Ketsui is too brutal

[Siren2011]

Ah, snap!

[Cuilan]

And there's no way on earth the structuring of Ketsui, Espgaluda, Dodonpachi or Guwange is as convoluted or unintuitive as it is in Deathsmiles or its sequel. That's just a misunderstanding folks get by not properly learning to play the games.

A game can be easy to learn and still provide a good challenge, and I would argue that it makes the games far more competitive. Besides, the Deathsmiles games have the advantage of offering the player a greater amount of choice with regards to how they approach the games.

Most people seem to prefer these things, if sales numbers are anything to go by.

On a related note, you should be thankful that there are so many that think like I do. Cave's shmup division would have been shut down long ago otherwise!

[ebarrett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-55raz3fI

[NzzpNzzp]

I like more bullets and a steeper difficulty curve that offers a general equilibrium of scoring and progression, rather than making the scoring the primary aspect of challenge.

Not really sure Dodonpachi should be at the top of the list in that case, bro.

[Skykid]

And there's no way on earth the structuring of Ketsui, Espgaluda, Dodonpachi or Guwange is as convoluted or unintuitive as it is in Deathsmiles or its sequel. That's just a misunderstanding folks get by not properly learning to play the games.

A game can be easy to learn and still provide a good challenge, and I would argue that it makes the games far more competitive. Besides, the Deathsmiles games have the advantage of offering the player a greater amount of choice with regards to how they approach the games.

Most people seem to prefer these things, if sales numbers are anything to go by.

On a related note, you should be thankful that there are so many that think like I do. Cave's shmup division would have been shut down long ago otherwise!

Oh I'm not arguing with the numbers, I'm just telling you what I like.

Cave's modern strategy of making something dummy proof in terms of survival but inviting everyone to mine it for score isn't something I find agreeable.

You suggested that the older stuff is convoluted/unintuitive meta-game, but that makes no sense if Deathsmiles is the contrast.

Deathsmiles has three levels of difficulty that are adjustable on each stage, bonus pickups that change depending on the order you play the stages, and then additional stages that are astronomically tough compared to everything else, but can be skipped if you're happy to give up the kind of score potential that will separate the top of the leaderboards.

Couple this with an obtuse scoring system that requires to you kill different enemies with different shot types to release crowns that break into more crowns that you need to leave to turn into skulls before you sweep them up, and a completely lucrative and ultra fiddly recharging method, and the per-run variables are pretty astronomical.

Compare that to Ketsui's five straight stages and basic proximity-for-points scoring. There's no contest in the convoluted and unintuitive stakes.

[Aliquantic]

Compare that to Ketsui's five straight stages and basic proximity-for-points scoring. There's no contest in the convoluted and unintuitive stakes.

That's only scratching the surface for Ketsui though... planning your stage route for multiplier building is far from trivial (you want to stay away from lockshot for whole sections of the stage at times) if you want to get much beyond the 120m mark or so in the first loop, let alone past 200m (WR level runs hit at least 270m).

It involves occasional pointblanking with rapid shot, there's some enemies that take "special" handling like those tanks on stage 5 that give you no points but kill your multiplier if you lockshot them, the infamous empty lockshot technique generalized to popcorn, a serving of boss milking and waiting, and obviously not dying to maximize your end of stage bonuses. Not to mention that the loops completely ditch the 5-cube system completely

Ketsui's system is pretty deep really (if obscure), and I wouldn't call it basic by any stretch of the imagination... and that's a plus in my book (Not many Cave games are genuinely basic, though, outside of things like Mushi Original)

[Erppo]

Compare that to Ketsui's five straight stages and basic proximity-for-points scoring.

Yeah sounds like somebody has absolutely no idea how Ketsui works. As already said, it's really far from basic and proximity does not directly give you points. If you think it's so simple, I suggest you to grab Mame and try to savestate yourself over 200M from the first loop.

E: I would call DDP pretty basic. There's really not much to it beyond never die, never bomb, never break the chain.

[Siren2011]

And that's the problem I have with icycalm's review of the game. As much as I respect him and look up to him, that review strikes me as superficial, at least with regards to how he explains scoring. (He praises the game for the "simplicity" of its scoring system. ) I've been trying to come to grips with the empty shot technique for almost a year now, and I'm just now starting to get it. This isn't even taking into consideration all of what Aliquantic mentioned. It is a nuanced and complicated game, overall. But I totally thought it to be simple at first as well back when I only payed attention to getting the 5 chips and ignored, for example, the always fluctuating multiplier (Which, as it turns out, was the whole fucking point of collecting 5 chips in the first place.).

[Cuilan]

Compare that to Ketsui's five straight stages and basic proximity-for-points scoring. There's no contest in the convoluted and unintuitive stakes.

You need to keep in mind that I'm judging these games as a sum of all modes (among other things) rather than just one mode vs another.

For Deathsmiles 1, it sounds like your issue with the recharge system would be solved by playing MBL, or 1.1, or MBL 1.1 (just like how Ketsui X mode solves most of mine). In Deathsmiles 2 (all modes), the recharging is even less of an issue.

As for killing certain enemies with certain shot types, the reward for doing it "correctly" is not that large in the first game so it can be ignored for the most part, and in the 2nd game it's usually rather obvious where you should use lock-shot. It's actually less obvious in Ketsui when it's possible to destroy chunks of bosses, and from what I've seen, doing that has a larger effect on score.

As for the thing about the bonus pick-ups, I'd say Deathsmiles 1+2 and Ketsui are about even in that regard.

In my eyes, choice does not make a game any more convoluted, certainly not when the effects of your choices are obvious (rank select). Even in the worst-case scenario, it's a bit of a moot point, since people will eventually find the "best" way to play it. The thing is that putting the "best" way to play into practice is relatively less intuitive in Ketsui.

[Skykid]

Compare that to Ketsui's five straight stages and basic proximity-for-points scoring. There's no contest in the convoluted and unintuitive stakes.

You need to keep in mind that I'm judging these games as a sum of all modes (among other things) rather than just one mode vs another.

For Deathsmiles 1, it sounds like your issue with the recharge system would be solved by playing MBL, or 1.1, or MBL 1.1 (just like how Ketsui X mode solves most of mine). In Deathsmiles 2 (all modes), the recharging is even less of an issue.

As for killing certain enemies with certain shot types, the reward for doing it "correctly" is not that large in the first game so it can be ignored for the most part, and in the 2nd game it's usually rather obvious where you should use lock-shot. It's actually less obvious in Ketsui when it's possible to destroy chunks of bosses, and from what I've seen, doing that has a larger effect on score.

As for the thing about the bonus pick-ups, I'd say Deathsmiles 1+2 and Ketsui are about even in that regard.

In my eyes, choice does not make a game any more convoluted, certainly not when the effects of your choices are obvious (rank select). Even in the worst-case scenario, it's a bit of a moot point, since people will eventually find the "best" way to play it. The thing is that putting the "best" way to play into practice is relatively unintuitive in Ketsui.

Well, I don't agree, but we can agree to disagree (and I forgot about the lock-shot! Thanks for reminding me, there's another thing. )

To me, the entire design of Deathsmiles' feels like a company who are great at what they do struggling to implement something new and original into a horizontal format they're not comfortable with. It doesn't feel properly settled. If you're comfortable with it, all power to ya.

Unlike Aliquantic and Erppo - kings (and queens) in the shmupping field - the Ketsui game I've played thus far hasn't stepped into the territory of exploiting milking tricks or deep tactics, just identifying a stage route that leads to a steady stream of X5's.
That's basic entry level scoring, which is what I was making the comparison to Deathsmiles on. Perhaps I should have made that a little more clear, but it always sounds nicer when you end a whole paragraph with a single line contradiction.

Most shmup scoring systems have layers of depth, but that's a different argument altogether.

[Erppo]

Sounds like you're just ignoring half of the system then. Chips are not score in Ketsui, but rather a resource you use for the scoring. First half of the scoring is getting the chips to feed the multiplier and the second half is using that multiplier to get score. Both phases have their own tricks and things you need to consider and it doesn't make it any simpler that you have to do both at the same time (unlike the Futari Maniac system which is a lot like Ketsui but you do the phases separately). I would actually rate Ketsui as one of the most complex Cave games.

First you talk about using the correct shot to maximize item gain and high level recharge tricks in DS and then you suddenly ignore almost everything in Ketsui scoring and say you're only talking of entry level scoring.

[RNGmaster]

And that's the problem I have with icycalm's review of the game.

Ah, you're learning. When someone's dogma contradicts your own experience, you reject that dogma. But there will be other icy-bots in the future.

...there's some enemies that take "special" handling like those tanks on stage 5 that give you no points but kill your multiplier if you lockshot them, the infamous empty lockshot technique generalized to popcorn, a serving of boss milking and waiting, and obviously not dying to maximize your end of stage bonuses. Not to mention that the loops completely ditch the 5-cube system completely...

What the hell, I did not know this.

[Aliquantic]

Unlike Aliquantic and Erppo - kings (and queens) in the shmupping field - the Ketsui game I've played thus far hasn't stepped into the territory of exploiting milking tricks or deep tactics, just identifying a stage route that leads to a steady stream of X5's.

I do feel the "high level" remark is a false distinction to make since the game isn't going to recognize your level and all games will have multiple levels of depth... eventually you'll hit a point where you meet your current goal in a game and will need to step up your own game if you intend to keep playing, and this doesn't take godhood levels

Deathsmiles will encourage you to do so earlier given how trivial a straight 1cc can be, and just like Ketsui, it provides you with the scoring route (which you well know) and the survival path through the Extra stage and higher rank (which is not "astronomically tough", but roughly in the same league as a Ketsui 1cc). This does not require knowing anything about Deathsmiles's system beyond "shooting down stuff and powering up when the counter hits 1000", with roughly similar results to Ketsui, except with a wider scoring differential between players (though nothing like DFK yet!).

And like Culian mentioned, Deathsmiles MBL is a bit more accessible with its streamlined scoring mechanics (though Cave added a couple more layers as well) and an extra difficulty rank/new Extra stage. Again, it won't take much effort to hit a basic score in this game with the most simple mechanic of "get skulls and power up" (and now avoid dying), while still providing you with a fair challenge (or more if you so choose). I wish Deathsmiles 2 had kept on meaningful difficulty though, at least in X-Mode

I think it's safe to say you just plain don't like Deathsmiles and never will, and we can leave it at that

[chempop]

So what you're basically saying is, Galuda 2 trounces all other cave games... I agree!

Skykid, thanks for informing the rest of us on which games we should enjoy, I'm going to have to take notes because Akai Katana happens to be one of my favorite (this is a bad thing I'm guessing?)

On topic: There are at least 3 realms of difficulty

1) Beginner-Intermediate: Survival play - 1CC/1-All
2) Intermediate-Advanced: Score Play
3) Expert: 2-All, World Records, etc

Some titles are going to be the better game depending on which realm you belong in. I think Ketsui is one of the best Cave games because it is fun for beginners and experts alike. That said, I like Deathsmiles more even though I recognize it may not be as good of a game.

[Skykid]

I think it's safe to say you just plain don't like Deathsmiles and never will, and we can leave it at that

Nnngh... possibly.

I recently watched Dan76 give it a good clear in Casino, and all the other guys too since it's been there a while, but I still can't see the attraction.

As for Ketsui, that was my next sit down and clear game for this year. I got to stage 5 a few times, but I never gave it all the attention it deserves (obviously, given my lack of scoring knowledge) but I'd like to.

Skykid, thanks for informing the rest of us on which games we should enjoy, I'm going to have to take notes because Akai Katana happens to be one of my favorite (this is a bad thing I'm guessing?)

I'm not telling you what you should enjoy?
I love Akai Katana, it's awesome - probably Cave's best in years. I prefer Shin on the 360 to Arcade. That's another I was making decent progress with and walked away from :sigh:

[Gus]

More people should give Futari 1.5 Ultra a shot. It's pretty much the ultimate answer to complaints about new Cave games having too easy survival or too hard scoring.

[Aliquantic]

I love Akai Katana, it's awesome - probably Cave's best in years. I prefer Shin on the 360 to Arcade. That's another I was making decent progress with and walked away from :sigh:

Okay you'll have to explain to me how Shin works when I get Akai Katana PAL, because I've played the demo for a fair bit and I simply cannot get anywhere near SIN's results (I get Zetsu/Arcade, but Shin is almost as mysterious as DS2 Arrange for me)

Have you seen Dan try the Casle on Death Mode 3 in DS? I would agree the early stages are pretty dry (DSMBL 999 fixes that though, and that's what I'm currently learning when work isn't calling in), but the Castle with all those suicide bullets is amazing, and the optimal strategy is not to power-up if you're confident you can no-miss

[Skykid]

I love Akai Katana, it's awesome - probably Cave's best in years. I prefer Shin on the 360 to Arcade. That's another I was making decent progress with and walked away from :sigh:

Okay you'll have to explain to me how Shin works when I get Akai Katana PAL, because I've played the demo for a fair bit and I simply cannot get anywhere near SIN's results (I get Zetsu/Arcade, but Shin is almost as mysterious as DS2 Arrange for me)

Have you seen Dan try the Casle on Death Mode 3 in DS? I would agree the early stages are pretty dry (DSMBL 999 fixes that though, and that's what I'm currently learning when work isn't calling in), but the Castle with all those suicide bullets is amazing, and the optimal strategy is not to power-up if you're confident you can no-miss

No, he didn't do it at that level iirc, I'm sure it would be quite a spectacle. And yeah, I agree the early stages are dry - it's probably only because you play them so many times over.
My favourite stage in DS is MBL Ice Palace. I regularly ruminate that if the entire game was like that it would be amazing (although I admit I only ever attempt to play it with Sakura cos of those options. )

I could definitely explain how AKS works, although I'm yet to crack my first billion on it yet (I came close on a recent run when I was demoing for the Casino group last September.) If we're going to talk about convoluted scoring systems, that's the one! Great fun though.

Are you going to be visiting Casino for the Easter meet? Icarus will be at there and he's superb at AKS. Maybe we could do a 360 setup or something (I don't have the PCB unfortunately.)

[finisherr]

I've been having a hard time with STGs lately. Right when I have enough time to practice, my work life takes over = (

However, recently I've been playing Ketsui fairly consistently. There are a couple things I learned about this game over the past few days:

1. The patterns exploit standard means by which you would dodge a pattern. There are a lot of directed shots that spread, in addition to patterns that change in acceleration. You have to know where to be at all times.

2. Each level in the first loop can be totally exploited with practice. Watch some superplays and adapt them into your own. I watched a YouTube replay a few times before practicing stagings 1-3. With some modifications, I'm now able to consistently nail No Miss each level while collecting a great deal of 5 chips.

3. Each boss can be totally exploited. You can manipulate the patterns to stay relatively safe, and still earn 5 chips on the different sections. Knowing how to exploit the boss can turn a hard fight into a relatively trivial endeavor.

4. After practicing different sections, I've noticed a pattern in how I progress. A large chunk consists of general route detection. I'm basically trying to figure out the safest way through a level while still earn a whole lot of 5 chips. This takes time. Once I get a general route, I learn the nuances of the route. The grey areas for optimization become detected from failure, and I can adjust the route so slightly so that I consistently earn 5 chips in each section. Finally, i have to keep playing the level until i can chain all the different sections with a No Miss and score satisfactory to my liking.

5. This game is very, very addictive. I don't even want to play a run if I'm not earning 5 chips the whole way.

6. You need a plan for every single section in the game. There is a good deal of point blanking, so if you don't have a plan, you will definitely get shot in the face when improvising. You can improvise if you get caught off guard, but if you keep playing the game this way, you will definitely get shot in the face. This means you need to practice quite a lot. I believe this is why folks find the game so punishing. You really have to know what you're doing.

7. There should be no doubt that the first loop of this game is more difficult that DOJ. While DOJ can be more dense at times, the patterns are a LOT easier to read. Patterns in this game change in acceleration, causing a warbly, dizzying effect. SDOJs first loop is comparable to the first loop of Ketsui.

8. Everyone should give Ketsui some time. It really is a masterpiece.

[dorelas]

i love shooters with technical and futuristic style. Tiger Heli, Aerfighters 1, Raiden etc.

Thats why Ketsui , along Raiden Fighters Jet are my top tier 2 shmups, and definitely the best of CAVE. Not only setting , but also the gameplay (and music!) sets it apart from anything cave has done. Love it to death!

[Squire Grooktook]

I like fantasy.

In general.

Sci-Fantasy is cool too though.

[rugdoctor]

like the 3rd strike of CAVEs catalogue to me. I play better when playing aggressively. Shoot first, ask questions later for the glory of higher score.

[finisherr]

I can finally no miss no bomb stages 1-4 individually. Haven't tried stringing them together yet. Learning stage 5. Realizing the midboss can be made simpler by hugging left and moving up and down. Simplifies dodging the patterns except the first and last pattern. Last pattern is still dangerous for me. Also, the descent is looking good until that big MF comes down. Not sure how to handle this baddie just yet. The spread, speed and density is just a bit much. I think I have to macro-dodge the center of the attack while micro-dodging the spread on the sides. Tough stuff for sure. Still very dangerous.

My goal is to no miss no bomb stages 1-4 while trying to keep those 5 chips coming in. Not sure about stage 5 though. Will likely have to bomb to get through it. We'll see. Just excited to be playing this game really. Wish I could shmump all day.

[Trevor spencer]

It's an awesome game that's for sure , I really like the fact that your score does'nt get overly punished for losing a life and you just get thrown straight back into the action. . I have a 1cc on my YouTube channel but my game needs work. Would like to get back into it and try for a loop 2 run.

[ZaKa-tokyobassist]

I'm bad at Ketsui. I can only make to the Stage 4 boss before losing lives. Love the game though. One of the best bullet hells.

I can see why people have a hard time with it but it feels more manageable than DDJDOJ. That game will fuck you up.

[Squire Grooktook]

I find DOJ's first loop massively easier for survival than Ketsui's first loop because of the sheer amount of resources it gives you. All you need to do in DOJ is get through the first 4 stages without losing more then 1-3 lives or so, and then you can literally bomb and hyper spam through the final stage without having to dodge or route much at all. Ketsui on the other hand kinda forces you to get decent at some of the patterns even if you only want a simple 1-all.

[Arvandor]

I think I need to stop EXYing DOJ and just try for the clear with good ol' C-Shot or something.

I do like Ketsui a lot, but I do get annoyed with games that require too much memorization and allow for too little improv abilities. Of course, MOST shooters are like this, so it's hard to complain too bitterly on the varying shades of grey =P

[Weak Boson]

EXY was easier for a survival clear for me. On paper having all those extra bombs is great, but, at least for me, most of the time you do not die with 0 bombs in stock. But if you chose the weaker shot or laser then the stages are gonna be a lot harder and you'll find yourself needing to bomb when otherwise you wouldn't. Particularly in stage 5 I think. Playing EXY makes for easier and more consistent execution, so you're less likely to die by accident before using all your bombs so you are actually able to make good use of the ones you have rather than sacrificing strength for bombs which you lose anyway when you get overwhelmed.

Can't play Ketsui for shit tho.

[lmagus]

I play Ketsui aggressively because the game rewards you that way, as in killing big enemies as fast as possible will prevent the screen from getting filled with bullets.

Once you learn a route, you try to do the same every time to avoid being caught by unknown patterns.

I find it very hard to keep this perfection when playing a full run, and die in the most stupid ways even in the first stages, when all I'm doing is following the route I have practiced hundreds of times.

There are no hard spots, it's random bullets, the small difference in timing that will kill me. I can usually bomb whenever I see I'm in trouble.

I've been to the last boss twice in the past 2 weeks and I find that it's such a huge effort to reach the later stages with a decent amount of lives left.

[finisherr]

Played a few rounds to practice the stage 4 boss today. To handle the 4 way shot pattern i look past the screen and use my peripheral vision. This actually allows me to see my clearly in 4 directions. If I focus on the ship or any specific point around it, I always get hit. Attempting to look at the entire screen at once helps! Getting about 7/10 no miss on this boss now. : )