SNK fighters

[Shatterhand]

I've been playing with MAME lately, and playing some of the SNK fighters...

I find real amazing how SNK managed to do so many different kind of fighting games.

I mean, yeah, maybe Capcom did the best ones (And this is very debatable), But I think they may have like, 2 or 3 "types" of fighting games.

SNK has a lot of different type of fighitng games.

I mean... Each Art of Figthing game is extremely unique in style and pacing. Then you have the Samurai Shodown games, which also has a differente pace and the techniques used in this game is different from basically every other fighting game. And you have the Real Bout games, which also are very different. And then Last Blade. And of course, The King of Fighters, which is more "traditional".

And I never looked at it too much, but it seems tournament players just don't give a damn about SNK games. All fighting tournaments, videos, foruns and stuff talk only about the Capcom ones.

Why ?

[it290]

Well, I'm not a tournament (or tournament-level) player myself, but I do play a lot of fighting games. I tend to prefer SNK's stuff, but I think many of their games, like most of the SS games, are not really suitable for tournament play because of balance issues. KOF does have a good tournament scene in Japan and elsewhere though. I also think we'll see more focus on SNK Playmore (and Arc System Works') games in the future, since Capcom seems to have thrown in the towel on 2d fighting games for now.

I agree with you about the diversity of SNK's fighters -- they really succeeded in innovating the genre. I think SNK and Capcom had a synergistic relationship and each borrowed from the other to improve their games, but SNK certainly experimented more. Maybe it was because 2d fighters have been their main business for a long time, unlike Capcom -- Street Fighter may have been their cash cow for a while, but Mega Man has always been extremely popular and the RE series has probably made them more money in the long run.

SNK's experimentation paid off, too -- SS was their first game to really draw attention away from SF2 in the US, and a big part of that was the unique atmosphere and pacing and the weapons-based fighting. I'm pretty sure KOF was the first game to feature team matches, and that has been hugely influential as well. Fatal Fury's line system (although maligned by some) was what gave the game its individuality, and AOF's huge sprites, character damage system, and screen scaling certainly contributed to its early popularity.

[Neo Rasa]

I love SNK's stuff so much. They're my favorite developer ever, and I do believe they're the last primarily 2D developer left overall.

1994 through '95 was insane. Art of Fighting 2, Samurai Shodown 2 and then SS3, Fatal Fury 3 and Real Bout, KING OF FIGHTERS got started. It was mindblowing how many games they put out that had completely totally different art and musical styles as well as gameplay systems, how they didn't share sprites between series at all, it was incredible.

it290: I don't have the numbers on hand but I did crunch them years ago, I can tell you that Resident Evil 2 on the PSX alone made more money than all the ______ vs. ______ Capcom games combined. Shame in a way.

SNK's experimentation kept fighting games going for years. Almost every innovation seen in the genre began with SNK, from super moves to minor things like running, feints, etc. They were and still are extremely influential to all fighting games, even 3D fighters.

Then somehow they're even MORE amazing because they made all those great arcade games throughout the eighties, the Metal Slug series throughout the mid-nineties and on, and so on.

I do wish they did more action adventure type games, Crystalis as an example came out great.



SNK's balance is sort of a "meta-balance." ALL the characters in SNK games have some "cheap" tactic or are "overpowered" in some way. So in the end every character is a power house except for one or two. In tournament play, the players love breaking everything down to a science, and they love their tiers. It wasn't until the late nineties and up that you could really "tier" an SNK fighting game and as a result you saw Last Blade 2 getting a lot of tournament play in Texas, Garou got really hot as well. Ironic since the old method SNK had was more "balanced" overall.


But man I love everything about SNK's fighters, the gameplay, graphics, music, it comes together flawlessly. Even stuff like Art of Fighting 2 and Fatal Fury 3, composition wise the music and the animations in them hold up RIGHT NOW. It's truly phenomenal.

Man I remember the first time I played NAM'75, the stereo sound and the Apocalypse Now-like music and voice overs were incredible.

SNK's games always had an oddly darker edge to them compared to their contemporaries in the late eighties and early nineties. You never got dialogue like "Damn you bastard! I waited ten years for this!" in a Street Fighter 2 game. And the opening lines of NAM'75 are "Do I have to go back to the hell again?" The final line of the game is "The mission is over and we have returned again. Now we are called heroes, but the nightmare never ends. Great voice acting from that one guy, though everyone else is the typical SNK-lish joke.

Anyone beat Cyber-Lip? The ending of the game is that you were duped into destroying Earth's last defenses, and aliens conquer the Earth.

I think SNK was the first company to make games that took place in Vietnam in general. Weird since when Shellshock: 1967, Purple Haze: Vietcong and those other PS2/XBox Vietnam games came out the setting was basically their only selling point.


Man I love SNK's games so much it's not even funny.

Hey, I have the entire OST to NAM'75, it's catchy stuff, and shows how great the Neo Geo sound hardware is (remember that the music was done in 1989, compare that with other game music in general of the time).



SNK was also revolutionary with their use of sprite rotation and scaling graphics, stuff that wasn't really in mainstream use until the SNES and Genesis hit their stride in the early nineties, but you could see it in stuff like Time Soldiers as a matter of course.


They also did Psycho Soldliers, which was the first game ever to have an honest to God song in it with lyrics and everything. Their sound work in general was innovative and unheard of at the time, with massive use of high quality voice overs and great explosion samples way beyond anything else around in the eighties and early nineties.

I think I own more CDs from SNK than I do from any other single group.

[Ganelon]

Well, you can't give SNK all the credit (esp. to 3D games since their Hyper Neogeo 64 system was poorly planned). Sega already hit technological gold with Space Harrier and OutRun beforehand. But the Neogeo system was surely an incredible innovation in arcade architecture.

Anyway, although certain SNK games are heavily broken like SVC Chaos and KOF2003 to the point where characters get banned, many of the latest versions of their games do get good competitive play in Japan. As you may have seen in the Arcadia arcade revenue charts, a KOF is always somewhere in the middle of the rankings. It's just that not many people really like them or care to like them. That's also why many of Capcom's other fighters like Jojo, Star Gladiator, Justice Gakuen, Kikaioh, etc. just disappeared: because people really weren't that interested.

[PaCrappa]

I dislike SNK's fighting games and I want you all to know it. Last Blades and RBS was all they ever did right IMHO.

Pa

[Neo Rasa]

I dislike SNK's fighting games and I want you all to know it. Last Blades and RBS was all they ever did right IMHO.

Pa

What do you think of their shmups? Sky Soldiers, Vanguard, Ozma Wars, Last Resort and so on?

[PaCrappa]

HAHAHA! Just in case you're not kidding: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=30

I get going pretty good about halfway down the page. Don't skim over the part where I say I love the NG though.

Pa

[Neo Rasa]

HAHAHA! Just in case you're not kidding: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=30

I get going pretty good about halfway down the page. Don't skim over the part where I say I love the NG though.

Pa

Good answer.

I have to admit I do really like a lot of their pre-Neo Geo SNK shmups more than the ones on the Neo itself. Sky Adventure as an example I think has aged relatively well (and it's a notable footnote, most of the ships and special weapons in it seem to be reused verbatim in Giga Wing 2) as has Sky Soldiers despite it's at times mindbending difficulty and length.


I wish SNK made more shmups on the Neo Geo. Each one they did tries to do something cool, but none of them got sequels (unless you count Blazing Star to Pulstar or Prehistoric Isle to the non-Neo PCB) to really refine what was going on.

That said I absolutely love Alpha Mission 2 and Last Resort.

[PaCrappa]

Okay, I definitely agree with Sky Dancer. You said SNK shooters and I instantly thought of that thread which was just about the cart shooters. Also, Alpha Mission 2 is now what I would consider their best cart shooter. I almost want to buy one

Pa

[Neon]

Samurai Shodown 3, Waku Waku 7, and Real Bout Special are atmospherically great, fantastic games for multiplayer with unskilled friends (much like Xmen vs. street fighter). I probably won't go beyond a few hours of playtime with each of those though.

KOF series has the occasional good song.

[VNAF Ace]

I like SNK fighters, but I don't really want to waste a lot of money collecting them.

I usually buy fighters so I can play against my friends, and most of them prefer Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat.

[it290]

Damn, how could I forget super moves? I guess AOF was the first with them, but Fatal Fury Special was a great game. I think the joystick motions for the supers in a lot of those earlier SNK games (and for some characters in KOF) really pissed people off, though.

Anyway, WW7 was developed by Sunsoft, so although I agree that it's a fantastic game, SNK doesn't really get the credit for that one. I think many fans would prefer not to associate SNK Playmore with the old SNK as well, although personally I'm starting to have some faith in them as their games have shown much improvment since the first ones they released.

[Neo Rasa]

KoF 2002 especially, Eolith REALLY got its act together for that one. Plays like a dream and a lot of the returning characters were improved in awesome ways.

Man I love Fatal Fury Special, I think at one point I was putting more time into it than even SSFIITurbo.

[Neon]

There's a difference between FF special and Real bout FF special, right?

[VNAF Ace]

Didn't Real Bout FF have multi-line fighting (i.e. you could move to the top or bottom to fight)?

[Neo Rasa]

There's a difference between FF special and Real bout FF special, right?

Yeah you could say that. One was made in 1993 and the other in 1995.

Fatal Fury Special is an upgrade of FF2 that is superior in every possible way.

RBFF is something of a remake of the first FF but with more characters and newer gameplay. The sprites come from Fatal Fury 3 but with mostly new music and backgrounds and a LOT of new moves. Like, a ridiculously different set of moves for some character.

About two years after that Real Bout Fatal Fury Special came out, this is more like a remake of Fatal Fury Special but with the Real Bout graphics and new backgrounds/etc.

Great series.

[Neo Rasa]

Didn't Real Bout FF have multi-line fighting (i.e. you could move to the top or bottom to fight)?

Yup, FF3 and RBFF have three planes instead of two. It's also where they started the awesome combos that you could use across the planes or to hit your opponent from one plane to the other.

[Kiken]

One other thing to point out about Fatal Fury... it was the first Vs fighting game to feature Dramatic Battle (co-op teamplay, 2 on 1). The only problem was you then had to fight each other after beating up the CPU opponent.

[Shatterhand]

If I remember correctly, the super move in Art of Fighting was rear half-circle, hold A for 1/2 a second then press C. (Or something to those lines), and only Robert and Ryo had one.

And if I remember correctly, it was a PAIN in the ass to make it with the correct timing.

You also had the "Haow-ken" move, which I remember back at that time, it was also a "very cool and hard" move to do. I remember when I used to play this game when it was NEW (There was a big game store very close to my house that used to have EVERY Neo-Geo game they could get, and they would charge for an hour of gaming, not for "credits), everytime someone actually MANAGED to make the "haow-ken" move, everyone cheered

What game came first, Fatal Fury or Street Fighter 2? Both were released in the same year.

[Neo Rasa]

One other thing to point out about Fatal Fury... it was the first Vs fighting game to feature Dramatic Battle (co-op teamplay, 2 on 1). The only problem was you then had to fight each other after beating up the CPU opponent.

Actually the first fighter to do this was SNK's Street Smart from '89. Cool thing was that if you had two people playing the game would bring in a second opponent, so if one of you sucked it ended up being a human vs. two computer opponents. Then ever other match you would battle each other for bonus points (and a woman from that part of the country ).

Interesting tidbits about Street Smart:

1) The announcer in the first level is a blond guy in a red business suit, similar to Geese Howard's design in the original Fatal Fury.

2) The music for the beach level is reused almost verbatim for the Sound Beach/Michael Match stage in the original Fatal Fury.

3) Player one's portrait looks like a young Takuma Sakazaki, player two looks like the "Terry" in 3 Count Bout, and early SNK wrestling game (though both are blatantly inspired by Lex Luger when he was in the all-American get up).

Art of Fighting had the Haoh-sho-kouken (forward, HCF, A) as well as the secret technique, the Ryukoranbuu (the rapid punch move Ryo has as a regular special move in later games). That was the REAL pain in the ass one, QCF, A+B. But you had to do the motion, then let the stick go neutral for a split second, then hit A and B one after the other but JUST quickly enough to register.

What would throw people off was how you had to tap the button for the weak version of an attack and hold it for a strong version (for all normal moves as well as specials). I believe in the original game you had to hold the button down for that half second to make it a "hard" attack for the super moves to register. Been awhile though.

What was cool was how one of the bonus games to choose was you doing the Haohshokuken six times to "master" it. You had to do this to gain the move in the first place so that might also be why a lot of people had trouble. In AoF2 you have the special moves to begin with. I liked how the other bonus games in single player would upgrade your damage, your lifebar, etc.

Haoh-ken was just the standard QCF+A fireball that both Ryo and Robert have in AoF.

Supposedly Fatal Fury was completed first, but SF2 made to market beforehand.

[Shatterhand]

Haoh-Sho-Kouken , that was I meant in the first place.

I never remember the name of the moves in fighting games

Street Smart kind of sucked. I remember when I was in Bahia, in the arcade I was going there, Street Smart was on the side of Black Tiger. Only me and the arcade owner used to play Black Tiger there, heh

They also had Galaga. And 3 Street Fighters Champion Edition, Mortal Kombat, Cadillac & Dinossaurs and Super SideKicks 2 (Which was real new on that arcade, and I was the first one there to 1cc the game )

Oh, I went completely off-topic... the memories ....

[LoneSage]

I've been hooked on SNK fighters for over a year now. I'm playing KOF99 most of the time now, which is an insanely better game over the PS1 version. Despite some of the shit backgrounds (dinosaur museum), it's perhaps the most beautiful KOF. I still need to beat it with the secret Hero team (Kyo, Iori, K' and Shingo) to see the endings -- yeah, what can I say, I'm a sucker for he KOF storylines).

Other than that, I played RBFFS just to learn more about how to handle one of SNK's greatest characters, Yamazaki.
Can't fuck with a faux-Yakuza thug who fights with a hand in his pocket :)
Amazing game, though.

[Nei First]

I've been hooked on SNK fighters for over a year now. I'm playing KOF99 most of the time now, which is an insanely better game over the PS1 version. Despite some of the shit backgrounds (dinosaur museum), it's perhaps the most beautiful KOF.

Yeah, I think KOF99 Evo is the best looking game in the series. I agree the dinosaur museum looks rubbish, but the Rain stage stands as the most gorgeous level in King of fighters.

Still got to try RBFFS. My friend says it's the "Alpha 2" of the series.

[it290]

Why does everyone diss on the museum background? I always thought it was pretty good.

[Nei First]

Why does everyone diss on the museum background? I always thought it was pretty good.

It just feels out of place in a king of fighters game I think, when compared to other levels in the series. I also thought the colours were too dull and overall looked ugly. My opinion though.

[Neo Rasa]

The background pallettes (and the size of the roster) in general were greatly reduced to allow for more frames of animation on each character, music quality went down a bit too. The museum background, just given its inherent design, was hurt the most by the lack of colors.

Great game though, only flaw is that some of the new character (Whip and Maxima especially) weren't developed nearly enough, they got much cooler in later KoFs though (Maxima as an example, is almost always on my team in 2002).

Loved the Hong Kong background. Notice the animated silhouette of a guy chasing a dog with a wooden plank outside a restaurant.

That's the real reason the museum background is hurt, all the other locations are bland compared to some other KoF backgrounds, but they all have some cool stuff happening in them, most of them are all "busy" which is what the KoF backgrounds were known for. To me the airport background is the worst.

[Nei First]

To me the airport background is the worst.

That's my 2nd favourite stage in 99 Evo. I loved the graphics of the big plane taking off and landing in the background, I think that is a cool stage.

I agree about whip and maxima not being develped enough, I also hated that Vanessa was only a striker in this game too.
As for limited colour pallete problems, the worst has got to be the aquarium stage in Kof 2000, damn awful!

[it290]

Heh, see I actually like that one (aquarium stage) quite a bit too. Guess I'm just a weirdo. My favorite KOF background is the desert with all the dust kicking about, but I can't remember which game that was from -- was it '99?

[Neo Rasa]

It's from 2000.

[J-Manic]

I gotta show SNK some love. After all, they're the ones who made my favorite 2D fighter of all time, Real Bout FF Special. They've created some real masterpieces for the genre that are at the top of the food change, despite the obvious gems that Capcom has made. The ones below are essential. They're SNK's greatest fighters IMO.

Real Bout FF Special
Garou: Mark of the Wolves
Fatal Fury 3
Last Blade 1 & 2
Samurai Spirits 2 & 4
Art of Fighting 3
KOF 97-2000, 2002

SvC Chaos didn't impress me too much. Capcom still owns in the crossover department with CvS 1 & 2. I love what they did with the SNK sprites. Terry Bogard kicks much ass in both games.


What do you guys think of KOF Maximum Impact?