Brexit: Leave wins!

[evil_ash_xero]

Saw the news.

Well, I don't really know what kind of impact this will have, but good luck to all the Brits, on here.

[Ed Oscuro]

Shorter me from earlier: It's already cost me up to $15 (possibly substantially less, but yeah), and neither Europe or the UK were involved with that transaction.

But hey, if this leads to Britain getting a better deal, I'll take it in stride. I'm just worried it doesn't lead to Britain getting a better deal at all, or anybody else for that matter. Well, besides Donald Trump, as I'm sure people will be flocking to that golf course of his. (I know this isn't the Trump thread, but I did find it interesting how the news spun his talk on the matter, which seemed less like crowing about his business savvy than just pointing out some basic macroeconomics, on his part.)

[Bonus!]

Looks like the backpedaling on promises from the pro-exit leaders is already starting.

Farange never made the claim leftist media is attributing to him. It is clear that you have an agenda, but how about not trying to insult our intelligence and instead drop your deliberate deceptions?

[Blinge]

how about not trying to insult our intelligence and instead drop your deliberate deceptions?

Dat irony.

[MintyTheCat]

I shall give a watch.

The issue for me is less 'UK remain/leave' and more about how pissed off people are and how utterly let down people feel. I simply got bored of paying taxes for very little in return - I doubled my salary the moment I left the UK and thankfully salaries are taken more seriously in Germany and we have better employment law that protects the worker. So my thinking is more about how it reflects how fed up people are and how essentially the UK government took the piss for too long.

Either way it does not affect me personally as I left a long time ago, pay no tax to the UK and will not retire in the UK. I barely recognise the UK for how it has turned out. Standards need to improve, people need to have options and things need to become less hard going. If, let us say things had have been rosey then perhaps the EU vote would have gone the other way.

The reality of living in the UK these days is that it is quite expensive but many of the benefits of living in a wealthy country are kind of not realised: e.g. the level of crime is comparably high but we pay fairly high taxes and even fundamentals such as food and rent are quite costly. Something has to give eventually and it did.

EU membership is clearly not the cause of Britain's problems, and leaving it will certainly not fix them.

This is true. Too many people believe that having control is some kind of mechanism to a better future. Thats like saying when my last boss was replaced with my new boss that everything was supposed to have gotten better (as proposed). But the reality is, the changes were hard, people lost their jobs and I'm not sure I want to work there anymore

Yes, I get that, however, what sways the vote is people's perception and this clearly has: issues over immigration, the idea that the UK is throwing money to the EU and is has no choice and things being a 'bit too 'european' for our tastes' - all those factors contributed to many voters thinking that the best course was to leave.

It is not science, it is not mathematics but it has everything to do with rhetoric and how perception is directed and in a way it gave them a voice.

I know very well that the UK government only really has itself to blame and for far too long matters were not addressed. This to my mind has nothing to do with what is the most sensible, long-term, best interest position to take so in short: I agree with you, Immryr.

[MintyTheCat]

The reality is that the Upper Class in the UK have not been challenged for hundreds of years - unlike, Germany, Russia and even France.

I understand the reason for having Russia in that list, but relative to present times it is a largely misguided notion. Over the past 1.5 decades we have witnessed the formation of a new upper class that isn't just unchallenged—it's actually largely unchallengeable due to its corrupt ties with the government that is held together chiefly by avarice and fear. The examples are abound. And yeah—your upper class has nothing on our current upper class.

My comment was more over that in the UK there has not been a significant revolution of the people against the state for hundreds of years. If you look back to Germany and Russia the people have united and affected the government. This has not happened for a few hundreds years in the UK and for a very long time no one has invaded the UK - yes, the UK could have been taken over had WW2 gone the other way but no one landed and took over and the closest we got to it was when the Spanish waited on the waters back in 1588. Since that time very little has nudged the ruling classes and they have continued to sit comfortably. Even the mass riots across the UK back in 2011 and the student protests in 2010 did very little to alter opinion and as such this is part of the problem.

I dare say Putin is very aware of how giving too much power away and control would threaten government - after all he was station in the DDR in the 1980s so would have seen first hand how a country can be altered through the revolution of its people.

[MintyTheCat]

Was very surprised when I saw the result this morning. Not happy about it. I wanted to see those numbers but reversed, staying in with a strong message that things needed to be fixed. Shit happens. There's already a petition for a second referendum and if you were to hold it tomorrow I think the result would be different with more people who couldn't be bothered to vote doing so, and the very obvious large anti-government protest vote being diminished.

Yes, I think you are right here: it is an anti-government policy protest vote: "you didn't fix it for us, we will not support you!" kind of old biddy thing.

Yes, a re-vote would make things less close second time around. I always laughed at UKIP when I was in London last May; they are all for "leave the EU at any cost" and "deport everyone as they are not British" But just ask them what their actual policies for running an actual for real country and they go quiet - it is akin to electing the Gun Club to run the country - sure they can fire a gun, sure they have a subscription to 'Gun & Ammo' but would you want them running your country?

[MintyTheCat]

The issue for me is less 'UK remain/leave' and more about how pissed off people are and how utterly let down people feel. I simply got bored of paying taxes for very little in return - I doubled my salary the moment I left the UK and thankfully salaries are taken more seriously in Germany and we have better employment law that protects the worker. So my thinking is more about how it reflects how fed up people are and how essentially the UK government took the piss for too long.

Either way it does not affect me personally as I left a long time ago, pay no tax to the UK and will not retire in the UK. I barely recognise the UK for how it has turned out. Standards need to improve, people need to have options and things need to become less hard going. If, let us say things had have been rosey then perhaps the EU vote would have gone the other way.

The reality of living in the UK these days is that it is quite expensive but many of the benefits of living in a wealthy country are kind of not realised: e.g. the level of crime is comparably high but we pay fairly high taxes and even fundamentals such as food and rent are quite costly. Something has to give eventually and it did.

Are you a German citizen? If not, are they even going to let you stay?

I am a Brit citizen but I have lived in Germany for a very long time and as such I shall most likely try to get German citizenship which you can get if you are not a criminal, have some useful skill (I'm an engineer), speak some German or have some ties to Germany (Grand Mother's side of the family are German).

You have to have lived within another EU nation for more than five years to get long-term residency and you can apply for citizenship I think after about six years but some people can claim it sooner such as people with useful skills - there is something known as the Blue Card for example that you can get after about 1.5 years I think. You can also knock off a year if you have been on a German "Integration Course" and although it may be "which is the most important mustard?" or "what are these types of sausage" or "tell us about the German system of law" - that sort of thing.

The actual citizenship test takes the form of a written test and then a talk abut a given topic in German such as discussing a story in a Newspaper. I think any one who has a fair understand of German and who has studied German in a class room would be fine with it - the only requirement is that the person is at the level of B1/B2 which would mean that the person has been using German for say between 4 to 12 years as some people are very good at languages.

This is nearly always given to people who have a partner who is a german national or who has children but, well, apart from the cats I have no children

It will take several years to make the changes come into place and by that time I will have worked out what to do. I very, very, very much doubt I will be moving back to England either way

[Immryr]

yep.... this referendum was about idiots like these people, thinking that voting out of the eu is the way to stop muslims immigrating from Africa, Syria, Iraq etc........ it beggars belief, it really does.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/v ... =2&theater

[MintyTheCat]

yep.... this referendum was about idiots like these people, thinking that voting out of the eu is the way to stop muslims immigrating from Africa, Syria, Iraq etc........ it beggars belief, it really does.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/v ... =2&theater

Well, they did take out most of the Mathematics for GCSE school kids and maybe they hit Statistics and Logic very hard

I feel old now.

[Bonus!]

yep.... this referendum was about idiots like these people, thinking that voting out of the eu is the way to stop muslims immigrating from Africa, Syria, Iraq etc........ it beggars belief, it really does.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/v ... =2&theater

It seems you have not been paying attention. Merkel decided to flood Europe with immigrants, ignoring German law. Afterwards, she tried forcing the EU to distribute those people among all EU member states.

[Bonus!]

yep.... this referendum was about idiots like these people, thinking that voting out of the eu is the way to stop muslims immigrating from Africa, Syria, Iraq etc........ it beggars belief, it really does.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/v ... =2&theater

Well, they did take out most of the Mathematics for GCSE school kids and maybe they hit Statistics and Logic very hard

I feel old now.

In your days critical thinking was apparently not part of the curriculum either.

[Immryr]

well one upside of leaving the eu is that the UK is now out of the Dublin agreement so there's no EU country to send legitimate asylum seekers back to, UK has to keep them by UN international law. No more excuses not to face its duty of asylum.

given that France is planning on sending all Calais refugees to England and England can't send them back, that could mean a new start away from the Calais slums for them and a chance to reunite with their families who are already here.

[MintyTheCat]

Certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36626409

[Bonus!]

well one upside of leaving the eu is that the UK is now out of the Dublin agreement so there's no EU country to send legitimate asylum seekers back to, UK has to keep them by UN international law. No more excuses not to face its duty of asylum.

given that France is planning on sending all Calais refugees to England and England can't send them back, that could mean a new start away from the Calais slums for them and a chance to reunite with their families who are already here.

You're cheering for the UK to waste billions on people who are of no benefit to society. Way to go! Your reasoning is flawed, by the way, because there is absolutely no right for illegal immigrants (!) to come to any country of their choosing. Maybe read up how Australia is dealing with that problem.

[Immryr]

Where did I say illegal immigrants? I'm talking about asylum seekers.

Why is somebody of no value to society just because they're fleeing war?

Immigrants also bring a net positive contribution to the UK on the whole. So they're basically subsidising the lazy shits who were born here.

[moozooh]

My comment was more over that in the UK there has not been a significant revolution of the people against the state for hundreds of years.

Yeah, like I said, I understood the reason for including Russia in that list. The underappreciated danger, however, is that upper classes are more volatile than they seem, as I have demonstrated. Demote one, and another, even worse one, may spawn instantly if this isn't done right. My compatriots slaughtered the royal family in 1910s; in 2010s there's a person with more power than the old emperor, with a retinue who holds enough wealth to put the old emperor to shame. And just 1.5 decades ago he cracked down on then-upper class who either had to flee the country or become loyal to him. If the formation of Russian upper classes in XX/XXI centuries teaches us anything it's that it's a dog eat dog system where the strongest will absorb all the power that is their to be taken advantage of. So the only way to avoid it is prevent the ways for unlimited concentration of power at all possible costs.

It seems you have not been paying attention. Merkel decided to flood Europe with immigrants, ignoring German law.

I'm sure that was exactly the intention! Some people want to watch the world burn; likewise, Merkel just wanted to unleash the horde of <strike>orcs</strike> immigrants upon Europe to see everyone suffer. She's a psychopath like that.

Afterwards, she tried forcing the EU to distribute those people among all EU member states.

...Which is the rational and economically sound thing to do! Virtually all of these refugees (and "refugees") are of working age. Immigrants can work and contribute to an economy in exactly the same way a native citizen can—in fact, more so on average, because not every native citizen is of a working age. So why wouldn't you want them to work and contribute? If they could be directed at the states with the weakest own economies first, and not let accumulate in the states with the strongest own economies, you would see an overall boost to GDP within half a decade at most. I mean, if you look at the famous entrepreneurs, many of them are immigrants in the first or second generation. Steve Jobs is half-Syrian. Elon Musk came from South Africa. Sergey Brin fled USSR with his parents as a kid. Need I continue?

Basically, the problem is not in immigrants per se; the problem is successfully integrating those immigrants—but it is really up to a country's government and its own policies to make these people work to survive and prosper the same way they make their native citizens work to survive and prosper. EU doesn't force welfare on refugees. EU doesn't force diddly squat, in fact! They just allow unrestricted movement between the member states. The rest is the states' own fault. Merkel tried to organize this, but her power outside Germany is limited. I would say nobody who has been involved so far has handled the situation well, but the problem is recent enough to be remedied completely if governments approach it with a cool head that is out of their asses.

On a different note, there's an upside to this whole situation. Now that member states of the EU see that leaving it isn't quite clear cut, the UK will serve as a warning and an indicator of whether it is the sensible thing to do. Initially I expected some of the major states to blindly follow the UK, but now I'm positive they will think twice—more than they would have otherwise. Ultimately this changes nothing for the UK, but if it turns out it is a wrong thing to do nobody else will have to learn it the hard way.

[Bonus!]

Where did I say illegal immigrants? I'm talking about asylum seekers.

Why is somebody of no value to society just because they're fleeing war?

Immigrants also bring a net positive contribution to the UK on the whole. So they're basically subsidising the lazy shits who were born here.

You can seek asylum even if you are an illegal immigrant. Then you get told that you don't have any right to asylum and still remain in the country. Germany has hundreds of thousands of such people within country borders. The claim that immigration is a net positive to society would need some sources, more precisely, peer-reviewed studies. There was a recent one done at LSE that concluded that immigration is only a positive if people can contribute to the economy. This is of course just a polite way of saying that mass immigration of unskilled, uneducated immigrants is hugely disadvantageous, which is of course common sense. Maybe say hi to the muslim gang of Rotherham that raped 1.400 girls.

Let me ask you a different question: why would someone be of value to society just because they claim they are fleeing from a war? It's a complete non-sequitur. Besides, the millions of illegals flooding Europe aren't even fleeing a war in many cases.

[Bonus!]

mooz,

the millions coming to Germany are, with very rare exceptions, of absolutely no use for the labor market. Here is an article in German, by arguably the most eminent newspaper, that discusses this issue:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/flue ... 92678.html

It is only a leftist fantasy that those people will benefit society. A large part of those immigrants are illiterate. Their education is at primary school level. Here's another article:
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article14 ... ildet.html

There is virtually no need for unskilled labor in a modern industrialized society. You may not like that, but it's a fact nonetheless.

[Bonus!]

This is a very fitting statement regarding Brexit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XKJ2mcdVmQ

[TechnoFreek]

I'm Irish and live in Ireland. Both nations have close trading relationship.

How knows how that will be impacted.

[MintyTheCat]

My comment was more over that in the UK there has not been a significant revolution of the people against the state for hundreds of years.

Yeah, like I said, I understood the reason for including Russia in that list. The underappreciated danger, however, is that upper classes are more volatile than they seem, as I have demonstrated. Demote one, and another, even worse one, may spawn instantly if this isn't done right. My compatriots slaughtered the royal family in 1910s; in 2010s there's a person with more power than the old emperor, with a retinue who holds enough wealth to put the old emperor to shame. And just 1.5 decades ago he cracked down on then-upper class who either had to flee the country or become loyal to him. If the formation of Russian upper classes in XX/XXI centuries teaches us anything it's that it's a dog eat dog system where the strongest will absorb all the power that is their to be taken advantage of. So the only way to avoid it is prevent the ways for unlimited concentration of power at all possible costs.

This is very true and yes, Putin comes across as being a man of power and I would not want to mess around with him - wasn't he a lawyer who ended up working for the KGB? I know he got posted in the DDR back in the 1980s.

England has not had much along those lines for a long time though, the last attempt at civil war in England was in the 16th century but Russia actually had a civil war and indeed the Upper Classes of that time were in some part displaced. Often turmoil in Europe results in turmoil in Russia I find.

[Cee]

If anything, the referendum has only shown how deeply divided the United Kingdom is. Between those who benefit from the EU, young educated urban professionals (as well as formerly marginalised areas such as Scotland and NI) and those who don't, the old, uneducated suburban underclass, and need scapegoats for their troubles.

This is precisely part of why you lost.. by being a disgusting detached snob who has nothing but contempt for the working class of this country and i'l guarantee you come from a privileged background with little to no adversity in life who was basically raised on a pillow right? Seeing as you think it fine to pigeon hole people and conclude the entirety of their characters on such stereotyping...

This is a very fitting statement regarding Brexit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XKJ2mcdVmQ

Agreed!!

Where did I say illegal immigrants? I'm talking about asylum seekers.

Why is somebody of no value to society just because they're fleeing war?

Immigrants also bring a net positive contribution to the UK on the whole. So they're basically subsidising the lazy shits who were born here.

MUH ECONOMICS!
Every single fucking job done today by migrants was always done long before the gates opened the only difference is the cost and that's exactly where your "net positive contribution" lays as business flourish upon the exploitative opportunity that free movement brings. Good work buying into the "brits are lazy!" meme which derived from propaganda post Blair to validate the disgusting stamping on working classes for their own economic gain that took/takes place. As you brought it up though maybe we can talk about subsidizing seeing as muslim immigrants are a complete fucking failure when it comes to work and make up massive percentages of welfare claimants everywhere they go in europe. Go look up the figures for tower hamlets just for example but hey that doesn't fit your narrative does it? Genuine asylum seekers are one thing but as the entire vetting process has basically crumbled under pressure of numbers it's now impossible to determine value so yes they have no value to our societies and are not worth the gamble of taking in thousands for a "we found a good one" ratio of 10 for every 50K.

Personally i don't know anyone whom thought this leave vote was some end to all immigration, it was always about restoring control to allow this country to choose its immigrants/future more wisely. As for the backlash against Farage where dumb dumbs think he is somehow back peddling on the NHS, may I just point out he isn't in government so of course he has no say in how the money is spent from here on out and that is all he was clarifying.

Dat irony.

Dat non argument.
"HUUR EVRRYBODY IS SO DUMB APART FROM ME"


Basically this is all just a great case of leftards growing up in world where everything has always gone their way as they exist in echo chambers never being challenged and for once it didn't so now we have to endure arrogance, endless crying, calls for democracy to be undermined until it goes there way no matter what happens, making absolutely everything about economics and insisting everyone is totally stupid even if everything turns out great.

Trump will be the next great victory, good times indeed.

The saying "You've made.your bed, now you have to lie in it" has never been so apt.

Right!!! So shut the fuck up then?

[Blinge]

Ah you've found an opening to take another shot eh? Cee is the glorious leader for this country I can get behind.

It wasn't just lefties that opposed brexit. Also if you think lefties have always got their way you must be so far right that everything is left to you.
You got what you wanted mate, time to calm down a bit yeah?

[BulletMagnet]

Farange never made the claim leftist media is attributing to him.

"I never specifically said that particular thing on the record myself, I just allowed my allies to drive a bus around with that exact false figure printed on it in big letters, and said nothing to correct their enormous (but not at all deliberate, not at all!) error until all the votes had been cast and I'd gotten what I wanted out of the people duped by it! Is that so wrong?"

It is clear that you have an agenda, but how about not trying to insult our intelligence and instead drop your deliberate deceptions?

Even if I did have an "agenda" beyond "the stuff these people are saying is largely not backed up by facts", it doesn't much matter, because everything that will go wrong after the exit is formalized will continue to be blamed on anyone but its architects for decades to come, and enough people like yourself will continue to buy it no matter how much contrary evidence exists.

[moozooh]

It is only a leftist fantasy that those people will benefit society. A large part of those immigrants are illiterate. Their education is at primary school level. Here's another article:
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article14 ... ildet.html

There is virtually no need for unskilled labor in a modern industrialized society. You may not like that, but it's a fact nonetheless.

But it's not a fact—it's a "fact". Almost 3/4 of German jobholders have no tertiary education, and half of them have only attained a Hauptschulabschluss which by definition makes them unskilled or at most low-skill at the time of graduation. How do they manage to live with that? Well, I suppose it's because people with degrees are not very willing to flip burgers, wipe floors, deliver goods, work on assembly lines or storage facilities, etc. There are plenty (and I do mean plenty) of jobs that can be mastered in about two weeks, even from ground-up. It is achievable. Besides, technically no-one prevents enacting stricter policies for welfare access for immigrants. I mean here in Russia even a native citizen won't just be fed for free unless they're pensioners. And the pensions are... well... let's say they aren't quite sufficient for anything.

Besides, the education problem is only relevant for people who have immigrated as adults. Their children and all of the subsequent generations won't have it—they enter school as usual and perform on the same average level with other kids. Having been integrated, the children of immigrants typically contribute at least as much as the average native, if not even more. I mean if you look at this forum you might notice the amount of people whose parents or grandparents have immigrated in Europe or USA from Asian countries (and I'm not at all sure all of the first-generation immigrants were high-skill workers), yet they're somehow able to speak good English, make enough money to buy arcade boards, and travel around. But wait, let me blow your mind some more! The USA, world's wealthiest state at the moment, was born and established entirely by immigrants. And Australia was a penal colony! What happened there? Opportunity happened. These countries dealt with it instead of shutting themselves off, and it worked out in their favor.

[Bonus!]

You are missing the point that Germany has a very extensive apprenticeship system that combines practical training and theoretical study. This includes hairdressing, but also fields like computer programming (!). In many countries a lot of those educations would be taught at a college or university. [Yes, there is Computer Science at university, but regular application development is what an apprenticeship as "Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung" prepares for.] To give you another tidbit, in a good German high school you'll learn analysis/calculus, heck, you may even encounter basic differential equations. In many other countries you can leave high school with hardly a grasp of algebra.

Furthermore, there are very few jobs that require no education at all. Finding people willing to flip burgers isn't a problem either. Note that there are a lot of unemployed or underemployed Germans, so it's not as if there is a lack of workers.

Your claim that the children of immigrants perform at the same level as the kids of natives is absolutely ludicrous. Many perform significantly worse. In areas like Berlin-Kreuzberg there are schools where not a single pupil speaks German fluently. In Sweden, the offspring of immigrants are a prime cause for disastrous results in PISA and TIMMS. Once known for the quality of its education, this country now finds itself at the bottom of the OECD.

Lastly, you should entertain the thought that immigration by people of a similar cultural background tends to have favorable outcomes. Germans immigrating to the US tend to do well. Unfortunately, there are many examples of people coming from a much different cultural background that tend to not integrate well, or not at all.

[Skykid]

The saying "You've made.your bed, now you have to lie in it" has never been so apt.

Right!!! So shut the fuck up then?

Relax cockflakes, you seem a bit hot under the collar.

A lot of what you say about Britain, immigration, welfare claimants etc I actually agree with - and I don't consider myself a bleeding heart leftist either. Asylum seeking is fine, but every government needs to control and balance. It's about sustainability, and there's no doubt Britain tipped the scale some time ago.

But leaving the EU isn't necessarily the answer to this. The UK economy was actually in a fairly good state prior to the referendum, and now it's about as useful as a eunuch in a whorehouse.

Exiting the EU has widespread ramifications. It's not like tomorrow everything is going to be shipshape, and there's no evidence that if we remained the country would have been worse off.

[Tarma]

It is only a leftist fantasy that those people will benefit society. A large part of those immigrants are illiterate. Their education is at primary school level. Here's another article:
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article14 ... ildet.html

There is virtually no need for unskilled labor in a modern industrialized society. You may not like that, but it's a fact nonetheless.

But it's not a fact—it's a "fact". Almost 3/4 of German jobholders have no tertiary education, and half of them have only attained a Hauptschulabschluss which by definition makes them unskilled or at most low-skill at the time of graduation. How do they manage to live with that? Well, I suppose it's because people with degrees are not very willing to flip burgers, wipe floors, deliver goods, work on assembly lines or storage facilities, etc. There are plenty (and I do mean plenty) of jobs that can be mastered in about two weeks, even from ground-up. It is achievable. Besides, technically no-one prevents enacting stricter policies for welfare access for immigrants. I mean here in Russia even a native citizen won't just be fed for free unless they're pensioners. And the pensions are... well... let's say they aren't quite sufficient for anything.

Besides, the education problem is only relevant for people who have immigrated as adults. Their children and all of the subsequent generations won't have it—they enter school as usual and perform on the same average level with other kids. Having been integrated, the children of immigrants typically contribute at least as much as the average native, if not even more. I mean if you look at this forum you might notice the amount of people whose parents or grandparents have immigrated in Europe or USA from Asian countries (and I'm not at all sure all of the first-generation immigrants were high-skill workers), yet they're somehow able to speak good English, make enough money to buy arcade boards, and travel around. But wait, let me blow your mind some more! The USA, world's wealthiest state at the moment, was born and established entirely by immigrants. And Australia was a penal colony! What happened there? Opportunity happened. These countries dealt with it instead of shutting themselves off, and it worked out in their favor.

Call me skeptical, but I some how doubt, very much, that Russia has an open door policy to immigrants, and especially not to those who are low skilled or from displaced nations.

The examples you give are from a different period of history, the world was very different back then, heck many members of the EU today were members of the Soviet Union when the it was first formed (as a steel and coal trading bloc), and those founders probably never envisaged what we see today.

The UK is not looking to shut itself off from Europe or the rest of the World. It just does not want to be part of the EU institution - an institution that is greatly in need of reform and is unlikely to take those steps given the people who currently control it. I don't know why people get it into their heads that this is the UK pulling up anchor and floating off into the Atlantic... although that may well be Nigel Farage's idea or some of the other loons within UKIP.

[MintyTheCat]

It is only a leftist fantasy that those people will benefit society. A large part of those immigrants are illiterate. Their education is at primary school level. Here's another article:
http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article14 ... ildet.html

There is virtually no need for unskilled labor in a modern industrialized society. You may not like that, but it's a fact nonetheless.

But it's not a fact—it's a "fact". Almost 3/4 of German jobholders have no tertiary education, and half of them have only attained a Hauptschulabschluss which by definition makes them unskilled or at most low-skill at the time of graduation. How do they manage to live with that? Well, I suppose it's because people with degrees are not very willing to flip burgers, wipe floors, deliver goods, work on assembly lines or storage facilities, etc. There are plenty (and I do mean plenty) of jobs that can be mastered in about two weeks, even from ground-up.

Yes, I live in Germany and have lived in a number of parts of Germany and I find that on the whole very few Germans have tertiary education but, and it has to be said, Germany has a good vocational training system and it is quite an integral part of the system. But just for numbers: out of all the Brits I know nearly all have at lest degrees but out of all the Germans I know I know two who have a degree and even in the work place most Germans whom I have worked with have diplomas instead of actual degrees and all the while it has to be stated that German Universities are 'easier going' than the top Brit Universities - can anyone say Imperial College London for example? That was a mean Univ

The other thing is that Germany has a fairly nice spread of salaries whereas nearly all the Brits whom I know pretty much earn around about the same, and yes, they earn less that we do in Germany. If you have undergone an apprenticeship - be it as a shop assistant, sales person, brick layer you can be assured that the qualification will be recognised across Germany and what's more an Employer has to pay you the going rate - there's none of this "we need some to wash disches and they must had a Phd" malarky

By the same token, Britain actively dismantled its apprenticeship system and where I come from working in Retail is not a 'career' it is merely a job.