New-ish Schmup on the horizon.

[Van_Artic]

It only took 23 years to make!!!

Spoiler

[Despatche]

It's 2014 and we now have people trying to defend euroshmups, the subgenre, as anything more than a bunch of poor games that all somehow vaguely resemble R-Type. We are regressing, not progressing, so says the "old technology" buff.

Because people forget why things are bad, "euroshmup" isn't really a slight against Europeans, but a slight against the specific European Amiga developers who all tried to copy R-Type, starting with Katakis. Being such an important part of the upbringing of so many would-be European programmers, there is now an obscene level of nostalgia for this strange subgenre, and so the serpent eats its tail.

The best part is that a lot of euroshmups are better games than Musha Aleste. Maybe one day we'll all finally realize just how much of a crime Musha is against the genre and play some euroshmups instead.

[Kaiser]

It only took 23 years to make!!!

Spoiler

Spoiler

It took 23 years so it has to be amazing, it's so amazing I turned into an alcoholic! And I became absolutely drunk when I realised there are better euroshmups that nail the game balance way better like Tyrian!

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Look, it's not amazing but it shits all over Tyrian.

[BIL]

It's 2014

No it's current year!

[Plasmo]

This game is a disgrace to humanity. It symbolizes all things abominable to people with a basic understanding of aesthetics and fun.

The release date of this game will be written in our personal book of shmuphistory with letters of our own blood. May we keep this game as a lurid example of the most atrocious thing that could have ever happened to us peaceful shmup farmers.

All hail Yagawa!

[d0s]

The best part is that a lot of euroshmups are better games than Musha Aleste. Maybe one day we'll all finally realize just how much of a crime Musha is against the genre and play some euroshmups instead.

Where are all these people who absolutely love Musha though? I've never met anyone who thinks it has any value besides artistic/nostalgic. I love compile and it's nowhere near my favorite, in your brain it's like some weird epidemic destroying the shooter world when most people are indifferent towards it as they rightly should be

e: unless you mean the fuckboys paying stupid amounts of money for it but who cares, they don't even play games

[Despatche]

Musha is constantly competing with Thunder Force III or IV as the top Genesis shmup, and I've gotten nothing but opposition to the idea that, gasp, Musha is actually a really bad game. Anyone indifferent to it is indifferent to Genesis shmups as a whole.

[d0s]

Genesis people are just jealous all the good Compile shooters are on other systems. Even the fucking SNES got a better one lmao. So they hear all the chatter about Gunhed or Super Aleste and then see the tiny shriveled penis that is Musha and feel shame but proudly present it anyway because that's the nature of Genesis fanboys. Deep inside they know they have always been the losers of the 16-bit console wars*


*At least this is the answer I get when I ask my inner 10 year old why Genesis people like Musha so much, as a TG16 and SNES kid. I don't know why people really like Musha and don't care, it's a really stupid thing to worry about

[Despatche]

I worry about it because these people make up a majority of the forums and are why we have quotes like this:

You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

Playing shmups simply for aesthetic completely defeats the purpose of the game; you're not really "playing" it at all. When you play shmups for aesthetic, and you actively encourage people who do the same, you actively encourage the death of skill-based gaming. These people have directly caused the situation we have now.

I also worry about it because Musha is the absolute worst example of playing shmups for aesthetic that you will ever find. I can understand liking Super Aleste or something, even with broken scoring; I think Super Aleste is an alright game, and one of Compile's best. But Musha really truly is objectively bad and causes real problems by pushing it the way it's been pushed.

[d0s]

I worry about it because these people make up a majority of the forums and are why we have quotes like this:

You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.

Playing shmups simply for aesthetic completely defeats the purpose of the game; you're not really "playing" it at all. When you play shmups for aesthetic, and you actively encourage people who do the same, you actively encourage the death of skill-based gaming. These people have directly caused the situation we have now.

I also worry about it because Musha is the absolute worst example of playing shmups for aesthetic that you will ever find. I can understand liking Super Aleste or something, even with broken scoring; I think Super Aleste is an alright game, and one of Compile's best. But Musha really truly is objectively bad and causes real problems by pushing it the way it's been pushed.

Why not just "do you" and stop worrying about why other people like things? I like plenty of shitty games because I think they're pretty or have good music, so what? Not everyone has to be an autistic robot unaffected by art

[Eaglet]

Just to give some perspective, since this is supposed to be a community for skill based games after all;
Promoting Musha (even though i like it for nostalgia) as a great STG is like the FGC promoting Rise of the Robots as a great fighting game because of a love for pixelized CG.

I don't agree with forcing people to like certain things but the frustration is kind of understandable imo.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Not sure how these comments apply to the topic. 1993 doesn't have a lot of depth in terms of scoring or weapon choice but to imply that it doesn't require skill is asinine to say the least. The average schmuck on this forum might breeze through it in an afternoon but it's far from casual.

Also, some of the worst euros are notoriously difficult, almost unplayable - yet are still 1ccd. Why are we talking about skill?

[d0s]

Just to give some perspective, since this is supposed to be a community for skill based games after all;
Promoting Musha (even though i like it for nostalgia) as a great STG is like the FGC promoting Rise of the Robots as a great fighting game because of a love for pixelized CG.

I don't agree with forcing people to like certain things but the frustration is kind of understandable imo.

I've never seen anyone in the community promoting it as some amazing game, it' mostly journalists and really nostalgic people. That's why I'm wondering where Despatche gets this idea that it's some untouchable game here

e:

Not sure how these comments apply to the topic.

It applies in that even a bad Japanese STG is 100 times more interesting to discuss than a supposedly good Euro one

[BIL]

Genesis people are just jealous all the good Compile shooters are on other systems. Even the fucking SNES got a better one lmao. So they hear all the chatter about Gunhed or Super Aleste and then see the tiny shriveled penis that is Musha and feel shame but proudly present it anyway

It's true as well. And the god damn SEGA CD and GAME GEAR's Compile Shumps leave Musha in the dust too! BAAAHAHAHAHAAA

EAT SHIT YOU GENESIS CUCKS 凸(｀ω´メ)凸

edit ps

I BLAME TOAPLAN

THEY MUST'VE SECRETLY FUCKED WITH TEH ROM

[Despatche]

Funny you say that, as Dennin is infinitely better.

Rise is actually a pretty good comparison. Cool aesthetic, clearly a lot of effort was put into that... but there's no game. You can't even bother to hack the game and make it better, because noone would play it.

I used to like Musha too. Before I learned what a game really should be, and what a lot of people think a game should be. Then I also played Musha again, and realized that Musha is somehow in neither group.

[Van_Artic]

Spoiler

It took 23 years so it has to be amazing, it's so amazing I turned into an alcoholic! And I became absolutely drunk when I realised there are better euroshmups that nail the game balance way better like Tyrian!

Spoiler

Spoiler

I don't even know what Tyrian is!!!

[Harpuia]

What should a game really be, then? Why care so much about what other people like? I enjoy MUSHA and most other compile games because sometimes I just like to relax with an easy shmup that I don't have to put much thought into.

[BIL]

There are currently nine other Compile STGs in my library I'd rank well above Musha (Guardic Gaiden, Gun Nac, Gunhed, Spriggan, Super Aleste, Dennin Aleste and ZXZ's Zanac/Special/Neo). Then broadly similar stuff I'd likewise sooner choose if forced (Super Star Soldier, Soldier Blade, Override). It does beat Verytex, though the granny handbag bunfight of Musha v Verytex is still a fairly close thing. Sha-weeet neoclassical metal and robo samurai just about beat pumpin YM2612 techno and generic space shooting. There's also at least two dozen unrelated MD shooters much better than Musha, obviously. It's not especially good within or without its field.

Yet all these years, it still torments me from its shelf. Darling ERINOR's thumbs up as much a hand pilfering my wallet, or a middle finger extended in my bloodied face. Sometimes it seems to phase between its real state and a tidy stack of bills/small selection of better shooters - like in cartoons when someone is starving, and sees their best friend's face as a tasty burger. Unlike the cartoons though, I never quite bring myself to jam both thumbs up to the knuckles in a shrieking face, or rather list Musha for sale in the Trade forum. Sometimes I pop it in the MD and catch P chips to the metal choons. 3:

Pondering yet further, I'd probably give it the heave-ho if it were fundamentally offensive in some way, as opposed to being pretty and vacant. Pretty vacant things have their uses too, and I'll indulge the exceptionally prettiest if they don't wee on my rug like Dahna with its fucked controls. edit: actually, scratch that equivalence - if it were busted I'd never have picked it up. Musha reveals itself from the outset. Dahna wins over the charitable with four increasingly fun gimmick stages, then attempts Real Sidescrolling Action and abruptly disintegrates in your gullible hands. Nasty trick that. 3:

What an existential quandary! Musha, the decadent's choice.

Funny you say that, as Dennin is infinitely better.

No jokes in that post, compadre. By this time tomorrow, the entire forum will have descended into unbridled NTSCU 16-bit race warfare + general shooter preference bunfights. The first time around, most of these young noobs were shitting in diapers. Now, with modern telecommunications enabling ideological warfare unhindered by borders, oceans or time zones... they're gonna be shitting their pants. ¬(｀ω´メ)凸

[FunktionJCB]

The upcoming Humble Monthly bundle, which you can still order for the next 32 hours or so, will have an exclusive game that is sort of a bullet-hell title where you don't appear to do much shooting, if at all.

It's called Tailwind: Prologue, and it looks... peculiar.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-uG5HztI3U

[Kaiser]

Time for a serious on-topic post from me, i'll be brutally honest, I won't talk about the scoring aspect of these euroshmups because that's a different matter.

If those euroshmup devs actually cared about balance, actually cared about things like player feedback (not just the players but overall making your player ship's fire be punchy and effective), we would'nt be here complaining that they are being euroshmups, because THEY all make the same mistakes, every goddamn time, not listening to their players, not listening to their testers, pretending they can be outlaws and avoid getting shit for bad game design.

Sine Mora was the perfect example when Reiker (one of the devs) wanted feedback quite a while before release, we gave him feedback and none of it was put into the game, which was a sick joke for every shmup fan who bought the game and he obviously like a coward dissapeared short after (after getting his paycheck as a fake PR person), don't support that bullshit. This game seems to follow a similiar case according to what emphatic said.

Shmups don't work this way, what's the fun of a shmup if you cannot blow up something because it takes a million hits to blow up and you pray that you are powered up while doing it too. Nobody minds the art styles, nobody minds the music in euroshmups, it's the DAMN unbalanced gameplay and it's often a case where the game doesn't even offer enough content to make up for it's negatives.

So in short here's what I hate about euroshmups and I avoid myself as a developer:
- Bullet sponge enemies and bosses
- Terrible enemy/hitbox detection
- Terrible feedback (so the player doesn't even know if he's hitting anything)
- Forced gimmicks that the game isn't even designed around to begin with
- Riding on the nostalgia of everyone who owned a C64/Amiga/early Windows computers or even 16-bit consoles instead of actually offering a decent retro-style offering that doesn't need to ride on the nostalgia to be legit (if that's what they are going for)
- Lazy level design
- Complete lack of thought put into enemy patterns and movement (LOL WE SHOOTING THE BULLETS JUST BECAUSE)

THOSE I would call 7 deadly sins of shmup design, if you do any of those, you should feel bad and don't go on raging if your game sells barely and flops. This is my final post on this matter, i'm out.

[eebrozgi]

Sine Mora was the perfect example when Reiker (one of the devs) wanted feedback quite a while before release, we gave him feedback and none of it was put into the game, which was a sick joke for every shmup fan who bought the game and he obviously like a coward dissapeared short after (after getting his paycheck as a fake PR person), don't support that bullshit. This game seems to follow a similiar case according to what emphatic said.

But how much can you change a game if a big selling point is that it was dug from an untouched 1993 time capsule?

[Kaiser]

Sine Mora was the perfect example when Reiker (one of the devs) wanted feedback quite a while before release, we gave him feedback and none of it was put into the game, which was a sick joke for every shmup fan who bought the game and he obviously like a coward dissapeared short after (after getting his paycheck as a fake PR person), don't support that bullshit. This game seems to follow a similiar case according to what emphatic said.

But how much can you change a game if a big selling point is that it was dug from an untouched 1993 time capsule?

That doesn't excuse the lack of making it fun, balanced and playable. Except for the extreme case where they are unable to even modify it.

[BIL]

Generally speaking (I've no interest in this particular game), this is why nostalgia objectively blows a bag of dicks.

If something doesn't work, it's poorly made. It's not to be pardoned as "retro," but studied as a mistake to avoid. This goes for contemporary game design, too. Writing off shitty design as "retro" or "modern" contributes nothing.

[Obiwanshinobi]

A lot of good designers are only moderately good players (Ikeda himself mentioned that looping Truxton was his best achievement, and M-Kai said his best feats were mostly just average clears and 1cc's, not particularly high scores). Of course, it's hard to tell what Ikeda meant by "not actually halfway decent players". Does that equate to "could not 2-all with a really good score", or "could not beat the first stage on one credit"?

Further off-topic, the other day I read Yu Suzuki claim:

I usually don't play video games. For example, with driving games - I've got much more interest in real cars. That's the reason I went for that style.

"As a student I was looking for a good company, and looking at which company has a good future - and the software companies, that looked good. Games, they don't matter so much to me.

Says nothing of his gaming skills of course, but wouldn't we all rather think of those who designed something we like as avid gamers themselves?

[BIL]

Interesting Suzuki quote. Makes sense, really - OutRun's greatness is in conveying a passion for driving through its arcade medium. I always liked his clarification that it wasn't meant as a racing game, but a driving one. Suzuki coulda used some better playtesters though, with the OutRun gear-gacha trick and F355 Challenge's snaking.

Passion and work ethic are the critical things for a creator in any field, I think. Though technical and planning abilities matter too, of course, especially in large projects. If a creator abjectly can't provide those, I'd hope they've support from those who can (and the sense to accept it).

Although even then, fervent artistes who ignore their limitations might still produce something engaging, if not accomplished. Or even of truly legendary badness ala Miami Connection, The Room and Sonichu! The world would be unhappier a place without such cataclysmic overreachings, for sure.