (arcade) is the hardest.KoopaTGR wrote:I think that Gokujou and Sexy Parodius as a whole are ranked too low. I've been spending time with them and they've been really mean to me
They seem friendly at first, but when you get past the first few stages they start to show their dark side (ridiculous rank) and don't get any better. I guess I need to git gud.
Parodius Da seems like the most accessible and enjoyable of the arcade Parodius titles IMO.