Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[Gered]

And one more: while I was navigating the service menu to adjust the geometry something strange happened a few minutes in. The OSD menu won't show with the screen in normal scan mode. It shows in underscan and overscan just fine, but as soon as those are disabled the OSD disappears. Admittedly it makes adjustments easier as it's not showing, but it's missing at all times making it slightly more of a hassle to switch between COMP and RGB settings. Is this a bug or did I accidentally toggle something?

From what I've heard (when I asked about it here a while back) this is normal for the L2's (at least the medical ones anyway, not sure about the others). My 20L2MD does the same thing. If I turn it on after it's been off for a long time (e.g. the first time I turn it on in the day), the OSD will display properly without underscan/overscan mode enabled. However, after a somewhat short period of time of being on it will start doing exactly what you described.

In practice this has not been a problem for me as I don't need to do anything in any of the menus anymore. And I have a BKM-129X, so have all my RGB consoles hooked up to one of the RGB inputs, and my Component consoles hooked up to the other (with the proper settings enabled for each of those inputs).

[Guspaz]

There is always the same distance between the center of scanlines given the same resolution input: 240p in the common case here. The scanlines aren't going to be any more tightly packed together on a BVM versus a low-end consumer TV, because you've got the same number of scanlines in the same amount of space.

If you've got a display with a tighter focus (which as you point out tends to follow from higher TVL, since you need tighter focus to achieve higher TVL), then those lines will be sharper and narrower. As a result: less black space between scanlines.

Take it to the extreme and look at a really cheap consumer set, and you can't even distinguish between scanlines, because they're so soft that they fully blend into each other.

[Einzelherz]

Many thanks, Gered. It seemed like a "component got too hot" kind of issue since it flickered back on a couple of times.

And that's correct, Guspaz, but I didn't ask about scanlines.

[Gered]

Many thanks, Gered. It seemed like a "component got too hot" kind of issue since it flickered back on a couple of times.

Yeah, I get the same thing where it begins flickering a bit just before it disappears. It is at least reassuring to know that it's not just you at any rate (since I also had mine shipped to me, I was worried about damage or something).

Figured I'd also mention to that on mine, if I keep the H POSITION geometry setting below about 93-94 (I normally have it at 100), the OSD will show back up again with underscan/overscan mode disabled. The word "DEFLECTION" at the top-left of the screen will be warped a bit though. If I keep lowering H POSITION, the warping mostly goes away. Of course by that point the screen is quite off-center so it's not worth doing anyway.

[zenjirou]

Hi Everyone, new guy here. Hope this is the best place to ask this question. Currently owning the PVM20M2, BVM 20F1U, and BVM 20E1U.
I work close to many broadcasters so was able to pick some of these up over the last year.
The BVMs and PVMs I have are all 480i...but I got an opportunity to grab a BVM F24U.

Now, I know the popular ones for the 24 inch are the BVM D24F1U and BVM A24F1U. This "F24U" seems like a different thing all together, being marketed a little differently by Sony's catalog.

Any idea on how the "F24U" compares to the others. I hope it doesn't have input lag ...being closer to an HDCRT or digital/High Definition editing monitor. It's compatable resolutions seem to show wide varieties of 720p and 1080p with different refresh rates, but no info on 240p/480i/480p.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on this model. Will post pics if I can grab it.

[jujukun]

I have a video issue with one of my arcade boards, Denjin Makai II, on my BVM 20F1UE. Maybe you guys can help me?
Here is a description of the issue: the colors "bleed" on the characters and the fonts of the text (see screen captures below). I don't have this issue when I played this board on my Astro City cabinet or my LED TV set via XRGB Mini. So I think it comes from my BVM setup? Of course, I don't have such problem with any others arcade boards or consoles. It's just this arcade board, which is weird.

My cable setup:
Supergun > RGB scart > Shinybow scart switch 6:2 > Male > Female Scart cable extension > Male RGB Euro Scart to 4 BNC cable > BVM monitor

Male RGB Euro Scart to 4 BNC cable used:
http://www.ebay.fr/sch/i.html?_from=R40 ... c&_sacat=0

and I also tried with this one as well (INPUT version):
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/son ... rter-cable




Thanks in advance for your help.

[Einzelherz]

Hi Everyone, new guy here. Hope this is the best place to ask this question. Currently owning the PVM20M2, BVM 20F1U, and BVM 20E1U.
I work close to many broadcasters so was able to pick some of these up over the last year.
The BVMs and PVMs I have are all 480i...but I got an opportunity to grab a BVM F24U.

Now, I know the popular ones for the 24 inch are the BVM D24F1U and BVM A24F1U. This "F24U" seems like a different thing all together, being marketed a little differently by Sony's catalog.

Any idea on how the "F24U" compares to the others. I hope it doesn't have input lag ...being closer to an HDCRT or digital/High Definition editing monitor. It's compatable resolutions seem to show wide varieties of 720p and 1080p with different refresh rates, but no info on 240p/480i/480p.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on this model. Will post pics if I can grab it.

Looks like it's HD only, but if you can feed it proper signals, I'd wager it looks fantastic. It appears to care mostly about film type signals, but I want to assume that means you can still give it normal 720p, 1080i, and 1080p.


And a question to add: I'm trying to do the auto chroma/phase on my 20L2 but it gives me an error after going through the cycle about half way. My 14L5 doesn't have this problem being fed with the same signal. I've tried 240p and 480i modes on the test suite with the same error resulting.

Is it possible that because it's second in line in the chain? My Wii is connected to the 14L5 then chained to the 20L2 and then chained out to my TV.

[Mantrox]

Got myself a new lens some weeks ago and tried it out by then, but it wasn't until now that I had a look at some of the CRT pictures I shot. This one turned out pretty cool. It's actually an RGB modded PC-Engine.

This photo looks great.
I can see the metadata on it, but can you tell me how far where you from the screen?

[AndehX]

So my previous PVM is the 14L5 on top in that photo above. It's 800TVL. This new one is 600 TVL. All I *know* that that means is that there is more space between each colored vertical line. Does it necessarily mean that the pixels would be less sharp, as well? They're softer and more rounded looking than my 14L5's, but I want to know if this is normal.

The other issue I've got is the top right corner has some color separation. This picture shows the red bleed coming out on the right, but it has blue bleed on the left as well.



Is this one of those problems that can only be fixes via surgery?

Ok so you can clearly see the thick horizontal black scanlines. Those are unaffected by the TVL count, except that with a higher TVL, they just look thicker because each individual pixel is sharper and bleeds less.

Looking more closely, you can see a smaller black space between each individual pixel. With a higher TVL count, that black space between each pixel becomes less visable because the pixels are more tightly crammed together, and thus appear sharper (which as a result, gives you the thicker horizontal scanlines.)

As for your convergence issue. With that particular PVM model, you will most likely not find the settings for convergence in the menu. My similar 500 TVL PVM doesn't have it in the menu either.
The only way to fix that is, as you put it, via surgery. Magnets/neck ring adjustment.
I gave up trying to fix the convergence on my PVM as adjusting the rings on the CRT neck rings didn't seem to help, and I don't have the knowledge to start playing around with magnets etc. I would love to give it a try one day because I love the monitor, but until someone writes a comprehensive guide to adjusting convergence on a PVM, it probably won't get fixed.

[MKL]

I gave up trying to fix the convergence on my PVM as adjusting the rings on the CRT neck rings didn't seem to help

That's not surprising at all. The rings only affect the beams that hit the center of the screen, i.e. the beams that are not deflected by the yoke. That's why it's called static convergence. You just don't adjust corners with the rings. Try with ferrite/permalloy strips (note that these aren't magnets despite what most people think).

[AndehX]

I gave up trying to fix the convergence on my PVM as adjusting the rings on the CRT neck rings didn't seem to help

That's not surprising at all. The rings only affect the beams that hit the center of the screen, i.e. the beams that are not deflected by the yoke. That's why it's called static convergence. You just don't adjust corners with the rings. Try with ferrite/permalloy strips (note that these aren't magnets despite what most people think).

You know, I just realised that earlier when I started thinking about it. So I cracked it open again, and took a closer look inside. I discovered that it already had 2 convergence strips in the top left corner. No idea how I didn't spot them the last time I had the monitor opened.... Probably because I wasn't actively looking for them.

Anyway, I removed one of the strips and to my suprise, it actually fixed the convergence issue in that corner of the screen. So now I had a free convergence strip to use on the other side of the screen. Played around for about half an hour and got the top right corner pretty much spot on.
Blue in the bottom center of the screen still looks off, and the convergence strip only seems to move it horizontally and not vertically, so I can't fix that. It's only minor though and pretty much unnoticable during gameplay.

Overall though, I'm glad I had another bash at it as it looks alot better now. I won't be using it myself, but its nice to know its in good working order.

[amaradona]

I own a multi sync BVM D24 and i am looking for a way to deinterlace ps2 titles so I can get rid of the flicker.

I have a few spare scalers lying around such as a xrgb mini and an optoma hd3000 that are supposively good for deinterlacing but they output only hdmi...so I am not sure how to plug them into the bvm.

Dont really mind the lag by the way...

[Fudoh]

Either by using a HDMI to HD-SDI converter or a HDMI to converter converter - depending on which boards you have on your BVM.

[Guspaz]

Monoprice has cheap HDMI to HD-SDI converters (like $70 IIRC?) and you can find cheaper noname ones on amazon for $40.

[amaradona]

Thank you Guys, I have ordered one and will report back.

[mvsfan]

some monoprice stuff doesnt work. I wasnt impressed at all with their IR remote repeater. IT didnt work with anything i own. Not the Dvd player, not the surround sound it just didnt work.

I also bought some of their middle grade component cables. the connectors are junk. the ground shells on them are not one piece and because of the flex in the connectors, the cables dont stay on.

their High grade RCA cables all have a death grip on them. the connectors are way too tight and every one needs at least 1 side bent out before you use them.

now with that said, some of their stuff is really good, and their prices cant be beat.

their sheilded CAT 6a cables are great.

[Guspaz]

I've not used their HDMI to HD-SDI converters, but I have used their HD-SDI to HDMI converters, and those work fine.

Their RCA cables, well, they're super overkill and do have that death grip, but then, they kind of need the death grip to get over the fact that they're all like RG-59 coax, where the weight and stiffness of the cable could otherwise pull the thing off the RCA jack. What I'd really like for them to do is reasonable thickness RCA cables: instead of 22AWG RG-59, use something thinner and more flexible (stranded copper?) that's still reasonably well shielded...

[mvsfan]

Steren brand component cables are nice and usually cheap on ebay. ive never had a problem with them.

[Einzelherz]

I may have found a difference between MD and regular PVMs. I can't seem to find any Blue Only Mode on my 20L2MD.

edit: I also can't seem to find the 16:9 mode which is in the Sony advertisements, not that I'd really use it.

[Guspaz]

The L2MD seems to be missing both buttons entirely.

The bottom row of buttons on the L2 is DEGAUSS, RESET/BLUE ONLY, UNDER SCAN, 16:9, and EXT SYNC.

The bottom row of buttons on the L2MD is DEGAUSS, RESET, UNDER SCAN, and OVER SCAN.

So one button has an extra feature on the L2 (RESET and BLUE ONLY), and it has 16:9 and EXT SYNC buttons that the L2MD is missing, but it does add an OVER SCAN button that the L2 is missing. Overall, there is one physical button less on the L2MD.

[Einzelherz]

The external sync is in the menu. I wonder if it was a decision like "more button holes = more pathways for bodily fluid. Ain't no one gonna blue mode calibrate or watch widescreen surgery on this."

[Guspaz]

Maybe, but I don't have any overscan option in the menu, so it doesn't seem like a 1:1 match with just stuff moved between buttons/menus. Besides, the underscan (and I assume overscan) modes are really just calibration presets: I've actually got my underscan button doing overscan, which I use for Game Boy games. I've set it to zoom in as much as the service menu will let me.

One thing you can check is the remote config? In my (regular) menu, the fifth submenu is "REMOTE", which lets me configure what each of the 8 pins on the remote control dsub port on the back controls, and my choices for each pin are:

--
DEGAUSS
BLUE ONLY
EXT SYNC
16:9
UNDERSCAN
TALLY
OPTION B
OPTION A
RGB/COMP
LINE B
LINE A

All of those are physical buttons on the front, except for "--" (do nothing?) and "TALLY", which controls the monitor's red tally lamp. Why a medical monitor has a tally lamp is beyond me, but both the L2 and L2MD have it.

Anyhow, check to see if you can pick the missing options in the REMOTE section, because if you can, you may be able to access those features via the dsub port on the back.

[Einzelherz]

It's just all of the buttons on the front.

--
underscan
overscan
tally
option 1
option 2
line a
line b
rgb/comp
degauss

I'll probably setup overscan for the gameboy player as well later today.

Edit: I tried to get the overscan all the way to the sides of the screen but at a certain point (about 1cm on each side) it became increasingly distorted. A sharp pincushion protrusion formed and got larger each increment about 2/3 down on each side. No geometry adjustment would clear it, so I assume that I'm just asking the guns to deflect too much.

[atheistgod1999]

My dad emailed me this link, saying that CRTs are still being manufactured:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 0.0.HVBkqz

I read in the specs that it supports NTSC despite being made in China, as well as (at least) Composite, S-Video, and YUV. Skykid, is it true that CRTs are still getting sold in China? If so, are they good? My dad's actually going to China for a work conference in a few weeks, and he said he could pick up some CRTs and bring them back to the USA as long as they don't contain anything that's illegal here (border customs would take them).

[Xyga]

Good luck then since those things were bottom-end quality, originally aimed at third-world markets, and although still listed most probably no longer actually manufactured except maybe for large special orders only shipping to the said markets.

You'd be better off spending money on importing some of the models still sold by Wei-Ya.

[bobrocks95]

A lot of alibaba listings are nowhere near up to date either. I remember the MX chips in the GameCube component cable being on there and trying to buy them, only to hear back around 4 weeks later that instead of having 10,000 they had 0.

[xga]

I purchased a brand new replacement 21" CRT (tube only) for an arcade machine early last year and the manufacturing date on the sticker was October 2014. I can't remember the brand (some Chinese company that I had never heard of), but the seller that was importing them did say they are still making them.

[DrKingSchultz]

£130 or make an offer..

SONY PVM-20M4E, Does anyone know if these are any good?
What's it worth?

[FinalBaton]

If it's the same as a 20M4U (wich I suspect that it is; E=Europe version and U=US. but double check on that to be sure. just go compare the specs of the 20M4U and 20M4E), then it's a very good PVM model.

800 TVL (wich is a great number for that size) and awesome color accuracy and contrast. It's excellent bang for your buck and it's actually the model I'll go after if I ever need a 20 incher.

I don't know how rare PVMs are in Europe, so I can't help you much here

On Ebay US they generally sell for $350-$400 and if you're patient you can snag one at $250
But it seems like prices on PVM go up by the day

130 pounds ($190 US)seems like a nice price. But what about the condition of the monitor?

This is very important to check, it will alter the value greatly.

[AndehX]

If you're in the UK, I'd say yes, go for it. 800TVL PVM is very good. I paid £150 for a BVM-20G1E which is also 800TVL, and that was a good deal imo, considering the unrealistic £500-£800 asking prices that you find on ebay.

Remember though. It is very important to know the condition of the screen and how good the convergence is. Try and find out the operating time if possible too.