HD retrovision - Did anyone join the kickstarter?

[Guspaz]

And this is the thing that I find deplorable about the HD Retrovision marketing; it can come across as "these screenshots are what you will get on your HDTV" to some average Joe's who don't know anything about scaling and resolution (whom are their target audience).

I don't see why it wouldn't, depending on the TV. My home cinema projector doesn't look all that different from what a Framemeister puts out, with square relatively sharp pixels, excepting that my projector doesn't completely support 240p and sometimes tries to deinterlace the image when in motion. That may be luck of the draw, though.

[Koop]

Geez just let them make their damn cable lol

Not like I'm gonna buy it. No need. I'm sure the same applies to many people here.

[Ed Oscuro]

The chips suggest to me what I always heard - they're building a circuit around an off-the-shelf chip. You didn't expect a Kickstarter that raised some few thousand dollars would be building new silicon, did you? I don't mean to belittle the amount of work this could require (any PCB design is involved) or how useful it may be, but I think it's hyperbole to call this "exhaustively" tested. The exhaustive testing was done by the engineers of the original chip to make sure it would work in a variety of products. The datasheet or other reference literature may also have specified a reference design with the support chips seen here, too, if not a complete circuit more or less identical to what's seen here.

I'm guessing, but to me the Kickstarter budget suggests a design of a small PCB and a small production run.

Geez just let them make their damn cable lol

Nobody here is going to stop them from that, or even wants to. But retrogaming video is difficult enough a topic without disinformation flying around.

[FinalBaton]

That may be luck of the draw, though.

It most certainly is.

Only a minority of HDTVs give a decent picture with an RGB 240p source, even the best of those don't even come close to being as sharp as their screencaptures.
The majority of HDTVs will give a picture that is a lot more flawed than that

Most HDTVs will misinterpret 240p as 480i and mangle the picture.
Plus, those that do recognize 240p won't necessarily do a good job of upscaling it.

[ShinJohnpv]

You have some weird vendetta man. They aren't talking to the people running rgb cables and framemeisters. They're talking to the folks who have never connected a game system with anything but composite. Which is who they're making to. You're aggressive, and overly angry reaction to it is kind of sad and pathetic. It's almost like you're pissed off that others might enjoy retro games with a good video signal without spending a shit ton on other equipment. They're not wrong, composite video is terrible, and good quality cables that aren't ruining your video signal make a huge difference. Have you never seen marketing videos before? Do you not watch tv or go to the movies?

There's nothing bold or crazy in their claims, but you're reaction is clearly hostile, juvenile and really sad.

All your posts directed towards me have been attacking me and lies. Please grow up. If you find you can't then don't reply.

Nope no lies in my posts. Show me the lies. For the record you're the one who came out swinging buddy. If you can't handle people calling you out on your BS then don't do it.

[Edward_Tz]

Nope no lies in my posts. Show me the lies. For the record you're the one who came out swinging buddy. If you can't handle people calling you out on your BS then don't do it.

See your first post.

[Einzelherz]

Geez just let them make their damn cable lol

Not like I'm gonna buy it. No need. I'm sure the same applies to many people here.

But if we did that, how would we get to be angry on the internet?

[ApolloBoy]

You have some weird vendetta man. They aren't talking to the people running rgb cables and framemeisters. They're talking to the folks who have never connected a game system with anything but composite. Which is who they're making to. You're aggressive, and overly angry reaction to it is kind of sad and pathetic. It's almost like you're pissed off that others might enjoy retro games with a good video signal without spending a shit ton on other equipment. They're not wrong, composite video is terrible, and good quality cables that aren't ruining your video signal make a huge difference. Have you never seen marketing videos before? Do you not watch tv or go to the movies?

There's nothing bold or crazy in their claims, but you're reaction is clearly hostile, juvenile and really sad.

All your posts directed towards me have been attacking me and lies. Please grow up. If you find you can't then don't reply.

Nope no lies in my posts. Show me the lies. For the record you're the one who came out swinging buddy. If you can't handle people calling you out on your BS then don't do it.

The romantic tension in here is getting uncomfortable...

[ShinJohnpv]

Nope no lies in my posts. Show me the lies. For the record you're the one who came out swinging buddy. If you can't handle people calling you out on your BS then don't do it.

See your first post.

No lies in my first post.

[FinalBaton]

The romantic tension in here is getting uncomfortable...

lol

[Blair]

That may be luck of the draw, though.

It most certainly is.

Only a minority of HDTVs give a decent picture with an RGB 240p source, even the best of those don't even come close to being as sharp as their screencaptures.
The majority of HDTVs will give a picture that is a lot more flawed than that

Most HDTVs will misinterpret 240p as 480i and mangle the picture.
Plus, those that do recognize 240p won't necessarily do a good job of upscaling it.

I agree on this. even with an LCD/HD tv that registers 240p correctly, it still looks damn awful most of the time. i'm also not sure why designing an RGB to YPbPr circuit has been taking them so long. those have existed for years, its just that most of them have not supported 240p/480i properly.

I guess the challenge is building a chip that can do the conversion and be powered by the a/v port of a console (and also small enough to fit inside the cable end) but it seems to me that they would have been better off just licensing an already existing design and implementing 240p/480i support, even if it had to be slightly clunkier in looks and externally powered. it would have been a much faster process then what they have done so far.

but even then that still wouldn't have alleviated the scaling concerns we have now. they mentioned an idea they had for a digitizer (the hdmi-zer) but who knows what that means to them besides a basic component to HDMI converter, something that also already exists (with the usual flaw of not properly supporting 240p/480i) but would likely not be as robust as Markus's recent FPGA solution.

I was personally holding out for the HD retrovision cables because it would have saved me money on RGB Scart cables and would have integrated easier into my A/V setup. but I recently upgraded all my systems to RGB, just couldn't wait any longer.

[JBC]

Thank you, Guspaz.

I've been following this story closely for months & can't wait get a set of cables.

...

There sure are a lot of toxic personalities on this forum.

[Galgomite]

I'm backing this project. I sometimes game on a CRT and this sounds more convenient than a powered scart converter. Updates from these guys have been frequent and honest, and I no longer expect Kickstarters to go as planned, so there's been no disappointment over delays.
I'm seeing a lot of people complain about how these cables will REALLY look on an HDTV. For those of us who know how much better games can look given infinite time and expense, that's fine. But back when I started getting into this stuff I was reading Amazon reviews of scart converters. People were elated to have a clearer signal going to their HDTVs, even if it wasn't perfect. There's room in the world for $40 "improvement" products on the way to $300 "perfection" products.

[Blair]

I'm backing this project. I sometimes game on a CRT

I also play on lots of different sets (CRT, LCD) so my main concern was using them with my PVM, but its also nice to play on a bigger screen. plus RGB scart to BNC is kind of a hassle, and decent component switchers are easy to find compared to good scart or bnc switchers.

I'm also curious how they might work with upscalers like the DVDO's, FrameMister or even Markus's device.

[leonk]

I'm also curious how they might work with upscalers like the DVDO's, FrameMister or even Markus's device.

If you already have a scalar that accepts RGB like the FrameMister (XRGB Mini) why bother with this cable? console -> RGB -> component -> XRGB seems like an extra generation vs console -> RGB -> XRGB.

[BuckoA51]

and decent component switchers are easy to find compared to good scart or bnc switchers.

SCART maybe, but good quality BNC switches show up on Ebay all the time.

[Galgomite]

I'm also curious how they might work with upscalers like the DVDO's, FrameMister or even Markus's device.

If you already have a scalar that accepts RGB like the FrameMister (XRGB Mini) why bother with this cable? console -> RGB -> component -> XRGB seems like an extra generation vs console -> RGB -> XRGB.

I didn't actually write that but to me, component is extremely elegant compared to SCART, once you find out all the hidden inconsistencies and choices (composite sync? sync stripper? sync booster?) between SCART cables. I've ruined at least one scart cable and at least one CONSOLE due to my ignorance of scart's little intricacies.
Given my setup it may sound easier to route the final scart cable to my TV but in practice it's a mess to do that.

[leonk]

SCART is just a port standard. CSYNC, composite video sync, sync stripper, sync on luma, etc has nothing to do with SCART. All these just describe the source of sync signal on pin 19 of the SCART connector.

[BuckoA51]

Not sure how you can ruin a console, but have heard of folks breaking their TVs by connecting e.g a CSYNC Saturn cable to a PAL console and feeding 12 volts or whatever it is direct to the csync/composite video pin.

But really, it's not rocket science.

[darcagn]

SCART is just a port standard. CSYNC, composite video sync, sync stripper, sync on luma, etc has nothing to do with SCART. All these just describe the source of sync signal on pin 19 of the SCART connector.

SCART is a standard specified by CENELEC. SCART cables can have different configurations, but pin 19, when present, is always supposed to be composite video.

[Galgomite]

Not sure how you can ruin a console, but have heard of folks breaking their TVs by connecting e.g a CSYNC Saturn cable to a PAL console and feeding 12 volts or whatever it is direct to the csync/composite video pin.

But really, it's not rocket science.

It's not rocket science but's definitely been frustrating and expensive for me. These forums are full of people troubleshooting why a signal from one console isn't as bright as from another, why don't they install a different capacitor in their cable, what's that hum, why are most switches worthless, etc. I had a setup contaminated by a bad XRGB Mini euro scart cable. And for a while, everything was perfect. It took months for things to go bad, but in the end my CDX output got dimmer and dimmer until it was practically invisible. This was permanent damage. Meanwhile, my RGB modded Duo-R stopped displaying red, my SNES signal was noisy as heck and a consolized MVS displayed an error over rgb (though component output thankfully still works). I was at a loss. I swapped the Duo's cable, but the problem returned after a while. Only after swapping the Mini's "bad" scart adapter (and buying yet another Duo cable) were the issues resolved. So yeah, for all its good points, I can see some room for improvement with scart:)

[neorichieb1971]

Not sure how you can ruin a console, but have heard of folks breaking their TVs by connecting e.g a CSYNC Saturn cable to a PAL console and feeding 12 volts or whatever it is direct to the csync/composite video pin.

But really, it's not rocket science.

It's not rocket science but's definitely been frustrating and expensive for me. These forums are full of people troubleshooting why a signal from one console isn't as bright as from another, why don't they install a different capacitor in their cable, what's that hum, why are most switches worthless, etc. I had a setup contaminated by a bad XRGB Mini euro scart cable. And for a while, everything was perfect. It took months for things to go bad, but in the end my CDX output got dimmer and dimmer until it was practically invisible. This was permanent damage. Meanwhile, my RGB modded Duo-R stopped displaying red, my SNES signal was noisy as heck and a consolized MVS displayed an error over rgb (though component output thankfully still works). I was at a loss. I swapped the Duo's cable, but the problem returned after a while. Only after swapping the Mini's "bad" scart adapter (and buying yet another Duo cable) were the issues resolved. So yeah, for all its good points, I can see some room for improvement with scart:)

I've had similar issues. I've bought TV's where the geometry is crap, where the image doesn't go all the way to the right.. Then its go into these settings and those settings and then even more settings. Meanwhile, your supposed to be PLAYING FREAKING GAMES. Not screwing around trying to get pixels to look a certain way. Its a load of Bollox. I've got an XRGB2 that doesn't work properly, a VGA component transcoder sitting around doing nothing, a 14" Sony RGB TV thats in storage.. And none of them give me what I'm looking for. If I can find a 80% best solution and get to play some games on my consoles I will be happy.. Should have stuck with emulation. So much less hassle than all this.

[BuckoA51]

I had a setup contaminated by a bad XRGB Mini euro scart cable. And for a while, everything was perfect. It took months for things to go bad, but in the end my CDX output got dimmer and dimmer until it was practically invisible. This was permanent damage.

There's no way a SCART to XRGB Mini adapter cable can damage your consoles. Sounds more like the capacitors in your CDX RGB cable died.

Plus, you realise this is antique hardware and outputs RGB natively? Component cables aren't magically going to make problems disappear. Especially with the Mini which has relatively poor component input compared to RGB.

Should have stuck with emulation. So much less hassle than all this.

Emulation has a lot of issues/caveats too as has been discussed ad-nauseam here and other places on the net.

[Galgomite]

"There's no way a SCART to XRGB Mini adapter cable can damage your consoles." OK, but the damage occurred, and considering there are scart switches that erroneously power on multiple consoles through that connection, damage via SCART seems at least possible to me. And yeah, these are antiques, but I can't chalk up a mint of damages in a year or two as a coincidence.
"Sounds more like the capacitors in your CDX RGB cable died." Fair suggestion but not what happened in my CDX's case, as confirmed by other cables including composite. That WAS what happened with my Duo-R and Sega Genesis (replacing my CDX). Expensive enough problem on its own, honestly.

I feel childish complaining so much about this stuff so I'm going to drop it. I love the picture quality I'm getting currently but feel burned by my bad, expensive experiences with SCART. Not having grown up with the cable, it comes across as fragile and inconsistent, and if I can choose component over SCART, I will do so.

[BuckoA51]

considering there are scart switches that erroneously power on multiple consoles through that connection, damage via SCART seems at least possible to me.

Yeah but there's no voltage carried by the SCART to Minidin converter, it only uses RGB, sync and audio. Unless someone wired it to deliberately sabotage your consoles (even then I fail to see how that's possible).

If it's not the capacitors in the SCART cable dying it's probably the caps in the console itself, nothing to do with the SCART cables.

[JBC]

I got the SNES & Genesis cables awhile ago. They are really great & surpassed my expectations.





I should be getting an RGB mod N64 from RetroFixes back in the mail over the next week. I plan to use my extra SNES cable for it. I'll post some pics when I can.

[Ikaruga11]

How do the SNES Component cables compare to the regular RGB Cables in terms of picture quality? Does the Mini produce a better Component picture like it does with RGB?

[JBC]

These actually look better to me than the components I have running from my Wii. The Wii is soft modded so I can run SNES9xGx from it. When comparing the same games by syncing them up & hitting the button on my switch box, the SNES signal looks a bit more crisp. Wether this is due to the Wii, emulator, or Wii components is anybody's guess but I have the same opinion of the Genesis cable.

Also, I don't believe the SNES mini can output RGB without a mod. If you're using a mini & plan on getting these you may want to swap it out for an original model.

[Guspaz]

I couldn't tell any difference in quality between my SNES or PAL GameCube with RGB SCART vs HD Retrovision component. They look the same to me.

I did get a pleasant surprise, though: my projector treats 240p component as progressive, and measures half the lag (2 frames) versus 240p over composite/s-video (4 frames).

[Einzelherz]

Woo! Philips bros!