benq motion blur reduction

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akumajo
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benq motion blur reduction

Post by akumajo »

Hello

anyone had a chance to test this feature with a 60Hz source (console)?

BenQ Blur Reduction is also a strobing technique, like ULMB and Lighboost.
It can be enabled from 50Hz to 144Hz. You can use it with any GPU, and even with consoles.


i'm curious :).

Thanks.
gray117
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by gray117 »

It's just 'overdrive' isn't it ? ... Many screens have this; BenQ just trying to market it.

It makes a small difference but ... meh ... Pretty small unless there's some energy saving setting that makes the situation otherwise worse than normal - afaik the process increases voltage to pixels slightly...

Google is better than me :P
http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-overdrive-artifacts/

Edit:
What do I know... same website... turns out I'm wrong, something like this:
http://www.blurbusters.com/benq/strobe-utility/
Exidna
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Exidna »

I believe there's only one model where strobing works correctly with consoles at 60Hz (XL2720Z?) but it is supposed to work very well.
So long as you're playing 60 FPS games, it should greatly reduce motion blur, similar to playing on a CRT.
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Fudoh
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Fudoh »

I believe there's only one model where strobing works correctly with consoles at 60Hz (XL2720Z?) but it is supposed to work very well.
I don't see how this would any different to the strobing mode the Sony TVs offer in game mode since 2013. And I guess most people would consider this pretty much unusable due to the low flicker frequency and and loss in light output.
Exidna
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Exidna »

Fudoh wrote:
I believe there's only one model where strobing works correctly with consoles at 60Hz (XL2720Z?) but it is supposed to work very well.
I don't see how this would any different to the strobing mode the Sony TVs offer in game mode since 2013. And I guess most people would consider this pretty much unusable due to the low flicker frequency and and loss in light output.
It's not really any different, except that the monitor supports more than 60Hz inputs.
Flicker and reduced light output is inherent to impulse-type driving methods.
When your source operates at a fixed framerate, you don't have any other options to reduce motion blur. If it's a 60 FPS game, you must strobe at 60Hz.
If you were to strobe at a higher rate to minimize flicker, such as 120Hz or 180Hz, you would have double-images or triple-images when anything moves.
Lots of people are still happy to use CRTs that flicker at 50/60Hz. I find flicker less objectionable than motion blur.
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Fudoh
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Fudoh »

I still would like to see monitor manufacturers implement strobing in the way Sony does it for movie material on the higher end sets. They combine BFI with backlight strobing, achieve 1080 lines of motion resolution and a subjectively flicker free image. While motionflow relies on a 24/25/30 material and puts some motion interpolation ahead of BFI and strobing, I don't see why steps 2+3 couldn't be applied directly to 60Hz/fps material.
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akumajo
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by akumajo »

ok, so you "fix" blur but you have to deal with flicker on the other way, no thanks

lets start an all in one kickstarter scaler guys... OSSC as a base ;)
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Xyga
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Xyga »

Yah.

Someone; we need the full panel controller board/IO/scaler, dedicated to our gaming needs including blur reduction. :p

Make it the most universal possible so it can drive whatever naked/boardless panel available.

A kickstarter of a million or two should do. :P
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atheistgod1999
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by atheistgod1999 »

I'm using a BenQ (RL2455HM) at this very moment with overdrive (AKA motion blur reduction) actually turned off because it overshoots at even the lowest setting. Still a great monitor; first LCD I can't notice input lag on.

Stuff about my experience with input lag, if anyone cares:
Spoiler
I actually noticed input lag when I first played my 360 (I later sold it for a PS3) on an LCD TV through 1080p HDMI. I also noticed the motion blur and everything, but was so excited to have an HDTV that I ignored it (something I'd NEVER do today). Later on, I forgot that there was no lag back when my family had a CRT and naively thought that it was the delay from the controller to the console processing it. I could always notice input lag even when playing in native resolution over HDMI (and in game mode).
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Xyga
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Xyga »

Don't mistake pixel overdrive for backlight strobing, they're attending different kinds of blur problems.
Practically any LCD monitor today has overdrive (RTC) settings. Badly implemented ones indeed create annoying overshoots.
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Exidna
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Exidna »

Fudoh wrote:I still would like to see monitor manufacturers implement strobing in the way Sony does it for movie material on the higher end sets. They combine BFI with backlight strobing, achieve 1080 lines of motion resolution and a subjectively flicker free image. While motionflow relies on a 24/25/30 material and puts some motion interpolation ahead of BFI and strobing, I don't see why steps 2+3 couldn't be applied directly to 60Hz/fps material.
Sony combine interpolation with backlight strobing, not black frame insertion, and then run at 120/240Hz.
Interpolation adds far too much latency for gaming and introduces motion artifacts.
Black frame insertion is the same thing as backlight strobing - it's just a less effective method of it since it relies on the LCD response time (slow) instead of LED switching times. (instant)
And when you set their TVs to reduce flicker with backlight strobing, they simply run at 120Hz instead of 60Hz - which results in double-images.

There is nothing that you can do which will reduce flicker without also reducing motion quality - either by adding motion blur, interpolation errors (and latency), or double-images. You must run 60 FPS sources at 60Hz.
Flicker is the reason that 60 FPS motion on a CRT looks so good.
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akumajo
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by akumajo »

only valid options are OLED monitors/tv or LASER projectors
pico laser projector are cheap, small and quiet, let see... :)
Exidna
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Exidna »

akumajo wrote:only valid options are OLED monitors/tv or LASER projectors
pico laser projector are cheap, small and quiet, let see... :)
All of LG's OLED televisions are sample and hold displays. (flicker-free)
Response time is fast but persistence is high so they have nearly as much motion blur as LCD displays.

Again: the only way to eliminate motion blur is to have the display flicker.
Anything that you do to reduce flicker also reduces motion quality.
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Xyga
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Xyga »

'Nearly', again you're exaggerating.
Yes only 60Hz sample and hold, but the quasi-total absence of pixel blur makes significant difference, you'd have to be blind not to see it.

And you should drop the persistence argument anyway, because TVs are a different segment and won't fundamentally change any time soon, not even in a decade or two, so it's a non-argument, like saying "dogs dont fly so they're inferior to eagles" or something, this argument often parroted in discussions around displays forums is misleading misinformed people into thinking OLED is flawed as a panel technology period, because they don't know it's coming from idealists who expect perfection and will destroy any technology advances that don't meet their extreme expectations.

People never judged LCD technology itself by clashing points typical to monitor vs. TVs, because they know it's one same thing but that it's from monitors they can expect special performance-oriented parts and features in favor to gaming.
Actually even on gaming forums people who opt for TVs don't even raise that kind of argument because they know what they're buying and that it would be asurd to say things like "LCDs are flawed because they don't have 144Hz, ULMB, G-Sync etc".

The real problem of OLED today is not the technology, it's that there aren't any intermediary sizes and therefore no monitors nor smaller more affordable TVs, therefore no production, no economies of scale, no democratization, and certainly not gaming-oriented features and techniques.
While in the meantime criticism and disappointment are piling-up internet-syle.
It's resembling the scenario that killed plasma a lot, stuck in the high-end segment, along with bad communication over burn-in issues.

PS: also you're still misusing the terms 'flicker-free'.
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Exidna
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Exidna »

Xyga wrote:'Nearly', again you're exaggerating.
Yes only 60Hz sample and hold, but the quasi-total absence of pixel blur makes significant difference, you'd have to be blind not to see it.
Response time does very little for motion blur unless you're looking at an old display with very slow response times. (>16ms at 60Hz)
Lowering response time only reduces motion smearing, not motion blur.

Once you reduce the motion blur, the slow response times of the X850C's LCD panel start to be revealed, but until you do that, there's very little difference between it and the OLED with this image.

If the OLED had a black frame insertion option you would see the motion blur disappear without that smearing being revealed, because its response times are so much faster.
Xyga wrote:And you should drop the persistence argument anyway, because TVs are a different segment and won't fundamentally change any time soon, not even in a decade or two, so it's a non-argument, like saying "dogs dont fly so they're inferior to eagles" or something, this argument often parroted in discussions around displays forums is misleading misinformed people into thinking OLED is flawed as a panel technology period, because they don't know it's coming from idealists who expect perfection and will destroy any technology advances that don't meet their extreme expectations.
What are you talking about?
There are a large number of televisions from various manufacturers that incorporate backlight scanning/strobing in their LCDs to reduce motion blur.
It's just that Sony are the only ones that had the option to refresh at 60Hz without any type of interpolation or other processing, making it suitable for gaming.
Plasmas were low-persistence displays, and so were CRTs.
Samsung's OLED TV had a black frame insertion option.
Sony's OLED monitors scan the picture by default and have an option to enable a flicker-free mode in the menus.
Xyga wrote:People never judged LCD technology itself by clashing points typical to monitor vs. TVs, because they know it's one same thing but that it's from monitors they can expect special performance-oriented parts and features in favor to gaming.
Actually even on gaming forums people who opt for TVs don't even raise that kind of argument because they know what they're buying and that it would be asurd to say things like "LCDs are flawed because they don't have 144Hz, ULMB, G-Sync etc".
I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but ever since LCDs were introduced people have been saying that V-Sync should have disappeared and the panels should only refresh once there's a new frame. It just took us 15 years to get to that point with G-Sync.
Now that G-Sync and Adaptive-Sync exist, there's no good reason for any flicker-free display technology to not support it.
Xyga wrote:PS: also you're still misusing the terms 'flicker-free'.
No, you're assuming that PWM-free = Flicker-Free.
All flicker-free displays are PWM-free.
Not all PWM-free displays are flicker-free. (e.g. CRT)

It is the fact that they don't flicker which is important. That makes them a sample-and-hold (full-persistence) display, which means that they will have 16.67ms of motion blur at 60 FPS - even if their response time is only 0.1ms.
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akumajo
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by akumajo »

video from Benq if anyone is interested to see how it is supposed to works :

https://youtu.be/iimNOlhGFSQ?t=17

set the player speed at 0.25
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Xyga
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Xyga »

Ok Exidna my mistake, I should have remembered it's pointless to discuss displays with you, or anything for that matter. :lol:
Over and out.
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by BONKERS »

Xyga wrote:Ok Exidna my mistake, I should have remembered it's pointless to discuss displays with you, or anything for that matter. :lol:
Over and out.
What you don't like being proven wrong with facts and evidence.?

OLED won't do jack squat to improve motion quality significantly for games compared to an LCD with very good pixel response times.
Due to the inherent nature of the way the display works;S&H;, keeping it's instant response times from really working the way you'd like..
http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/
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Xyga
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Xyga »

No you don't get it either, every time he's twisting the points I make with things I don't since we're not talking about the same things and the same level of technical issues, but he keeps doing it every time this comes on the table anyway.

- absence (or quasi-total) of pixel smearing/blur: it IS fucking effective, better clarity period, much less so than what he expects and that's achievebale through other methods but it is anyway, I'm not talking about anything esle so why does he keep bothering me ? I know he's more demanding, I actually am too, but that doesn't make my point wrong at all ffs.
- TVs with backlight scanning/strobing: I'm talking about gaming-useable of course I know TVs have blur reduction techniques but they're not fit. And those fit for gaming arent a thing of the TV market yet, never were, unlikely they'll be anytime soon because of product segmentation logic, it's fucking true so why does he try to make look like I'm the one not on-topic FFS again ?
- I'm talking about the TV market here, and he doesn't seem to have a realistic view on things, it's him who doesn't realize he's lost.
- flicker-free: ok lol nobody gives a fuck how he translates this himself, it's only his opinion or how only people aware of what they're talking about would within dedicated threads at specialized communities, every manufacturer still refers to flicker-free to designate LED PWM-free backlighting whatever he says, if one keeps refering to flicker-free the way he does that's completely misleading conversations for a fucking massive majority of users and customers.
- I don't like people twisting what i say period so yes he's fucking annoying me.

And people stop taking fucking everything written on Blurbusters for science that applies to every case in reality, they're spot on right of course, but fucking OFF in regards to reality and the market.
Losts of the points they make are still only wishing stuff would happen, and in the meantime they create absolute adepts that come poison every damn displays converation with that.
Well I, am fucking talking about reality, available products and technology you actually can buy and use, and if there are advances, even just small steps in the good direction, I won't dismiss them because annoying adpts of super displays science have read about better technology.
There's always better ffs, sorry fo not having a Delorean so I could check on displays 50 years in the future, and come back to tell you all you suck and say BS about displays.

This has pissed me off now, I know he'll come back to piss me off even more, so I will just skip this thread entirely now.
Goddam fucking hell.
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Exidna
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Re: benq motion blur reduction

Post by Exidna »

Xyga wrote:- absence (or quasi-total) of pixel smearing/blur: it IS fucking effective, better clarity period, much less so than what he expects and that's achievebale through other methods but it is anyway, I'm not talking about anything esle so why does he keep bothering me ? I know he's more demanding, I actually am too, but that doesn't make my point wrong at all ffs.
No-one is denying that OLEDs have faster response times and that it can reduce image smearing.
However the reduction in image smearing from faster response times pales in comparison to even a modest reduction in persistence-based motion blur, which is an option on many LCDs now.

Did you not look at the images I posted that showed the amount of motion blur present on two LG OLEDs compared against a Sony LCD? The difference that their response time makes is miniscule.
Yes, the OLED is better when the displays are operating as sample-and-hold, but once you activate the low-persistence mode, the LCD has considerably less motion blur.

It is misleading to say that low response times = low motion blur.
People have wrongly been attributing that to the cause of motion blur on LCDs for years instead of their high persistence, which is the actual cause of most of their motion blur.
Philips first introduced televisions with a scanning backlight in 2006 to address this problem - it's nothing new.

Persistence = motion blur
Response times = motion smearing/trailing

Motion blur is how "in focus" an object is while it's moving. Motion smearing/trailing is whether that object also leaves a trail behind it as it moves.
Xyga wrote:- TVs with backlight scanning/strobing: I'm talking about gaming-useable of course I know TVs have blur reduction techniques but they're not fit. And those fit for gaming arent a thing of the TV market yet, never were, unlikely they'll be anytime soon because of product segmentation logic, it's fucking true so why does he try to make look like I'm the one not on-topic FFS again ?
Well this topic was about BenQ's Blur Reduction (backlight scanning) and Sony TVs have had the option for "Impulse" driving (now the "Clearness" setting) for about five years now.
Xyga wrote:- flicker-free: ok lol nobody gives a fuck how he translates this himself, it's only his opinion or how only people aware of what they're talking about would within dedicated threads at specialized communities, every manufacturer still refers to flicker-free to designate LED PWM-free backlighting whatever he says, if one keeps refering to flicker-free the way he does that's completely misleading conversations for a fucking massive majority of users and customers.
I really don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this.
It is the fact that the display is not flickering which is relevant to motion blur.
If your display doesn't flicker - whether that's PWM-flicker or some other type - that means it is a sample-and-hold display.
With a sample-and-hold display, motion blur is directly linked to the framerate, plus your response time on top of that.
Most people understand what you're talking about when you say that a display is "flicker-free" rather than "sample and hold" or "full persistence".
Xyga wrote:And people stop taking fucking everything written on Blurbusters for science that applies to every case in reality, they're spot on right of course, but fucking OFF in regards to reality and the market.
It seems that you're not aware of the fact that there are many displays available which offer low-persistence modes suitable for gaming - though your selection is more limited if you're wanting to play console games.
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