Prelude to the Apocalypse

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Iran War. When.

2021
3
4%
2022-2025
21
30%
2026-2030
9
13%
2031-2040
6
9%
2041-2050
1
1%
Never
29
42%
 
Total votes: 69

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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Well, I'm glad Bitter Almonds and quash agreed to answer my question directly. The issue isn't Hillary's individual judgement, but rather US foreign policy as a whole.

Not sure what you're on about Jon, can we count Putin sending thugs and assassins across the globe - hitting everything from dissidents, servers, countries, and even fucking soccer games - as part of that wave of violence coming from the third world? No doubt any US President needs to try and work with Russia but Trump has been quite wrong to suggest that Putin is especially worthy of praise. Of course, Trump himself tried to double back in his Wednesday news conference, claiming that he didn't have anything to do with Putin. Fuck's sake, this is a grown ass man of retirement age and he can't pick a story and stick to it. It's embarrassing. Worse are his new comments about "the N-word" and then this groveling:
"I think he’s going to respect your president if I’m elected and I hope he likes me.”
Notice me, senpai!

Any claim that Putin's Russia is better off than Obama's USA is also pretty hilarious. Who's got an economic meltdown and just narrowly missed a blanket ban on its athletes for doping, and which country simply hasn't been able to reach the lofty heights of nostalgic dreaming?
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Mischief Maker »

quash wrote:Maybe there is a vast right wing conspiracy; I wouldn't know because I'm not that involved with right wing politics. What I can tell you is that there is a hell of a lot of infighting within the right wing (dating back to at least Bush's second term, which birthed the Tea Party and other movements), and that their influence on the media, while not insignificant, has been mostly segregated to a few choice outlets.

What I'm getting at is that the Republican establishment as we know it is frankly too unorganized and inept to carry out anything on this scale. Unless we've all been played the fool and Sarah Palin is actually an undercover psyop, I seriously doubt they would be able to pull off anything coordinated enough to remotely qualify as a conspiracy.
Really? Who are these pro-hillary teabaggers stubbornly blockading attempts by the old guard GOP to launch 9 probes in a row to investigate Benghazi? I'd love to learn more about them!

Anyway, I was talking about the last quarter century and the GOP of the 90s was MOST DEFINITELY able to stay on message enough to trash Hillary into the stone age. Hell, I had classmates in middle school taking a break from watching Mighty Morphin Power Rangers to talk about how much they hated Hillary Clinton.

I remember watching a documentary about a man who was freed from a wrongful murder conviction by the Innocence Project. In the epilogue, it said he had applied for a janitor position at a local school. The employer turned him down after seeing the murder trial in his criminal record. The freed man explained that those charges had been dropped. The employer said, "yeah, but you must have done something."

I see the same thing with Hillary. She's no worse than any other neoliberal democrat, but people hate her more because these decades of nonstop fishing trip criminal investigations left her tarnished in the public's eye, even though they never stuck.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Jonathan Ingram
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Jonathan Ingram »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Not sure what you're on about Jon, can we count Putin sending thugs and assassins across the globe - hitting everything from dissidents, servers, countries, and even fucking soccer games - as part of that wave of violence coming from the third world? No doubt any US President needs to try and work with Russia but Trump has been quite wrong to suggest that Putin is especially worthy of praise. Of course, Trump himself tried to double back in his Wednesday news conference, claiming that he didn't have anything to do with Putin. Fuck's sake, this is a grown ass man of retirement age and he can't pick a story and stick to it. It's embarrassing.
You're making it sound like I have a stake in any of this. The truth is I couldn't care less. You're not going to see me making excuses for either Clinton, Trump or Putin and playing the 'choose your favorite monster' game while deceptively wearing the mask of a "left-wing progressive" or whatever meaningless terms people have coined over the years to cover up their fundamentally reactionary politics whose only practical outcome is support of the capital. In the words of Mercutio, "A plague on both your houses!". What does rub me the wrong way here is when a proven imperialist and mass-murderer Clinton is somehow being presented as a voice of reason and restraint next to the aspiring imperialist and mass-murderer Trump even when the evidence at hand points to the contrary. They are both a calamity and deserve a quick retirement into a damp pit, together with the class of people whose interests they are appointed to represent.
Any claim that Putin's Russia is better off than Obama's USA is also pretty hilarious. Who's got an economic meltdown and just narrowly missed a blanket ban on its athletes for doping, and which country simply hasn't been able to reach the lofty heights of nostalgic dreaming?
Frankly, I'm at a loss of words here. You aimed this at a person who believes nation-states and the system of coercion that makes their cogs spin should be flushed down the toilet.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

Pretty much what Jonathan said.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Jonathan Ingram wrote:
Any claim that Putin's Russia is better off than Obama's USA is also pretty hilarious. Who's got an economic meltdown and just narrowly missed a blanket ban on its athletes for doping, and which country simply hasn't been able to reach the lofty heights of nostalgic dreaming?
Frankly, I'm at a loss of words here. You aimed this at a person who believes nation-states and the system of coercion that makes their cogs spin should be flushed down the toilet.
You've got to be joking. Trump a force to end coercion in world affairs?

It's a pure delusion to think that a.) any of the candidates in this election give a shit about world orders without force to back them up - including Bernie, and b.) that Trump could 'flush' out the system without being destructive and endangering international peace and order.
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BulletMagnet
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BulletMagnet »

Off to the side, think Junior might be reaching, just a little?
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Snooze. US politics has been going on for 100's of years and the only life changing times were of unseen circumstances. I've never seen any policies enforced in the Western world that actually changed anything in the REAL world.

I think Trump could make a life changing America, but probably not for the good.. But would easily be the most memorable President of the 21st century.

All this bollox talk about whose getting in. Its all about parties.. Even the losers are drinking wine and living it up.. Its really hysterical.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
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ED-057
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by ED-057 »

Come on guys American politics is a joke and this topic should be funnier.
I think it's pretty funny as is.
the entirety of the united states as a hole
Freudian slip???
Still, my challenge to you remains: Would you vote for Obama?
Never did, never will.
The issue isn't Hillary's individual judgement
No, not judgment. Motivation. She is the textbook definition of a self-serving, corrupt politician. Democraps deserve to have Trump as president for being dumb enough to nominate someone like Clinton.
Not sure what you're on about Jon, can we count Putin sending thugs and assassins across the globe - hitting everything from dissidents, servers, countries, and even fucking soccer games - as part of that wave of violence coming from the third world?
Only if we also count US drone strikes, attempted and actual regime changes, acts of sabotage, assassinations, weapons sales, and pollution from burn pits and depleted uranium ammunition.
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ED-057
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by ED-057 »

After Trump becomes president, I wonder if Clinton will run yet again in 2020?
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quash
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by quash »

Ed Oscuro wrote:Well, I'm glad Bitter Almonds and quash agreed to answer my question directly. The issue isn't Hillary's individual judgement, but rather US foreign policy as a whole.
It's both. Obama, for all of his mistakes in foreign policy, has at least opted to take the subversive route in most cases, whereas a Bush or Clinton would have simply invaded Syria, for example.

The judgement of the person in the driver's seat does matter, although it is certainly just one part of the larger picture of US foreign policy.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

shrillary is the type of politician who'd go to notorious war criminal, henry kissinger, for advice on foreign policy. If leon penetta is singing praises to her at her rally, we better be very circumspect about what type of foreign policy she is for. This dumb brute and her minions will double down on military solutions for foreign conflicts.
Last edited by Bitter Almonds on Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Skykid
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Skykid »

ED-057 wrote:
Come on guys American politics is a joke and this topic should be funnier.
I think it's pretty funny as is.
When Donald Trump is your best candidate for the presidency of the United States, you gotta laugh it up. It's farce.

I personally can't wait for him to win for the amusement factor alone.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned - No zuo no die

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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

Attached a poll. No joke responses for heightened truthiness.

To once again reiterate my stance on why Trump is less evil:

The GOP has long ago passed the threshold of regular villainy, into the realm of cartoon super villainy. What they do and who they are is, by this point, non-material. They're the worst people in the world, and nothing more. You shouldn't care about them because they're a de-facto passive threat. They're like the spikes in a Megaman game. Trump could get naked and do jumping jacks, and he would not lose votes.

Elections aren't about republicans or what they believe. They're about the democrat they decide to have run the spike maze.

In this regard, Clinton is so much more dangerous. Trump is just going to delegate his job to some other horrible guy, just like Bush 2 did. But Clinton. A Clinton is what makes it possible for a Trump to even compete. Clinton is what makes it possible for a Trump to win.

And the next Trump will be an even bigger asshole in a top hat. And he'd win, if Clinton somehow pulls off an upset here.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

I cannot tell the difference. It's why I'm either not voting or voting for Gary Johnson.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Mischief Maker »

Well Jesus!

Am I the only person who voted for Bernie because I want to advance his policy goals?

Everyone else just did it to spit in Hillary's face, apparently.
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

I voted for Bernie... and then the neocon wing of the party rigged the election to put their corporate puppet as the nominee.
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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

I voted for him so as to avoid puppet president Trump being installed. Now that Trump's installed, it was a waste of effort.

Also for America to stop being so fucktarded. Despite my effort, America is still really fucktarded. So. I don't care what puppet they fucktardedly decided to install. Not my responsibility.
Do I have confidence that Clinton will stand up for the working people of this country—for children, for the elderly, for the folks who are hurting? No, I do not. But a Clinton victory could give us some time to build a movement, to develop a political infrastructure to protect what needs protecting, and to change the direction of the country.
Yeah.

That sure changed a whole lot, didn't it? 65 billion years, little has changed. The internet and the kids screwed by neoliberalism would still be here today if Bob Dole had won that election. In fact, maybe the Iraq war would have been avoided. Butterfly effect.

Maybe having our enemies win is detrimental to the advancement of our own goals. Running into the spikes over and over again has proven itself to be ineffective. You clear the stage by avoiding them.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Mischief Maker wrote:Am I the only person who voted for Bernie because I want to advance his policy goals?

Everyone else just did it to spit in Hillary's face, apparently.
No shit.

During the PBS coverage they spoke with one of the leaders of the Bernie factions - representing about 2/3 of the Bernie delegates at the convention - and he said that they wanted to keep the pressure on Hillary to follow three points. I forget exactly what the two economic ones were, but he did mention eternal warfare. That was, of course, a point that Bernie continued to make in reaction to Hillary. To be quite honest I don't see how we fight ISIS without, y'know, fighting them, and apparently Russia and Syria (and pretty much everybody else) agree. As former SecState, Clinton does know about options like diplomacy, too. In any case, though, I think the pro-Bernie factions at the convention were pretty aware that Hillary is currently the only realistic chance of keeping any issues alive that didn't get into the compromise Democratic platform.

I didn't listen to all of Hillary's speech but there were quite a few appeals to disgruntled Republicans to join up. This shouldn't just be discounted as political opportunism, but as an opportunity to try and help conservatives peel away from the angry, racist, religiously bigoted membership in that party, and look again towards building a party around some of the values that conservatives say they like - individual and market freedoms being the two causes mentioned by Republicans. Of course it's not clear how you can make a big party based on those simple ideas, but Republicans shouldn't have to throw their lot in with angry racists and religious hypocrites.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

Was one of those economic points the tpp? They'll torpedo that through with shrillary's full support.

"If I could go back, I'd do it differently" is her motto.
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Mischief Maker
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Mischief Maker »

Bernie's an independent again. He isn't angling for a job in Hillary's cabinet. He was under no obligation to endorse Hillary.

He endorsed her because the playing field is more productive for his revolution with the veto stamp in her hand and a Supreme Court filled with moderates than the veto stamp in Pence's hand and a Supreme Court filled with Scalia clones.

I remember seeing a video at the start of the election where Ralph Nader was calling Bernie a sellout for making the politically expedient choice of running as a democrat instead of running as a Green like he tried (and failed). Here we are now and politically expedient Bernie Sanders went from zero name recognition to coming within a hair of defeating political royalty, and even then only with the DNC laundering money and otherwise tilting the scales in her favor. Meanwhile the Green party candidate, pure-as-the-driven-snow Jill Stein, is scrambling to get on the ballot in more than 23 states.

Voting for Hillary doesn't mean you like her any more than running as a democrat meant Bernie liked them. It's a politically expedient tactical move. Bernie's going to return to DC as arguably the most powerful senator today. To me Hillary's a political tool. She's the pinata more likely to drop some candy following a solid beating.

If you think I'm a fucking idiot, then don't listen to me. Listen to him!
Two working class dudes, one black one white, just baked a tray of ten cookies together.

An oligarch walks in and grabs nine cookies for himself.

Then he says to the white dude "Watch out for that black dude, he wants a piece of your cookie!"
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BryanM
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by BryanM »

I am of course super annoyed by people trying to run for president as a third party.

Swallow that pride, let the little Donkey sit next to your name, roll some fuckin' dice. Jill could have gotten a bit more support than Kucinich did.
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

No, I'm not going to follow on Bernie's endorsement. I disapprove of shrillary's political career performance and her support for war, corporatism, destroying the environment, dismantling democracy, nepotism, and taking away rights and liberties of US citizens. I will not vote for trump, either... for pretty much the same reasons. Ergo, I'm either gonna sit at home and play Shoot-'Em-Ups or I'll go hang out at the polling station and vote for a third party candidate.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Bitter Almonds wrote:shrillary's political career performance
You got me there - fighting segregation, getting disabled kids to school, enacting CHIP, fighting the EPA and getting benefits to 9/11 first responders with cancer, and trying to get universal health care 20 years before Obamacare are all terrible things to have done.
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Giest118
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Giest118 »

but there were some e-mails or whatever
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Bitter Almonds
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Bitter Almonds »

So she's not pure, 100% evil hahah.

- against gay marriage... until she had to flip-flop on it
- for the tpp... until she had to flip-flop on it
- for fracking...? She mumbled something when she was questioned about it.
- supported the war and invasion of Iraq.
- supported mass spying on US citizens
- Benghazi
- goldmansacks cheerleader
- coup d'etat in Honduras
- mass incarceration of black people... er, "superpredators."
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FRO
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by FRO »

BryanM wrote:Attached a poll. No joke responses for heightened truthiness.

To once again reiterate my stance on why Trump is less evil:

The GOP has long ago passed the threshold of regular villainy, into the realm of cartoon super villainy. What they do and who they are is, by this point, non-material. They're the worst people in the world, and nothing more. You shouldn't care about them because they're a de-facto passive threat. They're like the spikes in a Megaman game. Trump could get naked and do jumping jacks, and he would not lose votes.

Elections aren't about republicans or what they believe. They're about the democrat they decide to have run the spike maze.

In this regard, Clinton is so much more dangerous. Trump is just going to delegate his job to some other horrible guy, just like Bush 2 did. But Clinton. A Clinton is what makes it possible for a Trump to even compete. Clinton is what makes it possible for a Trump to win.

And the next Trump will be an even bigger asshole in a top hat. And he'd win, if Clinton somehow pulls off an upset here.
A coworker and I were having a discussion on this topic yesterday. The thing about Clinton is, while she's a known pathological liar, the unknown variable with her is whether her rise to power is predicated on a specific agenda, or whether power is the end in itself. Is she the literal Frank Underwood, who only craves power, and wants to hold on to that by any means necessary, OR once she achieves that "ultimate power", does she plan to actually do something with it? If her only goal is power, her presidency, however destructive it would be due to her desire to stay in power, would be less destructive if all she did was "exist" in the White House for 4 (or, God help us, 8) years. On the flipside, if she has a real agenda, and it's as toxic as the rhetoric has been lately, then she stands to do more damage. Her record as a senator, and as the Secretary of State speak for themselves, in that, they say nothing, other than speak to her incompetence. She has accomplished almost nothing noteworthy during her time in either political capacity. So as ineffectual as she has been thus far, it would make sense that her end is power in and of itself, at which point, her presidency would then be potentially less harmful. The caveat to that is, unless she surrounds herself with people that have agendas more dangerous than her own, and they influence her to see to them.

Donald Trump is a buffoon, and the biggest problem with him is, he's not really any of the things he's been saying. He's a TV character, but he's not really a Republican. He's not really even "alt right" like so many of his supporters. His record of lying isn't much better than Clinton's, and frankly, all the unknowns about his foreign policy, his ability to decipher military intel and act upon it as Commander In Chief, and his somewhat hybrid economic platform that isn't totally clear, are just some of the things we would have to worry about. He says he's pro-choice but hates abortion, so he's pandering to both sides, though not very effectively in either direction. He says he's anti-TPP, but what about it is he against, and why? He likes to make statements like "Lying Hillary Clinton" and "He's a nasty guy" about his former fellow GOP candidates, but is he truly backing those statements up with real data? I would say he's been unable to really communicate that stuff. The one thing he's got going for him is he's an outsider from a purely political perspective. He makes bold statements that, while often brash and not PC, at least illustrate that he's not mincing words. But you can't hang a political platform on being absurdly outspoken, almost to the point of being a douche, if not stepping over that line.

I'm a registered Republican, and exist somewhere in the ether between staunch conservatism and libertarianism, politically speaking. I'm fiscally and socially conservative, and I realize there's no great choice for me this time around. I'm considering a vote for Gary Johnson, even though I don't agree with a fair amount of his platform. That said, at least he has executive level experience as a governor, where he got things done, and shares at least some of my viewpoints or "political checkboxes", if you will. Will it be a throwaway vote? Probably. But as much as the Democrats left Reagan, as he said all those years ago, I feel lately like the Republican Party has left me, and it's been nothing but establishment politics the last couple decades. At least Johnson wants to shrink the size and scope of government, according to his platform. I still think Trump will end up winning, because Hillary Clinton is a disaster, and the Bernie Sanders supporters who haven't been drinking the DNC kool-aid are likely to jump ship and vote for either Trump or possibly the Green Party candidate, vote for Johnson out of spite, or abstain altogether.

I'm still proud to be an American, but times like these make it harder for me to proclaim that without being a little embarrassed about it.
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Lyv »

Clearly the guy who claims climate change is a Chinese hoax is the lesser evil in the long term.

I'm not american, so I can only watch the ongoing freak circus and feel kind of sorry for all of you who have to vote in November.
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Xyga
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Xyga »

Trump, because after his reign if things go as we expect you will have a choice for someone better than both him and Clinton. Hopefully.
If it's Clinton though, future candidates to succeed her will probably be either Satan in person and a cyborg-Hitler clone.
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Durandal
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Durandal »

If everyone really thought Trump was such a threat to the already-ripped fabric of US politics, then one of the Republican candidates should have left the race when they had the chance in order to unify more votes against Trump, but nobody wants to be the one to take the bullet in order to fight the greater evil.

If you ask most people about Hillary's policies, people will either refer to her personal qualities, or that she definitely doesn't intend to do what that Trump guy is doing.Yet at the same time, it's because she, Hillary fucking Clinton, is the Democratic nominee that makes people think twice about voting for her and maybe consider Trump instead. A Bernie nomination would have been the most 'sensible choice' and presented the largest chance against countering Trump, but Hillary doesn't know the meaning of personal sacrifice. If she stepped down and instead let Bernie become the Democratic nominee in order to stop Trump, anti-Trump rhetoric would intensify, and maybe she would go down history as the hero who prevented Trump from becoming president, possibly redeeming her tarnished image for future elections.

But she couldn't, she didn't, and now we're paying the price. That goddamn idiot, he will shit fury all over us. We're fucking dead, kiddos.
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Giest118
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Re: Trump: A real American Hero Dude

Post by Giest118 »

Let's see. Do I want things to remain the same, or do I want all of humanity to undergo a complete cessation of existence as it crumbles and burns away in torrential hellfire?

Well, Bernie didn't get the nomination, so obviously let's go with hellfire. There will be future elections, after the total obliteration of civilization.
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