Fudoh's ode to old display technology

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tacoguy64
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tacoguy64 »

Guspaz wrote:His response was certainly over the top, but your initial message to him was pretty rude too, so...
I didn't think his initial message was rude at all.
He certainly could have done a better job at haggling but the initial offer of 300 Pounds was fine.


When haggling for these monitors you gotta bring up all the factors that make sellers think twice. Make them think about the hassle of shipping, ebay and paypal fees, possibility of dealing with returns, and all that other junk. Give them the peace of mind that you can make this as hassle free transaction as possible.

Now this wont always work. Sometimes you will get thick headed sellers no matter what. But a lot of the time people will listen and you can get a deal out of things.
DrKingSchultz
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by DrKingSchultz »

Xyga wrote:
Guspaz wrote:Maybe things are different where you're from, but telling somebody their price is way too high in the manner that you did is pretty rude here. That's not at all the way that I'd word a polite offer for a lower price. Just because something is true doesn't mean it isn't said in a rude way.
Tone and formulas depend on the moment and person yes, but when it's clearly too high you can straight-out say it, it's normal, as DrKingSchultz says it's business, literally normal behaviour wherever on Earth.
Unless you've done actual business you would know that if you don't say anything like that, the other guy will think you're an idiot and take advantage.
In this case though it's just the seller's that's rude and stubbornly overestimating the value of his item, plain obvious.

EDIT: and as Ed underlines it's better to walk away if the first answer is like that.
I salute you, after I read his reply I honestly wasn't interested in doing business with him, better to walk away, honestly my intention was not to offend or insult the seller as I said in my message. I just wanted a fair price, not a great price.

I apologise to the regulars in here for the thread derail, I will go back and try to do some back reading and research in this thread and try to find another good quality more readily available crt tv, that I can find and purchase in the U.K, I will report back with my findings, thank you.
cfx
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by cfx »

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DatPhosphorGlow
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by DatPhosphorGlow »

Can someone elaborate on the problems early D32 BVMs had? I remember reading about it somewhere but can't seem to find the info. I'm in the process of purchasing one and want to make sure it checks out.

Also, as I posted before, do the 16:9 flat panel D32 and D24 monitors have any disadvantage compared to the 4:3 curved tube D20? Need to make this decision asap, any input greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Ikaruga11
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Ikaruga11 »

Carthik wrote:Can someone elaborate on the problems early D32 BVMs had? I remember reading about it somewhere but can't seem to find the info. I'm in the process of purchasing one and want to make sure it checks out.

Also, as I posted before, do the 16:9 flat panel D32 and D24 monitors have any disadvantage compared to the 4:3 curved tube D20? Need to make this decision asap, any input greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Since the D24 and especially the D32 are larger, the picture won't be as sharp.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Ed Oscuro »

What's up with the "larger BVM won't be as sharp because it's bigger" posts lately? Are these from experience, or just speculation?

What I've read from pros is that the tubes went bad after some period - though exactly what that means I can't say. If the colors were drifting that might be a killer for some grading applications but not a big deal for games.

Maybe it's also possible you're thinking of issues with 240p support? That seems to be a problem with the later A series BVMs.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by alfshusen »

The sharpness of the image on a display depends on resolution and the size of the monitor. The same pixel resolution will most likely be sharper on a smaller monitor, and gradualy loose sharpness on larger monitors because the same amount of pixels are being spread out over a larger number of inches.

Such as BVM D24 and 32. They both have 1000TVL. I have them both and when compared, they are pretty close, but I can confirm that the D24 always will be a bit sharper than D32.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

but when viewing from 6 ft and + away, won't the 32 still have perfectly solid scan lines, that look like a solid line of colour where you can't spot the individual cells?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by alfshusen »

Sure, sitting further away will be better and differences will be more marginal, but in my opinion, D24 still looks sharper.

I shall calibrate both my monitors with a BKM-14L calibration probe. Then they should be dialed in equal, and then I will compare again.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by jedman »

Have been considering this BVM-D24: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-bvm-d24e ... 2383440213?

But looking at the photos it looks like the geometry may be off slightly?

I don't want pay out large amounts for a monitor unless it's pretty much perfect understandably.

Seems like most of you guys in the states have an easier time picking up BVM's for cheap, in the UK the ones on ebay are expensive and even more so from broadcast equipment sites like this one http://www.kitplus.com/FORSALE/Monitors ... 69147.html.
Exidna
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Exidna »

As long as the horizontal linearity is good, you should be able to correct just about any other geometry errors on those monitors.
If you're not willing to deal with setting that up, a BVM is probably not for you, and if you expect perfection, a CRT is not for you.
The BVMs are the best there ever was for 15kHz, but they still aren't going to have perfect geometry like a flat panel.

Price seems far too high to me considering the hours on it, but they do seem to be a lot less common, and a lot more expensive there.
It seems like most studios there must have been using JVC or Ikegami monitors instead of Sony ones for the majority of their work, unlike US studios which seem to have been dominated by Sony. At least that's the impression I get.
Sales in the US seem like they're wanting to clear out their old monitors. Sales in the UK seem like they're happy to keep them in storage somewhere until they can get some of their money back. (remember these were originally $10K+ monitors)
Just depends what you're willing to pay really.
I just don't trust that something that old, and with that many hours on it, is going to last long enough to get my money's worth. I've had too many CRTs die on me to pay much for one again unless it had really low hours.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by CobraKing »

DrKingSchultz wrote:
Xyga wrote:
Guspaz wrote:Maybe things are different where you're from, but telling somebody their price is way too high in the manner that you did is pretty rude here. That's not at all the way that I'd word a polite offer for a lower price. Just because something is true doesn't mean it isn't said in a rude way.
Tone and formulas depend on the moment and person yes, but when it's clearly too high you can straight-out say it, it's normal, as DrKingSchultz says it's business, literally normal behaviour wherever on Earth.
Unless you've done actual business you would know that if you don't say anything like that, the other guy will think you're an idiot and take advantage.
In this case though it's just the seller's that's rude and stubbornly overestimating the value of his item, plain obvious.

EDIT: and as Ed underlines it's better to walk away if the first answer is like that.
I salute you, after I read his reply I honestly wasn't interested in doing business with him, better to walk away, honestly my intention was not to offend or insult the seller as I said in my message. I just wanted a fair price, not a great price.

I apologise to the regulars in here for the thread derail, I will go back and try to do some back reading and research in this thread and try to find another good quality more readily available crt tv, that I can find and purchase in the U.K, I will report back with my findings, thank you.
With all due respect if he was asking £650, a realistic offer to him would've been anywhere from £500-£600. If he wanted to move his PVM at £250-£300 he would've priced it at £350. It's a 12 year old TV that has a niche fan base - someone will pay him what he wants or close to it.
Sid
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Sid »

CobraKing wrote:With all due respect if he was asking £650, a realistic offer to him would've been anywhere from £500-£600. If he wanted to move his PVM at £250-£300 he would've priced it at £350. It's a 12 year old TV that has a niche fan base - someone will pay him what he wants or close to it.
I think that the real issue is telling someone what their item is worth, with a "max" for emphasis no less. The worth? Well, it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Personally, I would have had a chuckle (as it seems the seller probably has a sense of humour), let the seller know that I had a chuckle, and asked if they're open to any negotiation at all on the price.

Note that the BVM-D24E1WE is from the same seller. Naturally I'd recommend sending a question asking if they wanted the monitor dropped on their head, along with an explanation about being aware of the whining done by a third party interested in another of their items.
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gojira54
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by gojira54 »

That guy on ebay UK is a rude chump, try here instead ;)
https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=55098
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Ed Oscuro »

alfshusen wrote:The sharpness of the image on a display depends on resolution and the size of the monitor. The same pixel resolution will most likely be sharper on a smaller monitor, and gradualy loose sharpness on larger monitors because the same amount of pixels are being spread out over a larger number of inches.

Such as BVM D24 and 32. They both have 1000TVL. I have them both and when compared, they are pretty close, but I can confirm that the D24 always will be a bit sharper than D32.
What kind of use case are you seeing where the D24 actually provides *a more detailed reproduction of content* than the D32?

I'm not sure of the best terminology to use here, but let's note there's a difference between the detail a display can reproduce, versus its density.

Put another way, think of camera pixel density: In photography circles comparing "100% crops" is usually considered a bad practice (though there are special cases). In short, what's done is that you take a picture from camera A with a small sensor, and display its pixels up to just the same size as those taken from camera B with a big sensor. For *certain* kinds of work this can be a useful comparison, but in photography (as in gaming) the usual practice is to consider the full image.

In most cases the comparison between camera A and B has their images normalized to the same size reproduction - like a print, or fit to a monitor - rather than "peeping" the individual pixels of the image.
FinalBaton wrote:but when viewing from 6 ft and + away, won't the 32 still have perfectly solid scan lines, that look like a solid line of colour where you can't spot the individual cells?
As FinalBaton suggests, you normalize a CRT monitor's output by sitting an appropriate distance away from it. Of course this is sometimes easier said than done.

My suggestion is that perhaps you can say that the D24 is "sharper" in terms of real space, but this isn't the same thing as saying that the D24 actually shows more detail. This would be more of an illusion stemming from the limits of human vision, if indeed the tubes have an identical TVL spec (which, you'll note, is a normalized spec which allows us to ignore the effects of size; the user is supposed to know their use case and therefore how big a set they need to purchase, with D24 appearing more appropriate for a desktop workstation and viewing distances of just one to two feet, and the D32 probably being meant for more normal TV viewing distances).

For the D32 to appear as "sharp" as the D24 you'd really need to see it have a much higher TVL spec, like comparing a 4K monitor in a large format which has the same real pixel size as a smaller 1080p one. In fact, you can have a low-TVL set give a better pixel density than a higher specced tube which is bigger...and yet the small and probably cheaper tube will naturally look sharper because it's smaller.

What that would mean is that if the D24 is an ideal size for you, then it would be a fine option. But if the user wants a bigger tube, the D32's not actually showing less detail.

To finish up my little diatribe, I'd leave this comment in closing: There's potential for eyestrain at both ends of the spectrum. Squinting or straining to see things on a too-small set is obvious, but I've also noticed that a large set needs to have sharply defined pixels as well so that there's no confusion about the boundary of each pixel. No doubt this is a big reason why 1080p has been so well accepted by many.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by alfshusen »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
alfshusen wrote:The sharpness of the image on a display depends on resolution and the size of the monitor. The same pixel resolution will most likely be sharper on a smaller monitor, and gradualy loose sharpness on larger monitors because the same amount of pixels are being spread out over a larger number of inches.

Such as BVM D24 and 32. They both have 1000TVL. I have them both and when compared, they are pretty close, but I can confirm that the D24 always will be a bit sharper than D32.
What kind of use case are you seeing where the D24 actually provides *a more detailed reproduction of content* than the D32?

I'm not sure of the best terminology to use here, but let's note there's a difference between the detail a display can reproduce, versus its density.

Put another way, think of camera pixel density: In photography circles comparing "100% crops" is usually considered a bad practice (though there are special cases). In short, what's done is that you take a picture from camera A with a small sensor, and display its pixels up to just the same size as those taken from camera B with a big sensor. For *certain* kinds of work this can be a useful comparison, but in photography (as in gaming) the usual practice is to consider the full image.

In most cases the comparison between camera A and B has their images normalized to the same size reproduction - like a print, or fit to a monitor - rather than "peeping" the individual pixels of the image.
FinalBaton wrote:but when viewing from 6 ft and + away, won't the 32 still have perfectly solid scan lines, that look like a solid line of colour where you can't spot the individual cells?
As FinalBaton suggests, you normalize a CRT monitor's output by sitting an appropriate distance away from it. Of course this is sometimes easier said than done.

My suggestion is that perhaps you can say that the D24 is "sharper" in terms of real space, but this isn't the same thing as saying that the D24 actually shows more detail. This would be more of an illusion stemming from the limits of human vision, if indeed the tubes have an identical TVL spec (which, you'll note, is a normalized spec which allows us to ignore the effects of size; the user is supposed to know their use case and therefore how big a set they need to purchase, with D24 appearing more appropriate for a desktop workstation and viewing distances of just one to two feet, and the D32 probably being meant for more normal TV viewing distances).

For the D32 to appear as "sharp" as the D24 you'd really need to see it have a much higher TVL spec, like comparing a 4K monitor in a large format which has the same real pixel size as a smaller 1080p one. In fact, you can have a low-TVL set give a better pixel density than a higher specced tube which is bigger...and yet the small and probably cheaper tube will naturally look sharper because it's smaller.

What that would mean is that if the D24 is an ideal size for you, then it would be a fine option. But if the user wants a bigger tube, the D32's not actually showing less detail.

To finish up my little diatribe, I'd leave this comment in closing: There's potential for eyestrain at both ends of the spectrum. Squinting or straining to see things on a too-small set is obvious, but I've also noticed that a large set needs to have sharply defined pixels as well so that there's no confusion about the boundary of each pixel. No doubt this is a big reason why 1080p has been so well accepted by many.
So far I'm using these monitors for 240p. It's not that D24 shows more detail, but the image just looks sharper. The D32 showing the same picture looks somewhat more coarse in appearance. Because the screen is larger, this is a natural effect when picture are being displayed with the same resolution as the smaller screen. As you were saying, D32 is probably made for people who have longer viewing distance, and D24 is made for desktop use.

The size and resolution is also mentioned in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffiR4E1id-8
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AndehX
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by AndehX »

gojira54 wrote:That guy on ebay UK is a rude chump, try here instead ;)
https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=55098
interesting. Thats the lowest price i've seen for a decent sized BVM. I wonder what its condition is like... Doesn't seem to have any inputs except RGB though :/
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

It has both the typical RGBs card plus a BKM-21D. Isn't that enough?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

AndehX wrote:
gojira54 wrote:That guy on ebay UK is a rude chump, try here instead ;)
https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=55098
interesting. Thats the lowest price i've seen for a decent sized BVM. I wonder what its condition is like... Doesn't seem to have any inputs except RGB though :/
Isn't... Isn't RGB the only input you're going to use? To buy such a nice high-end (multi-sync?) BVM and use composite or even S-Video is a bit of a disservice.

I know people often pass on BVMs that don't have the RGB card because it's incredibly hard to find; never heard of someone passing on one that didn't have a composite or S-Video board...
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Guspaz »

Sometimes people want to play their consoles until they've had the chance to RGB mod them, or want to play consoles that can't be RGB modded.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by bobrocks95 »

Guspaz wrote:Sometimes people want to play their consoles until they've had the chance to RGB mod them, or want to play consoles that can't be RGB modded.
I don't see how that's enough to warrant entirely skipping a BVM at a good price though, they don't come around very often. Surely it's not that hard to find a composite board?
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gojira54
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by gojira54 »

Think that BVM will take composite via the RGBS card.
S-video is a waste of time who cares ;)
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Guspaz »

S-Video is useful for GameCubes and N64s that have not yet been RGB/component modded, since it's far better quality than composite.

I'm not saying that someone should pass up a BVM, I'm just saying why somebody might want to use composite and s-video with a PVM/BVM. I'm currently using composite for my NES and s-video for my GameCube. Why? Because I'm not quite at the point where I can mod the NES (will install BLW first) and I'm still waiting for external gcvideo lite for the GameCube, which it seems will be quite a while longer.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Ed Oscuro »

alfshusen wrote:So far I'm using these monitors for 240p. It's not that D24 shows more detail, but the image just looks sharper.
This isn't the question I wanted answered - what matters is apparently how far you're sitting from each set. If somebody is naturally sitting farther from the 32" then it shouldn't appear any less sharp.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by AndehX »

gojira54 wrote:Think that BVM will take composite via the RGBS card.
S-video is a waste of time who cares ;)
The best you can get from a PSP is S-video.

Also, I've not passed on it. I've emailed the seller asking about the condition of the monitor etc.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by gamelife »

that seller is asking for stupid money....he wants £650 for his BVM-20F1E lol. I bought two of these last year for £130, similar condition. you just have to be patient in the UK, the problem now is that private sellers are wise to the fact that retro gamers want them to they are trying to hike the prices up.

the best thing to do is to wait for companies who go in and clear out old stock etc and list loads at the same time, that's the only way to get a good deal.

and he also wants £950 for his D24... the fact that these monitors are highly sought after doesn't mean they should command this type of price...end of the day these monitors can break at any point so unless your really desperate for a BVM i'd never pay more than £100 :)
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by atheistgod1999 »

AndehX wrote:The best you can get from a PSP is S-video.
It also supports YPbPr.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by AndehX »

atheistgod1999 wrote:
AndehX wrote:The best you can get from a PSP is S-video.
It also supports YPbPr.
Had no luck running PS1 classics over component though.

I've been quoted £70 for pallet delivery on that BVM (the one on bblist) Im pained to pay it, but after 6 months, i've yet to come across a good BVM at a reasonable price in the UK, until now. I don't think I can pass on the opportunity.
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Guspaz »

AndehX wrote:
atheistgod1999 wrote:
AndehX wrote:The best you can get from a PSP is S-video.
It also supports YPbPr.
Had no luck running PS1 classics over component though.

I've been quoted £70 for pallet delivery on that BVM (the one on bblist) Im pained to pay it, but after 6 months, i've yet to come across a good BVM at a reasonable price in the UK, until now. I don't think I can pass on the opportunity.
My Life in Gaming covered PSOne Classics on the PSP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7fCTHu99bk

The PSP segment is at the 14 minute mark. The PSP does support PS One classics over component, outputting a very tiny 1:1 image in progressive mode, and outputting 240p when set to interlaced mode.

Perhaps it's an NTSC vs PAL thing?
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Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by AndehX »

Guspaz wrote:My Life in Gaming covered PSOne Classics on the PSP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7fCTHu99bk

The PSP segment is at the 14 minute mark. The PSP does support PS One classics over component, outputting a very tiny 1:1 image in progressive mode, and outputting 240p when set to interlaced mode.

Perhaps it's an NTSC vs PAL thing?
Hmm, well I only ever tried PSP component on my Samsung LED TV, so maybe it just didn't like 240p over component. Whatever the case, I bought the BVM on bblist. Originally wanted £150 + VAT + £70 delivery, which would have come to around £250. Managed to bring him down to £204, which im pretty happy with. I'm so happy to be able to replace my 450TVL PVM with something alot better.
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