GamerGate - and it's continuing aftermath.

[Opus131]

Some aren't raised that way, thankfully.

Here's an exception, that proves there is no rule!

[Opus131]

To compare it to the truck vs doll analogy, from my experience video games are more appealing to a much greater number of women then toy trucks are to girls. It's a much more diverse, exciting, intellectually stimulating medium with a lot of different appeals to a lot of different people then a mere action figure.

Right. So technically, there is no problem, other than the fact the vast majority of women still don't want to have anything to do with them.

Then again, a big chunk of men don't care about games either, since stuff like Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto are pretty much the male counterpart to Bejeweled. Same goes for stuff like Deer Hunter, which at one point was one of the highest selling games of all times.

[Squire Grooktook]

To compare it to the truck vs doll analogy, from my experience video games are more appealing to a much greater number of women then toy trucks are to girls. It's a much more diverse, exciting, intellectually stimulating medium with a lot of different appeals to a lot of different people then a mere action figure.

Right. So technically, there is no problem.

I never said there is a problem*, at least not on this front. Like I said, for me, everything just comes back to creativity and avoiding the different kinds of stagnation that plague different parts of the medium. Keep in mind that what I said above is what games have been and what they frequently have the potential to be, but that all goes to naught if call of duty 18 is the only thing on the market.

*Well, maybe a few little things could be improved here and there in terms of genre diversity and such, but the type of things I file under "nitpicks" and don't spend too much time thinking about (except when I'm actually brainstorming a game of my own, in which case it's my duty to be nitpicky).

other than the fact the vast majority of women still don't want to have anything to do with them.

And that's where you're wrong. As I said before, women playing games is not a majority but it's still a pretty large demographic. A lot of girls do play games, in my experience.

[e_tank]

I could imagine a really weak heterosexual man being pressured into gay for pay. But announcing it publicly? I say closet case subconsciously begging to be outed.

It's one thing to groom your partner to give you oral, it's another to groom someone to eschew their sexual orientation and take a stranger's cock up the ass for a monthly supermarket budget.

lol, u guys do make good points but i want to add, and pls read the whole thing b4 u go off on me (and we prob agree on this first point here), that i think pretty much any straight man who tells you they wouldn't go gay for pay is lying, in the end it all comes down to cost be it monetary or otherwise. if a rich male stranger offered you >= 1 million usd for sex and a. you were guaranteed to receive payment, b. you'd never see that person again and no one would find out unless you told them, c. you wouldn't get an std, and d. he's so rich you needn't feel guilty about taking the money - i'd imagine 99% of hetero men would take this offer.

now, i think the reason the cost is so prohibitively high for so many hetero men in the first place doesn't have so much to do with sexual preference or how hetero one is, i think it's more likely due to societal norms that have been so ingrained into us. if these didn't exist dudes offering other dudes handies or more for money/favors might be as common place as male masseuses. case in point, it's not uncommon for male animals in the wild to pleasure each other sexually for various reasons, shit male giraffes fuck other males more often than they do females!

anyway, my whole point is if mr rapp really believes the same kind of stuff that i've heard come from mrs rapp, his cost - again which i'm arguing is determined more by ones values vs sexual preference, could reasonably be quite low compared to the avg guy.

honestly idk though, i don't really feel strongly about any of this shit, i just think it's a fun topic to discuss and explore. dunno what that says about me, but frankly i don't care

It's only natural to aim to females; if more of them see gaming as something any normal woman can enjoy, companies will profit more from a larger market. I see nothing wrong with this; if there are not more women playing games it's because it's not seen as a socially accepted thing to do for them.

Hell, it's barely accepted for men; most people will think you are an immature manchild if they ever find you enjoy gaming. People who find watching sports they don't play or some dumb soap opera the adult thing to do.

amen brother

[Opus131]

But "important" in what sense? You mean they are large enough of a demographic that the industry should focus on them? Focus how, and doesn't that mean you believe women are different?

[Squire Grooktook]

But "important" in what sense? You mean they are large enough of a demographic that the industry should focus on them? Focus how, and doesn't mean you believe women are different?

I already said that women are different. Like 3 times. But that doesn't mean they're aren't a helluva lot of them that like fun things (like games). You can be different and still like something that someone who's different from you likes.

Anyway, I think I've made this pretty clear by now. As I said, not everyone needs to cater to anyone, but just keeping in mind that there are feminine tastes out there might be nice, and might encourage some artists to be more artistic and creative. Girls like pretty things is a pretty popular stereotype, and if such things are true as you suggest, then I'm all for artists embracing that and making more attractive environments then all this brown and grey shit everywhere!

Like hey, instead of making our protagonist another bald space marine, how about say...a frog girl with a grappling hook tongue? No wait that would be original and fun, from both a gameplay and aesthetic perspective.

Or how about just anything besides a bald space marine.

Actually I do know a girl who really likes Warhammer 40k though.

[Opus131]

I like how you went from "we should make things that appeal to women" to "let's change things men like so they can appeal to women also" in the span of the same argument.

[Squire Grooktook]

appeal more to men too, at the same time. A lot of guys (particularly those with taste) are sick of this generic aaa crap. I assume you are one such man too, considering the disdain which you just spoke of grand theft auto and call of duty just now, and of modern gaming in general when you mentioned your experience with dark souls.

Of course, that's no reason that bald space marines and grand theft autos and call of duties should disappear altogether either. But it would be nice if the same damn formula didn't dominate the market so ridiculously. Many people are getting tired of it, as evidenced by how much of a dirty word some of these franchise titles are becoming.

Anything that helps games become more creative and exciting is to me a good thing. If designers try out more fanciful art styles or quirky characters in an attempt at grabbing more widespread appeal, then as someone who values creativity, that's A-OKAY with me.

But, we are getting into a far reaching subject (aka "fuck modern gaming") that goes beyond just male vs female and into a much broader realm of creativity and artistic liberty vs formula and stagnation.

[Opus131]

appeal more to men too, at the same time.

Well, all i can say is that your frog girl with grappling hook tongue doesn't appeal to me. In fact, i have a deep seated aversion for that kind of crap, which is why i tend to avoid so called "indie" games if i can help it (where that type of "ironic" lol random stuff is so endemic). I grew up on HUGE GUTS RIP AND TEAR. I have already an hard time getting used to all this loli crap that plagues so many shmups.

A lot of guys are sick of this generic aaa crap.

Only because the AAA crap in question is, well, crap. Give me a Call of Duty game that doesn't suck donkey balls over your frog girl with a grappling hook tongue any day.

I assume you are one such man too, considering the disdain which you just spoke of grand theft auto, and of modern gaming when you mentioned your experience with dark souls.

I'm a gamer. A lot of people who play Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto aren't gamers.

But you are right, we are really digressing here. But there is one thing that needs pointing out, and that is whether women themselves actually care about those efforts to appeal to them. Overwatch is full of characters designed to appeal to women, but the only ones i can see women actually identifying with are the ones that have been triggering feminists the most, like Tracer.

See, what women actually like often has nothing whatsoever to do with that feminists say women like.

[Squire Grooktook]

Well, all i can say is that your frog girl with grappling hook tongue doesn't appeal to me.

See, guys like lots of different things too! I can get into manly kung fu* and such as well, but at times you just need the Nintendo/Ghibli school of sky-high jumping fat plumbers and all devouring pink marshmallows to brighten things up.

Also grappling hooks are FUN.

*also even there, diversity of character design is essential to creating a vibrant, aesthetically pleasing world and cast.

[Opus131]

Yeah. Too bad all the male King of Fighters characters look like women, thus making the game extremely visually unappealing.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think we're about done here.

[Blinge]

Yeah. Too bad all the male King of Fighters characters look like women, thus making the game extremely visually unappealing.

Personally, I find women & femininity visually appealing.
:]

[Opus131]

Seriously though. The fallacy with the article is that of comparing games made by cultures that have a completely different aesthetic sensibility. The Japanese are a very "visual" oriented people, and have a predilection for visual variety or inventiveness even when it defies common sense, good taste or realism. Westerners tend to favor things that are more grounded in reality. This is why many western games have a subdued, "no nonsense" but also often kinda drab type of aesthetic.

Obviously this does not apply to every single game, and there's certainly a massive cross fertilization between the two cultures, but the trend i just described is definitely there, and which one is better is a matter of preference.

[Opus131]

Yeah. Too bad all the male King of Fighters characters look like women, thus making the game extremely visually unappealing.

Personally, I find women & femininity visually appealing.
:]

I like femininity too. On women.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah. Too bad all the male King of Fighters characters look like women, thus making the game extremely visually unappealing.

I think this might become my new sig

[NTSC-J]

[Squire Grooktook]

[Hagane]

Some aren't raised that way, thankfully.

Here's an exception, that proves there is no rule!

And why do you think she's an "exception"?

Because of how she was raised. Give a girl a set of chess or a videogame and she'll like them as much as any male. "Girls like to play with dolls, while boys like to play with trucks." is not accurate. Girls are given dolls and cooking sets with no alternative, because oh my how could she play Street Fighter she will end up being a dyke and not marry a wealthy man and give me grandchildren. How do you expect them to like games as much as boy when they don't have the option (until later in their life, but that's usually too late), and they are often discouraged from playing them because "oh no that's how boys play, you don't want everyone to think you are a tomboy, do you"?

Yeah there aren't as many female players as men right now. There were none before, just like there weren't professionals, presidents and CEOS that were female. But now there are. And the number of them will only rise, so while nerds cry companies are seeing a potential new market. Women are huge on mobile gaming already, because everyone has a cellphone. I see dozens of middle aged women playing shit like Candy Crush on the train every single day. Same will happen with consoles, eventually.

[Opus131]

Sorry, no. Men and women are wired differently. They have different natures which determine different outcomes. This notion that you can alter what a person is with the "right" upbringing, under the rubric that everything is a "social construct" is a load of crap, and all efforts to engineer society accordingly have not produced the desired results.

[Skykid]

And why do you think she's an "exception"?

Because of how she was raised. Give a girl a set of chess or a videogame and she'll like them as much as any male. "Girls like to play with dolls, while boys like to play with trucks." is not accurate. Girls are given dolls and cooking sets with no alternative, because oh my how could she play Street Fighter she will end up being a dyke and not marry a wealthy man and give me grandchildren.

You keep referring to the argument that gender roles are created through social conditioning. This has already been scientifically disproven. Males and females naturally gravitate towards masculine and feminine objects from the earliest ages. Girls like playing with dolls because of nascent maternal instinct, boys with guns because we're protective predators.

There are no absolutes and plenty of sway and overlap, but if you need proof look what happened to that gender free nursery in Sweden or wherever.

[Squire Grooktook]

I have to agree with Skykid. As I understand, men and women literally have different brain structures, on top of things like hormones and such. Hard to argue for Tabula Rasa, and I'm not even sure I find that to be an attractive ideal anyway.

But like I said, while slanted towards boyishness due to their emphasis on action, games have enough going on (at least, at their best) that they cross the gender appeal line far easier then action figures or toy trucks.

I do believe that the gaming population will always be slightly slanted towards males, but not by an overwhelming majority. I'd imagine it'll probably be something like 60/40 or 70/30 at most instead of 50/50. I think that's fine. Personal experience has cemented this opinion in my mind.

[Hagane]

Sorry, no. Men and women are wired differently. They have different natures which determine different outcomes. This notion that you can alter what a person is with the "right" upbringing, under the rubric that everything is a "social construct" is a load of crap, and all efforts to engineer society accordingly have not produced the desired results.

This is a load of crap. The place you are born into, the social standing of your family, your upbringing and national culture make a huge impact on an individual's personality. If you are born in a family of musicians there are big chances you will be interested in music, if you are born in a wealthy family with access to good education and culture you are much more likely to be well educated an cultured than if you are born in a family of poor illiterates who can barely eat every day, and if you are born in a country where religious fanatism is the norm you will most likely be a fanatic of that religion. Just look at the people around you and you'll realize that the vast majority of people are extremely influenced by their backgrounds.

A good example of this is football. In this country it's almost exclusively a sport for men. The few girls who play it are mocked and seen as tomboys and lesbians. They are expected to pick field hockey instead. So we have a powerful male team and an amateur female team (and, on the other hand, one of the strongest female field hockey teams in the world). Now look at the US, where this is the opposite. Men are expected to play "manly" sports such as American football, baseball, hockey or basketball, "soccer" seen as a feminine sport. Result, they have mediocre to bad male teams and strong female teams.

What is seen as socially acceptable in a country has a big impact on people's choices.

Also, people speak of choice when the fact is that girls have no such choice in the vast majority of homes. Really, are you going to tell me that most little girls are offered both videogames and dolls and told "here you have these, pick whichever you want!"? No, 99% of the time they are given only the doll or the cooking set. So, where's the choice? If I was only given dolls and cooking sets as a child and been told that videogames weren't appropiate for me, or mocked at school for playing them, I would probably not care about videogames today.

The thing is, playing is part of a child's education. And games have been taught to children since ancient times not really out of their choices but largely to educate them for their future expected roles. That made sense in a time where survival was an everyday thing, when physical strenght (an area where there's really no arguing that males clearly surpass women) was key. So definite roles were the most efficient, and from back then we get the weapons and competitive games for boys, who were expected to compete and fight, and baby dolls for girls who were expected to become mothers.

Does this still make sense nowadays, when physical strenght is less and less relevant (even when it comes to fighting)? Giving games that encourage competitivity to girls makes perfectly sense to me, if you want her to be something other than a housewife.

This has already been scientifically disproven.

By whom? The guys who one year say that eating eggs is bad for your health and the next tell you that no, they are actually great at reducing bad cholesterol? The people who spend thousands of dolars and hours studying animals and finally realize that, yes, animals can apparently feel? I'd rather go by what I see everyday. A fact is that lots of women play games on their cellphones. I see that everyday, no need for some half assed moneysink "scientifical" study to tell me otherwise.

The biological differences between men and women are greatly exaggerated, as if being from a gender automaticaly excluded you from an activity, and that's just silly. Yesteryear the same arguments were raised for every other field outside of house chores and child raising. Why give a girl a musical instrument, a pencil or a comic book if those are things men would do? Hopefully things have changed and because of that I can enjoy the art of a Michiru Yamane, Kinu Nishimura or Kaoru Mori.

[Durandal]

and because of that I can enjoy the art of a Michiru Yamane

you're probably referring to Ayami Kojima, Michiru Yamane was the composer of SotN, not the artist

[Skykid]

This has already been scientifically disproven.

By whom? The guys who one year say that eating eggs is bad for your health and the next tell you that no, they are actually great at reducing bad cholesterol? The people who spend thousands of dolars and hours studying animals and finally realize that, yes, animals can apparently feel? I'd rather go by what I see everyday. A fact is that lots of women play games on their cellphones. I see that everyday, no need for some half assed moneysink "scientifical" study to tell me otherwise.

The biological differences between men and women are greatly exaggerated, as if being from a gender automaticaly excluded you from an activity, and that's just silly. Yesteryear the same arguments were raised for every other field outside of house chores and child raising. Why give a girl a musical instrument, a pencil or a comic book if those are things men would do? Hopefully things have changed and because of that I can enjoy the art of a Michiru Yamane, Kinu Nishimura or Kaoru Mori.

Go googling.

I already mentioned that there are no absolutes and plenty of sway, and there are no constants in gender. It's perfectly possible and acceptable for either gender to adopt material things or interests not necessarily designed for their gender. This extends from simple amusement and creative interests right down to transsexuality.

At the same time there were extensive scientific tests with infant primates designed to see which objects, toys and garments they gravitated to. The test was designed to see how they would react without the social influences you refer to. The results were resoundingly conclusive. The males went for trucks and guns became protective over them, while the females took the dresses, dolls, brushes and other feminine objects, and became equally protective over them.

Elsewhere there was some Scandinavian or something (I forget the location) scientific institute for gender research that was shut down in a public scandal after it was shown that after spending billions of taxpayers money to prove the exact thing you're stating, after all their years in operation they hadn't managed to produce one shred of tangible proof that gender binaries are root caused by influencing social factors.

[Hagane]

Durandal:

Nah I meant Yamane the composer. Art can be used for music in English, right? We do in Spanish.

I do like Kojima too. Except when she gets too homoerotic.

[Squire Grooktook]

and because of that I can enjoy the art of a Michiru Yamane

you're probably referring to Ayami Kojima, Michiru Yamane was the composer of SotN, not the artist

Music is art too. But CV is a good example of a series with a strong feminine influence (both art and music) which added a unique and gorgeous aesthetic to it. Exactly what I was talking about a while back.

Most of what I believe about gender/sex is what I've learned from talking to the opposite sex. When a woman tells me what it's like to be a woman, I generally tend to believe her :3

But of course, I don't know everything, nobody does. And the nature vs nurture debate (not just in regard to gender/sex, but in a bigger philosophical sense) will likely continue forever. I think we all have to admit that there is some role played by both, but just how much of either is very ambiguous. I don't have much doubt that men and women are different though (my Mom has drilled the brain stuff into my brain too much lol), and I don't really entirely believe in tabula rasa (I believe a mix of unique nature and experience is a far more idealistic as well as practical ideal), but despite their differences I do feel that men and women are definitely the same in one place...

Spoiler

SPREAD THE LOVE YO

[Obscura]

Re: the KoF "womanly men" discussion, Andy may look masculine on the victory screen, but his in-game sprite is fairly feminine. Same with Billy.

[Hagane]

They don't look feminine to me. Ash, Benimaru and Duolon, on the other hand...

[Squire Grooktook]

The fact that he edited his post but didn't bother to change "all" into "some" or even "most" is what is hilarious though.

I also remember that I was gonna say that it's funny he defends his criticism of that article by saying it's a Japanese thing, when two of the reference points that article uses for diverse character designs are X-Men and Batman TAS.

I'm pretty sure that's just character design 101 that you want all your characters to be fairly distinguishable from eachother and have some personality that sets them apart from other works.

Also being very "visual" is kinda mandatory in a visual medium. I could see going for realistic average joe designs if you're writing a down to earth live-action drama, but if you're doing an escapist adventure thing with kung fu and monsters and aliens and shit then you'd probably best consider making it look nice.

Even Doom had a lot of variety and quirkiness. All the monsters had really diverse, semi-goofy designs, and the backstory and tone was hella tongue in cheek (OH NO THE BUNNY).