Brexit: Leave wins!

[system11]

I'm curious and have no research on this - have other countries in Europe experienced a large increase in population density? I think one thing that makes the vote interesting now is the large number of people who remember a smaller country. See this graph:



I was born after that 60s boost, in the calm period - these were my formative years, I clearly remember a world which wasn't as busy and crowded as it is now. Even the tiny village I grew up in now has sprawling estates which were once fields. Today you could double their size and nobody would really notice, but before - they weren't there at all, and that's quite a striking difference.

[MintyTheCat]

@Minty - I think the issue is more over our ideologies. Germany and France are largely socialist countries and have been for a very long time. There has only been sporadic out breaks of socialism in the UK, and hence why Labour historically fails to maintain long periods of governance. Usually they have been elected on an effective protest vote (see 1997) and everytime they've left office they've left a trail of chaos in their wake (1979/2010).
The UK is traditionally a conservative (small c not big C) country and this is very important in defining why I think, there is the "island mentality".

This is true but I find that the Conservative Party that was in the past hardly matches up to what there is today.
Indeed, Germany uses the Nordic model and I agree the Labour Party in the UK is pretty useful and again, has too many Neo-Liberals. But I disagree with you there, the Island Mentality is more that that and more involved. I find that more people in Germany and say Sweden are closer to being "Middle-Class" but you do not find many mega rich over here but that's fine by me.
To my mind in Germany any one can make it if they take an interest where as in the UK I know people who are highly educated, well experienced who cannot easily make it and often end up moving country. It maddens me that UK Doctors for example who work their collective bottoms off find themselves unemployed in the UK when it was our system that trained and educated them and I think there is a bit of a brain drain in the UK these last years:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... s-pressure

[Xyga]

Without getting into the debate around some of the questionable and provocative terms, I'd just say that it certainly was a fundamental mistake of the EU to put aside the many countries's economic/social/cultural specificities and try to force considerable constraints over some members like a punishment, without realizing that it would generate a lot of anger.

Now IMHO the greatest failure were also that neither the member state governements nor the EU have done anything efficient-enough to prevent the capital and work to flee to Asia, nor to prevent impossibly cheap products to come back crossing the Union's border actually without difficulty.

If you're looking to charge 'people' for fucking up your prosperity, don't look into migrants but rather in that huge fuckup that started somewhere around the end of the 80's and early 90's, when the EU pushed towards more globalized capitalism apparently unaware that countries like China would beat the crap out of us at the competition game.

What's the fucking logic in saying you work to protect the European markets, but let them almost completely wide-open to extremely harsh competition ?
And today, after 2~3 decades of losing at the game, our elites naturally tell it's the poor's fault (unemployed, minorities, etc) that the economy and society are collapsing.

"Hey people we fucked up but the bill is for you, and dont blame us elites, blame the weak because we tell you it's them who suck on you, lololol!!!" is basically what we get - and EU or not I don't see in what way the UK's are any different.
Over here as practically anywhere else in Europe the discontent and disappointment is there, it's understandable, and no surprise the many shades of far-rights are taking advantage of the situation.

Our elites are the culprit, but we get the elites we deserve so we're all to blame. The problem is too many of my fellow Europeans fall under the illusion that beating the crap out of the tan-faced, weak in health, and underachievers will bring back their prosperity.

The funny thing is even if a significant number of countries, or just a few major ones, end up bringing their far-right to power, nothing will change, as those puny loudmouths the first days they are in charge will realize they're too powerless and can't do shit anyways.

So back on topic, the Brexit ?
I'm no Brit so several aspects of this are beyond me, I'd have to live there to know more, but if they leave I don't think the EU, save the globe, will be shaken too much, since the more gigantic and fundamental, structural problems humanity is facing are still there anyway and we don't to shit.

[Bonus!]

Dunno about the higher implications, we're hearing all sorts of tunes, but I can tell at least on the simple practical level that it could turn out very annoying for business.
When I was shipping stuff in and out the UK we didn't have to bother with taxes and all kinds of regulations.
Save for the exchage rate fluctuations and plug adapters, business with the UK was overall smooth and profitable, second in my book after Germany.

But I'm no longer in online retail so whatever, I'm more concerned about tourism, because I have a project in mind that might become a reality in about 2~3 years, and British customers would defintely be missed if vacations to southern France would become less interesting for them on the finances side.

Your post is full of straw men. Everything you mention can be solved easily via bilateral agreements. How do you think Switzerland is handling it?

[Bonus!]

What I find amazing though is that in the UK they do not know how many people live in a given place and where they are from - in Germany this is nearly impossible so when they talk about numbers they are accurate.

Nonsense. Germany saw the immigration of about a million people last year alone. Of those alone, the whereabouts of a few hundred thousand are not known. In addition, there are many cases where people register multiple times, thus getting government handouts multiple times as well.

[Xyga]

Your post is full of straw men. Everything you mention can be solved easily via bilateral agreements

Did I say otherwise ? Of course the UK can manage to sign its own agreements, evey country can and I too think it would be better.
But there'll be shit temporarily, maybe a few years because you just don't settle all that within a week.
EDIT: also you better have confidence you can, when you haven't worked like that in decades.

How do you think Switzerland is handling it?

Tax evasion and money laundering ? Like since forever ? What you thought it was their superior industry, skills and workforce ?

UK is very different but the comparison isn't that far-fetched considering the UK has the most elaborate tax evasion system in all of Europe.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm afraid nobody quite knows approximate current population of a single EU member state. Neither is migration within US monitored thoroughly, is it?

Does EU even fund a TV network like Russia Today (or Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty)? Sometimes I feel it would be taken more seriously if only put more effort in that sort of thing.

[Bonus!]

Tax evasion and money laundering ? Like since forever ? What you thought it was their superior industry, skills and workforce ?

Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

Switzerland has an incredibly strong industry. Of course they have a prominent banking sector as well. You may want to pull your head out of the sand and look up company names such as Glencore, Novartis, Nestle, Roche, or ABB. With the exception of Nestle you probably haven't even heard of any of those.

Furthermore, the Swiss have a highly educated workforce. In terms of patents per head they are among the top in the world. In terms of tertiary education, they have two of the best universities in the world, which, again, is very impressive given the size of the country. Of course the UK has Oxbridge (Oxford is not so much known as an engineering school but instead serves to perpetuate the societal status quo, though), but they also have countless universities that are not worthy of the name.

[Xyga]

You've probably never grabbed the concept of disproportion nor been able to tie it to facts.

You're cute, reminding me of that buddy from Luxemburg who for the life of his never believed one second his country made its prosperity out of tax evasion and laundering.

Of course unlike basic tax havens Switzerland isn't just that, but that 'trade' fucking immensely contributed to its considerable wealth and prosperity.
Not understanding this is incredibly naive.

[soprano1]

You're cute, reminding me of that buddy from Luxemburg who for the life of his never believed one second his country made its prosperity out of tax evasion and laundering.

No way! It's prosperity is due to it's imported cheap workforce from other poor European countries like mine!

[Xyga]

Lol, tru dat, I forgot about the portuguese dispora workers there!

[soprano1]

Lol, tru dat, I forgot about the portuguese dispora workers there!

Sorry, what's dispora?

[Xyga]

*diaspora (sorry typo)

[soprano1]

*diaspora (sorry typo)

Oh, yeah, that's true. Some years ago a client of my dad who's in the construction business said that there were more Portuguese bricklayers and other construction workers in Luxemburg than in Portugal and France combined.
Now most of them are in Angola, waiting to get paid by local business.

[MintyTheCat]

What I find amazing though is that in the UK they do not know how many people live in a given place and where they are from - in Germany this is nearly impossible so when they talk about numbers they are accurate.

Nonsense. Germany saw the immigration of about a million people last year alone. Of those alone, the whereabouts of a few hundred thousand are not known. In addition, there are many cases where people register multiple times, thus getting government handouts multiple times as well.

Er, no, you are required by law to register your residence and failing to do incurs a fine but more importantly you cannot use the medical system, claim any welfare or pretty much everything without being registered:

https://www.ummelden.de/Umzug/einwohner ... ldung.html

Sure, you will find illegals but unlike the UK the people who are legally here are accounted for. I have re-registered each time I have moved house and can attest as a foreigner living in Germany this is how things are done here and we have very serious data-protection laws here too as if you have ever been registered, paid tax, had medical care, etc. you will 100% be on the system and not a lot in between. Have you actually lived in Germany yourself?

[Blinge]

The British media is behaving as abhorrently unfair and biased as the left leaning american media have with trump regardless of your personal views.

This gets funnier every time I see it. This tells me not to waste my time with a fucking cretin like you, but here we go anyways.

Before someone says the same retarded short sighted bullshit about not wanting to give more power to the tories just try to digest that if we leave and power is restored you can vote them out at the next election and know your choice is accountable and capable of actually doing things

It's a very dubious prospect that me, my fellow 'guardian reader' buddies, or anyone will be able to vote out the tories. Especially with people like you and whatever morons are convinced boris johnson would make a good leader voting them back in.
TransatlanticFoe (fuck yeah atdi) has already touched on the problems with 'democracy' in the UK, but i'll continue. We don't have proportional representation, so Conservatives will always have an advantage with their heartland in rural counties.

Or better yet, cheating in general elections, and trying to block a police investigation into it.
https://youtu.be/GZxZ-SxstuI

This country isn't the democracy it purports to be. Most of the issues here are being layed at the feet of the EU or immigrants: that's what I disagree with, and it really is nothing new.
If brexit passes, it will pass on an immigration ticket. I didn't actually mean that the leave campaign are being openly xenophobic, however you'd be pretty naive to deny that nationalist 'good old days' dick waving isn't a major part of its popularity.

Just look at this twat go. https://youtu.be/t8D8AoC-5i8 Great politician, no need to answer questions, who needs evidence?? Just repeat the same empty platitudes over and over.
Rule fucking britannia. Shove tikka massala up your arse and sing the national anthem, Cee, more than just the first verse too.
(pigdick cameron got the same grilling a day before, so don't even start.)

Michael gove is the worst. He already wreaked havoc on our *glorious* education system with his "fact based" history lessons. Because learning a succession of dates and events is far more important than analysing historical sources and thinking critically.
Any historian worth his salt knows that historical 'fact' is never guaranteed.

Most people can't distinguish EU directives from the european convention on human rights, but as others have pointed out in this thread, actually understanding things isn't important!

The EU sure as hell ain't perfect, but I do not want an exit negotiated by the likes of gove, johnson, farage. The leave campaign has failed to convince me that any benefit is worth the unnecessary risk. I suppose that's identity politics right? fuck off.

I don't see how anything can be better leaving the EU, frankly. But the whole thing is being presented revoltingly by both sides.

Pretty much this. It's a race to the bottom and I'm fucking sick of it.
My own family members are posting utter moronic shite in favour of brexit. Urgh.

No offence but i'l wager a bet that you're both estrogen drenched beta leftist cucks "nu males" and unfortunately that brainwashing you received from our glorious education system will have you seeing everything you don't agree with as "xenophobic" regardless of whether it's sensible or otherwise. The fact you are more interested in identity politics and trying to align yourself with politicians you like rather than the message you believe to be right clarifies this. Guardian readers basically.

Actually I believe Foe's point was that both sides aren't behaving well, he had a gripe with one element of the shitshow, and I agreed with him. Any evidence that we're trying to align with politicians we like? You pulled that out of your ass - to make room for the tikka, presumably.
I know a daily mail reader when I see one. Do they still use words or have they finally given up the act and just show pictures now?

It's clear where you stand on the political spectrum eh? Any male that doesn't share your views or behave in the uniform way you want them to is a "cuck."
"Uh, well if you had a wife she would cheat on you!! and you would accept it!
probably with me! because I'm such a big strong man! Honest! Definitely, yep. big strong man, me.
so take that!!!"

It's pathetic dude. To me it screams that you've never seen a vagina.
Oh well carry on trying to affirm your masculinity on the scary old internet, you under-evolved knuckle dragging tosser.

[Bonus!]

Minty,

as a matter of fact, I have lived in Germany. This is entirely irrelevant to the discussion, though.

Let me repeat that there are hundreds of thousands of illegal migrants alone whose whereabouts are unknown. Furthermore, people can simply claim they have lost their passport and therefore get benefits several times. Here are some resources, all in German. Since you are living in Germany, you may have picked up enough of the language to read them. Alternatively, Google Translate is your friend:

1) 1/8 of all "refugees" (the German mainstream press refers to illegal immigrants as refugees, so ignore the wording) have disappeared:
http://www.welt.de/newsticker/dpa_nt/in ... unden.html

2) 1/3 (!) of all illegal immigrants in Hamburg, which is the second-largest German city, disappeared:
http://www.welt.de/regionales/hamburg/a ... nklar.html

3) An article tangentially describing that illegal immigrants register multiple times in order to get handouts multiple times:
http://www.welt.de/regionales/sachsen/a ... e-ein.html

A word of warning, which may serve you well in Germany: don't drink the Kool-Aid. The country is incredibly poorly managed and ruled by a morally and materially corrupt elite. As a Briton, you may think things are fine, considering that you are used to a country with infrastructure at a third world level, and similarly shoddy leadership, so Germany may seem like a step up. Things are pretty bad, though, which becomes quite apparent once you leave your cozy expat bubble. Spend a few hour in Kreuzberg or Neukoelln in order to get back to reality.

[system11]

This gets funnier every time I see it. This tells me not to waste my time with a fucking cretin like you, but here we go anyways.

Oh, another ban.

[Xyga]

That's a Shmupxit.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Edit: actually no I don't want to engage further in this thread

[MintyTheCat]

Minty,
A word of warning, which may serve you well in Germany: don't drink the Kool-Aid. The country is incredibly poorly managed and ruled by a morally and materially corrupt elite. As a Briton, you may think things are fine, considering that you are used to a country with infrastructure at a third world level, and similarly shoddy leadership, so Germany may seem like a step up. Things are pretty bad, though, which becomes quite apparent once you leave your cozy expat bubble. Spend a few hour in Kreuzberg or Neukoelln in order to get back to reality.

We were discussing the level of cohesion and in fact Germany is tight in having the numbers of REGISTERED residents as stated.
Were we not discussing knowing how Germany can tell you how many registered citizens it has? I never mentioned illegals but you did and yes, illegals are an issue in many european nations and I dare say that even Sweden has a few.

We were discussing that:

What I find amazing though is that in the UK they do not know how many people live in a given place and where they are from - in Germany this is nearly impossible so when they talk about numbers they are accurate.

Nonsense. Germany saw the immigration of about a million people last year alone. Of those alone, the whereabouts of a few hundred thousand are not known. In addition, there are many cases where people register multiple times, thus getting government handouts multiple times as well.

I see, so we have a million = 10^6 immigrants of which a few 100K = 10^5 are not accounted for or about one in ten or so and as such the entire German system of cohesion: medical insurance, loss of job insurance, pension, etc. is completely useless? Maybe you just had problems when you lived in Germany because you failed to get yourself registered - I have no idea but, I can tell you that once you are registered here you are on the system and you need to be registered to use pretty much any social system.

I would love to hear why Germany is morally and materially corrupt, yes, I agree it can be incredibly and laughably inefficient and they appear to "give jobs" to office lackies who do very little and bureaucracy is an Industry over here - I will give you that, and no it pisses me off too - I would fire the lot of them, but then, I was not raised in a socialistic country, did not get free education like you Swedes and Germans and I got off my arse and sorted myself out - so yes, some of these "european ideas" fuck me right off - call me British if you will

Last time I checked the UK was not a Third World country but it has been at least a year now this I was over there so things may well have changed, thanks.

I am not living in an ex-pat bubble, nor do I know any non Germans over here and certainly, as stated above I do not know any British or Americans or indeed any Swedes in Germany and I am in Kreuzberg and Neukölln most weeks so let's assume that I have the reality angle covered.

I realise that Sweden is a great place but on the other hand your population would fill a couple of my cities so yes, Sweden has many perks but you have to appreciate that it is a lot easier to make great changes when the population is in the millions instead of the tens of millions:

Swedish population: 9,875,378

Greater London population: 8,538,689

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London

If I could be born again I would be born Swiss as it is awesome to make things happen with small populations but I dare say you have that angle covered better than me as you are a Swede

[D]

The whole euro idea has completely failed.
I was strongly against converting to the euro before 2000. Because never has anyone anywhere been able to provide with a good reason to do so. All of this little possibly gains/improvements are just BS.
Till this day I have not seen one improvement, besides no more swapping currency. Which is actually a pretty cool thing. You go on vacation and you have this other currency to deal with. Cool!
Everything has gone and still is so way more expensive than before.
You're giving money to corrupt countries. Which do even less since the euro. They can just go cry in brussels and out come the billions to get a country up and running again. Yeah right!
And as if every country doesn't already have enough problems to deal with.
Making it more complicated will result in less improvement and even more corruption.

And instead of the euro they could've just frozen the currency rates. and focus more on digital money technology instead of changing to another physical currency.


Ah, who even cares. Whatever. There are a few rich influencial people that make money of this eu euro sham. That's it! That's all.
If you love those dudes, then you must be for the EU

[Bar81]

Food for thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

[MintyTheCat]

The whole euro idea has completely failed.
I was strongly against converting to the euro before 2000. Because never has anyone anywhere been able to provide with a good reason to do so. All of this little possibly gains/improvements are just BS.
Till this day I have not seen one improvement, besides no more swapping currency. Which is actually a pretty cool thing. You go on vacation and you have this other currency to deal with. Cool!
Everything has gone and still is so way more expensive than before.
You're giving money to corrupt countries. Which do even less since the euro. They can just go cry in brussels and out come the billions to get a country up and running again. Yeah right!
And as if every country doesn't already have enough problems to deal with.
Making it more complicated will result in less improvement and even more corruption.

And instead of the euro they could've just frozen the currency rates. and focus more on digital money technology instead of changing to another physical currency.


Ah, who even cares. Whatever. There are a few rich influencial people that make money of this eu euro sham. That's it! That's all.
If you love those dudes, then you must be for the EU

I still regard Euros as 'Monopoly Money' to this day and I tend to spend it as such

Yes, prices went up - any one remember paying a couple of hundred Pesetas in Spain for dinner - not any more.
Yes, indeed, it is bloody corrupt and full of lazy bastards who will sit and pout at you as you ask them where your taxes are being wasted.
Yes, I have no bloody idea - actually, I do, why certain countries were allowed to join.
No, I cannot see it working out long-term but I do think that it will have to end badly - which is cannot do right as it is just 'too big to fail' - before people work it out.

Either way, I doubt it will affect us too much as there are slightly more pressing matters to tend to.

[Bonus!]

Minty,

1) The fact that illegal immigrants can register multiple times obviously implies that the numbers can't be trusted. The same follows from the fact that great numbers of those people just disappeared. The registration numbers are for residents, i.e. people residing within country borders. Citizenship would be a different issue altogether. On a side note, leftist German mainstream media love to pretend that there is no difference between a resident, even an illegal one, and a citizen.

2) I did not say that the German social welfare system was "completely useless". However, you need to take into account that is is highly malfunctioning. You may want to read up on cases like Muslims in Neukoelln having multiple wives and dozens of children, all paid for by the tax payer. Here is a source (in German), in case your knee-jerk response is to cry "racist":
http://www.berliner-kurier.de/berlin/ki ... n-23408026

There is also a clear distinction between German citizens and illegal immigrants. You may want to read up on the ordeal Germans have to go through in order to get support from the government, as opposed to the generous free handouts for illegal immigrants. This has been particularly highlighted by the recent natural disasters in the South of Germany, where the prime minister of the state mocked people who lost all their belongings, saying that he can't walk around with a bag full of money helping out. Meanwhile, there have been billions spent on illegal immigrants who have sometimes had new houses built for them. Links below:
http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/grue ... 90114.html
http://www.antenne.de/nachrichten/bayer ... uechtlinge

3) You really should learn not to attack people personally. I have had no problems with registration in Germany. That does not mean that I didn't realize that a lot of things just don't work very well. On that note, the situation in Sweden is wholly unrelated to this discussion. Of course this does not mean that there are no issues in Sweden. Quite the contrary, there are many.

4) Corrupt German elites: well, giving billions to house and feed millions of unqualified immigrants, and at the same time letting the country fall into disrepair, cutting funding to education and so on would be pretty good indication.

5) UK and Third World: of course this is slightly exaggerated, but look up how much water is lost due to the poor condition of pipes, or read up on housing. Just seeing single-pane windows makes me shudder.

6) Check out the Kottbusser Tor area, where crime is rampant. Neukoelln is similarly a dangerous place, and by far the worst in all of Berlin. If you don't want to acknowledge this, then I wonder what kind of area you used to live in in the UK.
Run the section "Soziale Situation" of the following Wikipedia article through Google Translate:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezirk_Neukölln

[MintyTheCat]

Minty,

1) The fact that illegal immigrants can register multiple times obviously implies that the numbers can't be trusted. The same follows from the fact that great numbers of those people just disappeared. The registration numbers are for residents, i.e. people residing within country borders. Citizenship would be a different issue altogether. On a side note, leftist German mainstream media love to pretend that there is no difference between a resident, even an illegal one, and a citizen.

I haven't managed a mass exodus, a natural disaster or anything that would incur a sudden influx of homeless people (no matter how genuine they are or not, and yes, there is some who have flouted the situation and appears as refugees). Yes, I am aware of what the registration system residents is and I raised that and asked you to acknowledge it which is why the German state knows who is who and where they reside which was my point.

2) I did not say that the German social welfare system was "completely useless". However, you need to take into account that is is highly malfunctioning. You may want to read up on cases like Muslims in Neukoelln having multiple wives and dozens of children, all paid for by the tax payer. Here is a source (in German), in case your knee-jerk response is to cry "racist":
http://www.berliner-kurier.de/berlin/ki ... n-23408026

I think you were stating that the entire german system was useless. You seem to have a thing about Neukölln: for any one who is reading this outside of Berlin let me give you some context: it is a shit hole and is not in any way representative of Berlin in general and no where near so for Germany at large - it is shall we say and ethnic shit hole that looks more like a place that they would film a Mad Max film in and it is full of foreigners hanging around on street corners in groups and that sort of thing that I dare say upsets many middle class Europeans such as Bonus here perhaps.

You will always have people flouting the system and that will happen in the UK, Germany and I dare say Sweden. B/Kurier is a proper upstanding news paper without a hint of an agenda and it perhaps one below that other comic - Die Bild Zeitung.
But would it be at all possible that Germans exploit the welfare system? Other EU nationals? Those outside the EU? Or shall we just focus on Muslims here, Bonus?

There is also a clear distinction between German citizens and illegal immigrants. You may want to read up on the ordeal Germans have to go through in order to get support from the government, as opposed to the generous free handouts for illegal immigrants. This has been particularly highlighted by the recent natural disasters in the South of Germany, where the prime minister of the state mocked people who lost all their belongings, saying that he can't walk around with a bag full of money helping out. Meanwhile, there have been billions spent on illegal immigrants who have sometimes had new houses built for them. Links below:
http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/grue ... 90114.html
http://www.antenne.de/nachrichten/bayer ... uechtlinge

Bollocks: I have never seen a system whereby the locals can more easily tap into the system - there is nearly a rule for everything, and unlike the UK, you simply have to find out what the rules are. You seem to have a tune to sing about Muslims and Immigrants, Bonus but I can tell you now we have quite an impressive caste of scumbags residing in Germany who are ripping the system who are very much so german born - like the stripes on a Zebra's back you will find scumbags all over the place.

3) You really should learn not to attack people personally. I have had no problems with registration in Germany. That does not mean that I didn't realize that a lot of things just don't work very well. On that note, the situation in Sweden is wholly unrelated to this discussion. Of course this does not mean that there are no issues in Sweden. Quite the contrary, there are many.

I was not aware I was "attacking" you but I would regard it as you attacking immigrants and Muslims and by the way, we have one of the largest populations of Muslims in all of Europe here so be careful who you "attack".

4) Corrupt German elites: well, giving billions to house and feed millions of unqualified immigrants, and at the same time letting the country fall into disrepair, cutting funding to education and so on would be pretty good indication.

Again, the Immigrants - they must be a fine caste of heathens because you mention them many times - you are starting to sound like the proverbial stuck record now.

5) UK and Third World: of course this is slightly exaggerated, but look up how much water is lost due to the poor condition of pipes, or read up on housing. Just seeing single-pane windows makes me shudder.

Only slightly you say? I had it on your authority that the UK was a Third World Country.. Oh my God, losing water in pipes and in housing - my God - that is serious and "single-pane windows" - I agree it is just too much to take and they should nuke from orbit ASAP - well done, /irony. You will have to do a LOT better than that to convince us all that the UK is a a Third World Country.

6) Check out the Kottbusser Tor area, where crime is rampant. Neukoelln is similarly a dangerous place, and by far the worst in all of Berlin. If you don't want to acknowledge this, then I wonder what kind of area you used to live in in the UK.
Run the section "Soziale Situation" of the following Wikipedia article through Google Translate:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezirk_Neukölln

Yes, it is an absolute shit hole, in a city that has a fair number of shit holes but you cannot compare Berlin to Germany as there is nothing that even begins to come close to Berlin and you cannot compare Kottbußer Tor to the rest of Berlin and draw your conclusions. I have spent nearly ten years in Berlin and before that I spent a long time in London and before that the South East of England so perhaps my awareness of crime is suitably qualified and I am willing to bet my arse that I can see crime way before you can.

For the record, I do not need to "run it through the translator" as I speak German. How long did you say you lived in Germany for and how much German did you learn? You appear to be a bit green to me an inexperienced.

My advice to you: get out of the house, leave your bedroom and for heaven's sake see something of the world and please, stop bashing the Muslims and the Immigrants.

[Ceph]

Food for thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

Impressive piece of propaganda, incredibly dishonest and filled with lies. Goebbels would be proud.

Some facts to go with the fiction:
http://www.csaba.se/2016/06/06/reflecti ... the-movie/

[Bonus!]

Some facts to go with the fiction:
http://www.csaba.se/2016/06/06/reflecti ... the-movie/

That guy barely knows what he is talking about. Fun fact: high-ranking EU officials do indeed have an entertainment budget. This is something I know of because I just so happen to personally know some people rather high up in the EU hierarchy. When they "entertain" the CEO of some multinational corporation, they certainly don't pay this out of their own pocket.

[Bonus!]

Minty,

your style or argumentation is severely lacking. When presented with facts, it is not wise to personally attack the opponent, attempt to disqualify him (note: my German is at native level, and most definitely better than yours; furthermore, I have travelled rather extensively, and lived abroad, in multiple countries, for close to half my life), trivializing the matter, or distract from the discussion otherwise.

1) You seem to lack reading comprehension. If someone throws away his passport, claims to be Syrian, and registers multiple times, then the public register is falsified. Likewise, when someone not registers and simply disappears, but still resides within country borders, his or her whereabouts are not known either. This follows from the definition of the word "to disappear".

2) The problem of Neukoelln is not that there are "foreigners hanging around on street corners", but that there are Arab clans of several thousands people who live in their own parallel society and who are heavily involved in all kinds of crime:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/ ... Clans.html

Also note that Muslims are indeed overrepresented among welfare recipient and crime rates. (To spell it out for you: "overrepresented" means that, relative to their numbers in society, there are more Muslims than Germans living off welfare etc.) The article in Berliner Zeitung pointed out a fact, providing sources. You will find this written up in other sources, like Die Welt:
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/ ... chaft.html
You dismissing facts I presented based on the source I supply just does not make you look very good, now you look even worse because I just provided a link to an article in an allegedly more reputable newspaper.

3) Pointing out facts is does not constitute an "attack", even though leftists and feminists view this differently. Pointing out that Muslims don't contribute much to society as a whole in Germany is about as unwelcome a message as pointing out the problems due to illegal immigrants from Mexico in the US. It is still a fact, though.

4) Poor housing is indeed why I would not call the UK a First World country. Furthermore, you really need to think a bit before responding. The UK is losing several billions of liters of water every day (!), amounting to about 1/5 of the entire water supply (!!) due to poor pipes:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 34999.html
Sure, laugh this off. The loss of taxpayers' money does not seem to be much of a concern for you.

[tomwhite2004]

Most of the major areas in the UK (up to 70%) are privatised so very little of the tax payers money goes any where near maintenance, selling it off in the first place was the issue.

As for the housing stock, not sure where you travelled but on the whole its of a very high standard. Don't like those single panes of glass? Well, most are kept as its fitting with the older Victorian housing stock, most choose keep them original despite the many subsidies they could receive to replace them with double glazing.

I have worked for loads of companies where they have an entertainment budget, got to spend money to make or maintain the existing relationships. You would have to be a pretty shitty employer to expect your staff to pay for this on an individual basis.

BTW I'm voting to stay in the EU, it doesn't help that the Brexit campaign is fronted by a who's who of the most odorous figures in UK politics. Better the devil you know........