GamerGate - and it's continuing aftermath.

[evil_ash_xero]

More censorship, from Nintendo.

http://techraptor.net/content/tokyo-mir ... ip-roundup

What an odd company. They release stuff, like Bayonetta 2 and Devil's Third, but do all these stupid changes for their "T" rated games.

I guess this is their norm. Just like the old days.

[Skykid]

I guess this is their norm. Just like the old days.

Nah, it's definitely GG related.

[Squire Grooktook]

I know this isn't a solace to people who take this as indicative of medium trends as a whole, but it honestly couldn't have happened to a shittier, more disappointing game.

You said there would be a smt x fe atlus/nintendo/whoever

where's my post-apoctalyptic medeival demon summoning srpg you motherfuckers

instead we got a generic fucking dungeon crawl themed around jpop idols, with a horrendously bad jpop rendition of the (normally) operatic fire emblem main theme

die one thousand deaths, tokyo mirage session

[BulletMagnet]

Nah, it's definitely GG related.

I dunno, I find it somewhat difficult to fathom how whatever praise/sales they get from doing stuff like this (..heck, is there any to speak of?) could outweigh the increasing backlash and "I won't buy until you stop" pledges that seem to pop up everywhere each time it comes to light, especially since, unlike other publishers who censor certain elements, they refuse to publicly discuss any of it in advance...just a guess on my part, but this strikes me as more of an internal problem than an external one (unless the ESRB has somehow gotten pickier).

[Blinge]

where's my post-apoctalyptic medeival demon summoning srpg you motherfuckers

instead we got a generic fucking dungeon crawl themed around jpop idols, with a horrendously bad jpop rendition of the (normally) operatic fire emblem main theme

This.

Oh and I didn't wanna bump this horrendous thread but now we're here I actually think this was good:
https://youtu.be/SwYd5cRlROE

[mamboFoxtrot]

Yanno, I actually do like the full outfit for the character better than the bikini. That black smoke is some straight-up 80s/90s sprite-hack-style censorship, though.
Most of the other changes are so minor they don't even seem worth it.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

I dunno, I find it somewhat difficult to fathom how whatever praise/sales they get from doing stuff like this (..heck, is there any to speak of?) could outweigh the increasing backlash and "I won't buy until you stop" pledges that seem to pop up everywhere each time it comes to light, especially since, unlike other publishers who censor certain elements, they refuse to publicly discuss any of it in advance...just a guess on my part, but this strikes me as more of an internal problem than an external one (unless the ESRB has somehow gotten pickier).

Whether it was an internal decision or one made due to external influence doesn't matter. This was still a choice made due to regressive politics.

I wonder how much money they're spending making these changes - wouldn't that money be better spent by getting the people who get triggered by "vagina bones" the psychiatric help they need?

https://youtu.be/SwYd5cRlROE

Haha. Didn't this also get a fake DMCA?

[BulletMagnet]

This was still a choice made due to regressive politics.

True, but its origin (whatever it is, we'll almost certainly never know for sure) would either strengthen or weaken the standpoint of "coddled college students have suddenly taken over the world" versus "overly-protective business decisions continue to happen, but are easier to track and push back against nowadays".

[Skykid]

Nah, it's definitely GG related.

I dunno, I find it somewhat difficult to fathom how whatever praise/sales they get from doing stuff like this (..heck, is there any to speak of?) could outweigh the increasing backlash and "I won't buy until you stop" pledges that seem to pop up everywhere each time it comes to light, especially since, unlike other publishers who censor certain elements, they refuse to publicly discuss any of it in advance...just a guess on my part, but this strikes me as more of an internal problem than an external one (unless the ESRB has somehow gotten pickier).

I think it's actually more fear of being trashed in the media and then being labelled as 'that company' that released offensive content. Media profile is ultimately more sacred than appeasing the people who buy your games.

Changing the bikini is just dumb. It's an idol game for crying out loud.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

They should ship the game with a pack of CamiSecrets just to be safe.

"coddled college students have suddenly taken over the world" versus "overly-protective business decisions continue to happen, but are easier to track and push back against nowadays".

Which one of these is more gamergate than the other? They're both discussion points that fit with the hashtag.

[Mischief Maker]

Which one of these is more gamergate than the other? They're both discussion points that fit with the hashtag.

I thought it was about Ethics in Gaming Journalism.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

ethics cucks pls go

[BulletMagnet]

I think it's actually more fear of being trashed in the media and then being labelled as 'that company' that released offensive content. Media profile is ultimately more sacred than appeasing the people who buy your games.

That's possible, but as others have noted Nintendo not only gave Platinum an exclusive platform for Bayonetta 2, but then went and put the character in Smash Bros. (I suppose one could also bring up the "lesson" of Mortal Kombat during the Genesis/SNES wars, though these days the company is definitely not seeking the "edgy" angle as much as it was back then). If nothing else, methinks Nintendo is willing to buck its "profile" to some degree, though the methods and occasions it chooses to do so (or not do so) can sometimes appear baffling here on the outside.

They're both discussion points that fit with the hashtag.

You'd know better than I would, I imagine, but from here most of the "movement"'s energy certainly seems focused on rooting out insidious, clandestine outside parties than enacting changes within corporate culture.

[Squire Grooktook]

though the methods and occasions it chooses to do so (or not do so) can sometimes appear baffling here on the outside.

Development and publishing processes are tumultuous, convoluted, murky affair. We aren't in much of a position to guess their logic or reasoning.

We are essentially looking in at these guys through a tiny, Vaseline smeared window. Underwater.

But seriously though, fuck Tokyo Mirage Session.

[Skykid]

I think it's actually more fear of being trashed in the media and then being labelled as 'that company' that released offensive content. Media profile is ultimately more sacred than appeasing the people who buy your games.

That's possible, but as others have noted Nintendo not only gave Platinum an exclusive platform for Bayonetta 2, but then went and put the character in Smash Bros.

I don't consider Bayonetta 2 to qualify, it's kind of exceptional to being attacked with scissors for many reasons. Nintendo dumped a fuckload of money to bag it as an exclusive, it was meant to boost sales for their underperforming hardware, it had an established fanbase, was slightly before GG bullshit pushed censorship up a notch, and had already been adopted by some feminazi's as a character of empowerment.

There are too many good reasons to leave it unmolested from a business perspective. This is just the other way around.

[Mischief Maker]

I just wanted to say for the record that I love the gameplay of the DS game Super Robot Taisen OG Saga Endless Frontier Exceed.

But if some feminazi convinced Atlus to release an English translated version where the overly sexualized 12-year-old girl (who's actually a 1000-year-old oni, so it doesn't count) was removed from the game, I would consider it to be a massive improvement.

I play my DS during commutes, for fuck's sake!

[Squire Grooktook]

Age her up to 21, but keep her flat. DFC is love, DFC is life.

But only when it's legal.

[Durandal]

I just wanted to say for the record that I love the gameplay of the DS game Super Robot Taisen OG Saga Endless Frontier Exceed.

But if some feminazi convinced Atlus to release an English translated version where the overly sexualized 12-year-old girl (who's actually a 1000-year-old oni, so it doesn't count) was removed from the game, I would consider it to be a massive improvement.

I play my DS during commutes, for fuck's sake!

You will never be able to stop people from looking at you funny when you play with a DS in public, no matter how much loli you censor.

[Zen]

Agreed that (while the changes can be viewed with suspicion) analyzing Nintendo's reasoning here, is an absolute waste of time. As a company, their logic is far too obtuse.
Indeed, after two decades, I have come to the conclusion that most of it is not logic at all but a corporate comedy of errors, ignored internally through politeness and fear.

[Skykid]

Agreed that (while the changes can be viewed with suspicion) analyzing Nintendo's reasoning here, is an absolute waste of time. As a company, their logic is far too obtuse.
Indeed, after two decades, I have come to the conclusion that most of it is not logic at all but a corporate comedy of errors, ignored internally through politeness and fear.

What a load of nonsense. It's just business strategy. It always has been.

Do you know how much free publicity the Mortal Kombat censorship made, and how many parents bought their kids a SNES instead of a Megadrive for Christmas because of the purported family friendly policies?

Enough to eventually overtake the long standing Megadrive's western lead, and enough to release Mortal Kombat II uncensored when it all finally blew over and the scope for extended profit had passed.

[Zen]

Agreed that (while the changes can be viewed with suspicion) analyzing Nintendo's reasoning here, is an absolute waste of time. As a company, their logic is far too obtuse.
Indeed, after two decades, I have come to the conclusion that most of it is not logic at all but a corporate comedy of errors, ignored internally through politeness and fear.

What a load of nonsense. It's just business strategy. It always has been.

Do you know how much free publicity the Mortal Kombat censorship made, and how many parents bought their kids a SNES instead of a Megadrive for Christmas because of the purported family friendly policies?

Enough to eventually overtake the long standing Megadrive's western lead, and enough to release Mortal Kombat II uncensored when it all finally blew over and the scope for extended profit had passed.

Business strategy? Is the Wii-U an example of this business strategy you speak of? When is the payoff for that fuck-up? I'll stick to my thesis of corporate comedy of errors for the moment, thanks.
A large portion of Nintendo's business moves were suspect but they existed in a console world with low competition. Those decisions today? See Wii-U, under "fuck-ups".

How do you see the decision with this game, as a profitable strategy? Niche fan-base pissed-off, possible lost sales, bad faith perceived and remembered. Whats the payoff? Publicity? The public dont give a shit.

Maybe they did, ill advisedly, succumb to some form of GG related pressure. I dont know. My point was, that with Nintendo, its probably more difficult to discern the truth of it because, well, "because Nintendo".

[Skykid]

Business strategy? Is the Wii-U an example of this business strategy you speak of? When is the payoff for that fuck-up? I'll stick to my thesis of corporate comedy of errors for the moment, thanks.

You're obviously a studied historian, please accept my apologies.

I'm pretty sure the 'comedy of errors' dept. will know whether or not censoring shitty idol games in the west is better or worse for their business profile.

Maybe they did, ill advisedly, succumb to some form of GG related pressure. I dont know.

They're a corporation. They don't have feelings, they don't succumb to pressure. They just make decisions based on whether or not something is positive for, or potentially detrimental to, their profit margins in both long and short term.

[iconoclast]

How do you see the decision with this game, as a profitable strategy? Niche fan-base pissed-off, possible lost sales, bad faith perceived and remembered. Whats the payoff? Publicity? The public dont give a shit.

Exactly. Tokyo Mirage Sessions' only possible audience is extremely niche (Atlus RPG fans who own a Wii U for some reason). It has little mainstream appeal, even in Japan, where it sold poorly despite being highly rated. Nintendo isn't even dubbing the western version (which on its own will greatly limit any game's appeal), but they're taking time to edit images and character models, and re-record some dialogue to please... who? Nobody who would be offended by an anime girl in a bikini will even know that this game exists, let alone buy it.

I doubt Gamer Gate has anything to do with it. Nintendo's just a shitty publisher.

[Skykid]

Nintendo's just a shitty publisher.

lololol

[Durandal]

Nintendo's just a shitty publisher.

lololol

it sure as hell has been going downhill since Iwata died
http://nichegamer.com/2016/05/16/ninten ... 2-3-years/

[Skykid]

it sure as hell has been going downhill since Iwata died

Because that's been a long time already.

Nobody knows the future. Nintendo might actually go downhill, the NX might fail, they may blow their significant cash reserves on survival or decide to keep the cash and close or merge (unlikely).

Or the NX might be a success, they might still continue to dominate the handheld market like they have since the GameBoy, might invent more licenses to print money like Pokemon or Amiibo, and thrive.

What's amazing to me is the lack of general business acumen and historical education among most of today's gamers. They think because the Wii U failed to set the world on fire that the global domination of the Wii and 3DS - or the mammoth income from various existing franchises - cease to exist.

Smacks of wilful ignorance.

Sony's PS3 also failed to meet expectations, the PS Vita has tanked, and it took a decade of company losses and shareholder despair before the PS4 finally put them in the green for the fiscal year ending 2015 - by a whisker.

The marketplace is not just today, this year, or even the last three generations. It's rests on over thirty years of production.

[iconoclast]

Apple is dominating the handheld market, not Nintendo. The 3DS is a disappointment, if anything. Since you brought it up, it's actually pretty similar to the PS3 - a botched followup to one of the most successful platforms of all time that they kinda managed to turn around in the end. The only difference is that they didn't lose an obscene amount of money on it.

Looking at history actually makes it clear that the Wii was an anomaly. They roped in a huge casual audience with a motion control gimmick, and all of those people disappeared just as quickly as they jumped on board. The N64 didn't do well, the Gamecube didn't do well, and the Wii U was a complete failure. All three of those platforms had piss poor third party support, but they managed to survive because Nintendo has so many strong franchises. They haven't revealed anything about the NX yet so there's no point speculating about it, but who would be surprised if the same thing happens for the 4th time?

Anyway, my comment about Nintendo [of America] being a shitty publisher was more in reference to their poor localizations and censorship, since that's what was being discussed. Pretty much everybody that localizes Japanese games does a better job.

[Skykid]

Apple is dominating the handheld market, not Nintendo.

Well now you're just moving the goalposts. You can't compare smartphones to handheld consoles - smartphones are damaging the ENTIRE console market.

The 3DS is a disappointment, if anything.

You must be crazy. It's shipped 60 million units. That's disappointing to whom, exactly?

The 3DS within the console market is hugely successful - in-fact it's the only success there is currently. It's fuelled the Amiibo craze in-turn generating a massive new merchandising arm.

It had a slow start similarly to the GBA, but it was only a year before it began to replace the DS as the standard. It completely eclipsed the Vita and often outsold home consoles in monthly sales.

The only difference is that they didn't lose an obscene amount of money on it.

Right, now you're using your business head. Making losses counts against your capital, your shareholders, and for your future products, it's something you need to make up for. Sony didn't just make losses on PS3 hardware: all their major divisions made losses - for years.

With the success of the Wii for example - hardware sold at profit per unit from day one - Nintendo can afford several Wii U failures and still be clear. And that's not counting Pokémon, the DS and successors, and now Amiibo continuing to float the balance sheets.

Looking at history actually makes it clear that the Wii was an anomaly.

It was an anomaly in what sense? Being gimmicky? Being a success?

It certainly wasn't an anomaly in being successful. Nintendo have experienced success with most of their major products. Being gimmicky? Not really. The DS was driven by dual screens, microphone and touchscreen functionality. The 3DS by a 3D display without glasses.

In-fact the Wii U is probably the first gimmick driven console that failed since the Virtual Boy.

The N64 didn't do well

Again, this is a case of people not having market perspective. The N64 did very well indeed that generation, against competitors like the Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO and CDi, it was sitting pretty. It just couldn't catch up to the PlayStation, which blitzed everything similarly. Doesn't mean it nosedived.

They haven't revealed anything about the NX yet so there's no point speculating about it, but who would be surprised if the same thing happens for the 4th time?

Perspective. Please.

Sony had a runaway success with the PS and PS2. Its PSP did well, but was eventually outsold 2:1 by the DS. The PS3 didn't even rattle the 360 and was blitzed by the Wii. The Vita is an abject failure.

Microsoft have released 3 consoles, only one has been successful.

Sega only had one major success in hardware, eventually outsold by the Super Nintendo.

Now count Nintendo's total hardware successes and manufacturing costs to sale margins (even when factoring in the GameCube - another sold at profit per unit from day one) AND incorporate successful franchises on top of that that have long outlived and greatly eclipsed even the likes of Street Fighter.

Far from a "comedy of errors". It's one thing to play games, it's another in making educated appraisals of business motivations and historically accrued capital.

my comment about Nintendo [of America] being a shitty publisher was more in reference to their poor localizations and censorship, since that's what was being discussed. Pretty much everybody that localizes Japanese games does a better job.

Yeah but that's not what you said. I'm glad you had the sense to redact the comment anyway, as it was absurd as a standalone, especially when talking about a company with some of the greatest titles ever written under their belt.

Otherwise who gives a fuck about NoA's conduct in localising Japanese games these days. It's a dying market in light of smartphones, the number of people interested is dwindling, and Japanese games have been largely at the bottom of the interest list for about 10 years. It's only weeaboos and dedicated nerds who still care. Which ties into my comment that Nintendo's censorship of shitty idol games is a decision based on protecting the company profile within the media, especially after they had a PR rep moonlighting as hooker while also pimping out her straight boyfriend for gay sex.

[Zen]

Spoiler

Apple is dominating the handheld market, not Nintendo.

Well now you're just moving the goalposts. You can't compare smartphones to handheld consoles - smartphones are damaging the ENTIRE console market.

The 3DS is a disappointment, if anything.

You must be crazy. It's shipped 60 million units. That's disappointing to whom, exactly?

The 3DS within the console market is hugely successful - in-fact it's the only success there is currently. It's fuelled the Amiibo craze in-turn generating a massive new merchandising arm.

It had a slow start similarly to the GBA, but it was only a year before it began to replace the DS as the standard. It completely eclipsed the Vita and often outsold home consoles in monthly sales.

The only difference is that they didn't lose an obscene amount of money on it.

Right, now you're using your business head. Making losses counts against your capital, your shareholders, and for your future products, it's something you need to make up for. Sony didn't just make losses on PS3 hardware: all their major divisions made losses - for years.

With the success of the Wii for example - hardware sold at profit per unit from day one - Nintendo can afford several Wii U failures and still be clear. And that's not counting Pokémon, the DS and successors, and now Amiibo continuing to float the balance sheets.

Looking at history actually makes it clear that the Wii was an anomaly.

It was an anomaly in what sense? Being gimmicky? Being a success?

It certainly wasn't an anomaly in being successful. Nintendo have experienced success with most of their major products. Being gimmicky? Not really. The DS was driven by dual screens, microphone and touchscreen functionality. The 3DS by a 3D display without glasses.

In-fact the Wii U is probably the first gimmick driven console that failed since the Virtual Boy.

The N64 didn't do well

Again, this is a case of people not having market perspective. The N64 did very well indeed that generation, against competitors like the Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO and CDi, it was sitting pretty. It just couldn't catch up to the PlayStation, which blitzed everything similarly. Doesn't mean it nosedived.

They haven't revealed anything about the NX yet so there's no point speculating about it, but who would be surprised if the same thing happens for the 4th time?

Perspective. Please.

Sony had a runaway success with the PS and PS2. Its PSP did well, but was eventually outsold 2:1 by the DS. The PS3 didn't even rattle the 360 and was blitzed by the Wii. The Vita is an abject failure.

Microsoft have released 3 consoles, only one has been successful.

Sega only had one major success in hardware, eventually outsold by the Super Nintendo.

Now count Nintendo's total hardware successes and manufacturing costs to sale margins (even when factoring in the GameCube - another sold at profit per unit from day one) AND incorporate successful franchises on top of that that have long outlived and greatly eclipsed even the likes of Street Fighter.

Far from a "comedy of errors". It's one thing to play games, it's another in making educated appraisals of business motivations and historically accrued capital.

my comment about Nintendo [of America] being a shitty publisher was more in reference to their poor localizations and censorship, since that's what was being discussed. Pretty much everybody that localizes Japanese games does a better job.

Yeah but that's not what you said. I'm glad you had the sense to redact the comment anyway, as it was absurd as a standalone, especially when talking about a company with some of the greatest titles ever written under their belt.

Otherwise who gives a fuck about NoA's conduct in localising Japanese games these days. It's a dying market in light of smartphones, the number of people interested is dwindling, and Japanese games have been largely at the bottom of the interest list for about 10 years. It's only weeaboos and dedicated nerds who still care. Which ties into my comment that Nintendo's censorship of shitty idol games is a decision based on protecting the company profile within the media, especially after they had a PR rep moonlighting as hooker while also pimping out her straight boyfriend for gay sex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgoB2JMEowc

[Skykid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgoB2JMEowc

Wonderful response. You managed to elevate yourself from uneducated about the games industry to just plain uneducated in one link.