DOOM4/nuDoom/Brutal Halo/Call of Doomy/Brutal Quake 4 Thread

[Mischief Maker]

I can't believe nobody has linked to this yet!

Or this!

[Ed Oscuro]

The most important thing is obviously whether it will have "retro levels" and Skyrim iron helmets as armor items like The Old Blood.

Brutal Doom is one of the most fleshed out mods that I ever played that isn’t a total conversion and is definitely worth your time

Brutal DOOM certainly goes that extra mile, but there are actually tons of DOOM mods that are almost that comprehensive. I think a person could easily spend 10 years, if not longer, just hitting the high points here.

Why play something new and nextgen (if it's bad) if you haven't at least finished up the classics like Blood and even Redneck Rampage? Lots of fun is still to be had in the classics. /tangent

[broken harbour]

I really loved Shadow Warrior as a teenager, speaking of which, didn't that also get a next gen reboot that was less than stellar?

[Ikazu-san]

Too slow
Not enough blue

[Squire Grooktook]

Too slow
Not enough blue

Concise.

[Durandal]

I really loved Shadow Warrior as a teenager, speaking of which, didn't that also get a next gen reboot that was less than stellar?

it was alright, it focused more on swordfighting which I liked, but the guns still felt pretty underpowered in comparison

[Opus131]

Brutal Doom is great, but i'm more of a vanilla Doom kinda of guy.

That said, i find this notion that Brutal Doom captures the true essence of Doom to be a bit annoying. Doom isn't just about the violence and mayhem. It is also about the atmosphere, or the great level design, or the perfection of the gunplay and so forth. You don't just put some stupid quick time gore animation in your game because you saw people play Brutal Doom and think this is what Doom is all about.

[Squire Grooktook]

Doom is such a brilliantly genre busting game when you get down to it. You could draw parallels between it's gameplay and everything from shmups to dungeon crawls.

[Mischief Maker]

I really loved Shadow Warrior as a teenager, speaking of which, didn't that also get a next gen reboot that was less than stellar?

It was a frustrating game because a few small adjustments could have made it great.

To whit:

The guns weren't worth a crap unless fully upgraded, and the only way to pay for upgrades was finding hidden secrets, and the sword charge-up shoot move was flat out superior to all the guns on top of having infinite ammo.

[Opus131]

In other news, it looks like there might be some hope for a new FPS made the right way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbDQSOmwA20

Can he do it, after years of living in disgrace? Could he truly redeem himself? I want to believe.

[Durandal]

His new E1M8 rendition shows he's still got it.
Daikatana should have taught him the meaning of restraint, so just maybe, the faint light of Incline hasn't completely died out.

[Ed Oscuro]

I really loved Shadow Warrior as a teenager, speaking of which, didn't that also get a next gen reboot that was less than stellar?

it was alright, it focused more on swordfighting which I liked, but the guns still felt pretty underpowered in comparison

I just finished it up recently and I ended up spending a lot more time with the guns than the sword near the end of the game. They're powerful enough.

Also yeah, I did feel that the game wasn't stellar. Like Hard Reset, the game has flashes of brilliance in its design and levels, but there's also just too much dead space and areas that don't do much for me. Which leads me to...

That said, i find this notion that Brutal Doom captures the true essence of Doom to be a bit annoying. Doom isn't just about the violence and mayhem. It is also about the atmosphere, or the great level design, or the perfection of the gunplay and so forth. You don't just put some stupid quick time gore animation in your game because you saw people play Brutal Doom and think this is what Doom is all about.

That's it in a nutshell for me. Brutal DOOM has only so much appeal to me because it's not giving more levels. Of course I'm more of an exploration-focused guy (usually) so I find it annoying when WADs or mods treat a base game as a sandbox without putting together new level content.

I think Romero always was a good guy and the anti-hype machine of Daikatana set him back. His comments in the "Devs play" series on DOOM show he still knows what level design is about. I don't think he's the only master of level design, or the only person who could do it, but it all depends on whether some source of funding is going to roll the die instead of just creating another sandbox action game with no level design, while the masters of level design get promoted to "game designer" and the actual level design gets left to interns.

[qmish]

1) BrutalDoom is not about "wow violence" only, it's a bit deeper. Total overhaul of how weapons work etc. And if you play it on hard difficulties it's more tactic than Rainbow Six series especially in coop. Though some folks prefer vanilla only , some prefer Demonstelee etc.

2) Daikatana (pc) was, is and will be excellent game that will be still forever hated for several things (stupid sidekicks ai, green green green swamp with Mosquitos etc.) which I never understand why they continue hate it with such passion. Maybe because I first played it in ~2006 so hype drama never touched me and I got alright shooter with great levels and weapons instead.

[Mischief Maker]

2) Daikatana (pc) was, is and will be excellent game that will be still forever hated for several things (stupid sidekicks ai, green green green swamp with Mosquitos etc.) which I never understand why they continue hate it with such passion. Maybe because I first played it in ~2006 so hype drama never touched me and I got alright shooter with great levels and weapons instead.

Spoiler

Among other reasons. Daikatana was probably the ultimate video game hype public relations train wreck and it's what MADE the site Old Man Murray.

[qmish]

Ah, right

Anyway it's interesting if he ll do something nowodays; while Tom Hall (yeah I also love Anachronox, and , I m such an Ion Storm fanboy, hello to Deus Ex too) only tweets about how great Mario maker wiiu is also American McGee if we remember old id crew

[BIL]

I still love a good vanilla Doom nightmare run. Nothing since has balanced tension with action quite as well. You think you're safe then HISS and a cacodemon drops down in front of you!

I sympathise with Kaiser and Obscura's dislike for BDOOM and its fandom, but I find its Black Metal difficulty a huge improvement to the OG trilogy's Nightmare. NM was always too much of a footrace/vehicular combat game for my liking... no point killing anything not directly blocking your path - you'll just waste ammo and give other stuff time to close in. Black Metal's far more aggressive monsters make slaughter practical and fun again. Even with respawn enabled, there's much more of a raucously violent push/pull than plain ol' runrunrunrun.

About DOOM III and horror - I thought its setting and atmosphere had great potential, with the early game's inexplicable occult terrors and foreshadowings of Delta Lab as the heart of madness. Then narrative kicked into high gear and the bed was shat in a deluge of corn-ridden overexposition. Dr. Wiley has stolen the eight magical herbs, you say?! Ultimately it was just Quake II: Can't See Shit Motherfucker Label. A few wordless snapshots of the torturous trudge to Delta's improvised demon fortress remain, as fondful memories. 3: Like passing through a silent horror of a reception area, into the relative warmth of an elevator illuminated by red sun and a view of Martian desert, before the door *pinged* open on a long, oppressively dark hallway. But wait - Captain HardBuns and Corporate Officer McNefarious are arguing in a cutscene. Now that's really interesting.

Would love a proper modern take on the unfettered joys of OG DOOM's surreal puzzlebox deathchambers, but this doesn't look to be attempting that. Will echo Mr. Oscuro on WADs being the salvation, and fuck, probably Quake .BSPs too.

edit: *BDOOM and its fandom

[qmish]

Quake II: Can't See Shit Motherfucker

Just play in software mode) or ps1 port

[BIL]

Wait, you mean Quake II's visibility? That's not what I meant - QII itself is fine, in either hardware or software mode.

What I mean is that Doom III, in terms of level design and action, is only ever Quake II with the lights turned off. Not necessarily bad... but for a horror game aspiring to a believable setting, it's reductive. Lots of pressure-triggered monster closets in random offices and warehouses. If you're gonna have a surprise monster attack, take a page outta Resident Evil and use an actual closet. Or a window, or a skylight. Or given DIII's occult theme, do like Silent Hill and judiciously undermine the player's spatial confidence - doors and hallways not always being where you left them, or working as expected. Either way, it has to be aesthetically congruous. What were those monsters doing in there anyway, jacking off? That's not very scary. DIII does of course demonstrate both blunt and surreal horror craft, but the prevalence of funhouse traps straight outta 1993 lets it down.

I did love the late scene where a spider hideously unfolds itself from behind a monitor you're reading. Spiders do that shit IRL and I hate it, brrr.

[Opus131]

What I mean is that Doom III, in terms of level design and action, is only ever Quake II with the lights turned off.

I disagree. Quake 2 had actual level design, with a hub structure a la Hexen. Doom 3 was 100% linear. The environments looked very meticulous and i can appreciate the work they put into making them, but other than that Doom 3 was a gigantic pile of crap. As was Half Life 2 to think it (again, despite the excellent visuals and amazing production values). As far as i'm concerned, 2005 was the beginning of the end for shooters as a genre. A couple of interesting exceptions here and there, but that was the turning point for me.

[qmish]

You, half-life 2 haters

Also dont mistake level design with overall structure of games.

[Ed Oscuro]

I also can't think of many FPSes post 2005 that stuck with me. Guess this is part of the reason why many people still think fondly of the Soldier of Fortune games (which were really pretty chintzy in many respects) and why I have never been able to completely swear off Condition Zero: Deleted Scenes - there's actual level design.

Maybe I could make a couple exceptions here - STALKER has some good stuff as did the original Call of Duty MW. Haven't tried anything since the original STALKER and the MW series fell off the rails straight away.

2) Daikatana (pc) was, is and will be excellent game that will be still forever hated for several things (stupid sidekicks ai, green green green swamp with Mosquitos etc.) which I never understand why they continue hate it with such passion. Maybe because I first played it in ~2006 so hype drama never touched me and I got alright shooter with great levels and weapons instead.

Pacing was a bit off and some of the level transitions were obnoxious. Most of the good content was squeezed in at the end. Decent game, but not really an all-time classic.

As far as spiders and monitors go, there were some really tiny ones that were very persistent about bungeeing down in front of me, repeatedly. I kept flinging them off too the side; hard to get scared of something the size of a sand grain.

[qmish]

Stalker still holds up today in my opinion, though sequels didn't caught me as they lost that feel of "conquering Zone". In first Stalker the farther you go into game world the crazier it gets. Though there were some unofficial mods who were praised for bringing more challenge and expanding survival aspect, like Misery for third game.

It's always funny how jRPG crowd cries that everyone makes fps while we don't have them as many as they say if you don't count amateur/indie.

Another late 90s fps that deserves more respect that it got is kiss psycho circus. Nice weapons, levels and fast pacing. Sadly after half-life/metal gear solid people were all about "smart" and "cinematic" until they returned their love to Serious Sam and, later , Painkiller.

[Mischief Maker]

The original Serious Sam is the real Doom 3.

I wish Serious Sam the second encounter was better as they filled some gaping holes in the weapon arsenal, but even though the environments were improved, the levels themselves were alternately boring (straight open hallway filled with cannon ammo) or irritating (bouncy kamikaze room) with the exception of the Babylon levels that felt like Serious Sam 1 again.

[BIL]

Oh shit, I love the new Archvile design. Surprised they went with something so controversial... and the new method of countering his attack looks rad, too.

Spoiler

I'm a little more optimistic now.

[gameoverDude]

What I mean is that Doom III, in terms of level design and action, is only ever Quake II with the lights turned off.

I disagree. Quake 2 had actual level design, with a hub structure a la Hexen. Doom 3 was 100% linear. The environments looked very meticulous and i can appreciate the work they put into making them, but other than that Doom 3 was a gigantic pile of crap. As was Half Life 2 to think it (again, despite the excellent visuals and amazing production values). As far as i'm concerned, 2005 was the beginning of the end for shooters as a genre. A couple of interesting exceptions here and there, but that was the turning point for me.

It's a shame that Quake 4 threw out the hub structure. Q4 is also slower than Q2. Matthew Kane moves slow compared to Bitterman from Q2. Quake 4 is too close to Doom 3, and is a letdown considering Raven made it.

Hard Reset is very good. The cyberpunk theme is nice for a change. HR does have a path to follow through the levels, but allows for a fair bit of exploration to find NANO currency to upgrade your weapons as you like, and does dish out some good mobs. Some trips off the main path will lead to extra encounters that can help you get more NANO, and maybe a better score at the level's end. Gravity grenades are cool especially when used to suck enemies into electric arc traps. Flying Wild Hog is set to release a Redux version of it sometime soon. I'll gladly buy it.

The Shadow Warrior reboot isn't bad IMO. At least the sword can be used for some cool special attacks. Because you're able to heal yourself to a certain point with a magic ability, I recommend starting on Hard. I think FWH could have made a better Duke Nukem 4 than what Gearbox gave us.

Soldier of Fortune: Payback was a total cockup. Done by Raven, the first two games were decent. Devloper Cauldron remembered to bring heavy gore and violence, but forgot to make it play better than a 2nd-rate Call of Duty ripoff. The cliffhanger ending was lamely done also. Graphically updated HD versions of the first two SoF titles would have been better. Rather than SoFP, try any Treyarch CoD title (World at War, or the Black Ops series). These have the gore, but also are fairly decent games.

[Squire Grooktook]

I only played the original version of Hard Reset briefly, and while it had some nice chaotic action, two things really struck down the experience for me:

1: too many "chase you" type enemies. Needed more telegraphed projectiles to dodge (ala imps. cacodaemons, etc.)

2: normal move speed a bit slow, needs speedier default movement IMO

Seemed like a fun time though, and the aesthetic is indeed very nice. I should revisit it sometime. Wasn't there an updated version?

[Opus131]

The original Serious Sam is the real Doom 3.

I wish Serious Sam the second encounter was better as they filled some gaping holes in the weapon arsenal, but even though the environments were improved, the levels themselves were alternately boring (straight open hallway filled with cannon ammo) or irritating (bouncy kamikaze room) with the exception of the Babylon levels that felt like Serious Sam 1 again.

The lack of real level design was a big problem with both Serious Sam and Painkiller. You only got half the package with those games.

[Opus131]

Q4 is also slower than Q2. Matthew Kane moves slow compared to Bitterman from Q2.

Which is a problem because Q2 was already too slow. That was one of my biggest issues with the game (art style aside). Compared to Quake 1, which was very fast paced with difficult or tricky AI but almost ethereal and "floaty" in feel, Quake 2 was very slow and clunky, with punchy weapons but clumsy and hesitant AI. One gets the feeling they were trying to make the game closer to Doom than Quake but overstepped along the way. Still a fun game though, and certainly no where near as bad as Doom 3.

[Durandal]

The original Serious Sam is the real Doom 3.

I wish Serious Sam the second encounter was better as they filled some gaping holes in the weapon arsenal, but even though the environments were improved, the levels themselves were alternately boring (straight open hallway filled with cannon ammo) or irritating (bouncy kamikaze room) with the exception of the Babylon levels that felt like Serious Sam 1 again.

The lack of real level design was a big problem with both Serious Sam and Painkiller. You only got half the package with those games.

I think people are quick to dismiss games like Serious Sam on terms of level design because the game usually takes place in large open arenas with no particular unique level design. Serious Sam relies more on enemy placement rather than level layouts and architecture, which I think is something people tend to overlook. Although it doesn't mean that level layout should be completely disregarded in Serious Sam.

[qmish]

relies more on enemy placement

Sounds like danmaku