HD retrovision - Did anyone join the kickstarter?

[ShinJohnpv]

Their videos are misleading. They show these cables on modern TVs and talk them up as something like a $35 Framemeister.

This is complete and total FUD. These guys have been pretty honest and open about this NOT being something like a $35 Framemeister. Hell any time I've seen them talk about this they're pretty specific about it not being a framemeister, not upscaling the image, and that you need to check if your tv can handle 240p over component. These guys aren't trying to scam or rip any off and have been pretty explicit and open about what their product does. The fact that people keep trying to make it seem the other way is disappointing of the retro gaming community.

[Edward_Tz]

Their videos are misleading. They show these cables on modern TVs and talk them up as something like a $35 Framemeister.

This is complete and total FUD. These guys have been pretty honest and open about this NOT being something like a $35 Framemeister. Hell any time I've seen them talk about this they're pretty specific about it not being a framemeister, not upscaling the image, and that you need to check if your tv can handle 240p over component. These guys aren't trying to scam or rip any off and have been pretty explicit and open about what their product does. The fact that people keep trying to make it seem the other way is disappointing of the retro gaming community.

I haven't seen a single picture of this thing from them connected to a CRT TV. Seen CRTs in the background.

I don't know these people. Don't care either. I just call BS when I see it.

"Our SNES Component Cable is a gift from us to your eyeballs. In the past, you would be stuck playing Mega Man X and Starfox with cables that resulted in color striping, color bleeding and frame jitter. Those problems are a thing of the past when you start playing your Super Nintendo with an HD Retrovision cable. Check out the video and screenshots below to see the Super Nintendo experience that you've been missing all of these years."

Oh man I better buy these cables becouse I'm "stuck in the past" with these horrible cables. Clearly I need to buy these cables. I'm stuck with garbage otherwise.

Here have another.

"Our Genesis Component Cable will make every game from Altered Beast to Zero Wing look like you've never seen it before. A standard composite Sega Genesis cable results in blurry text, color smearing, and the loss of some of the original detail. But the component cables provide a white balanced image that is crisp and clear. You've never seen your games the way they were meant to be seen until you see them with an HD Retrovision cable. Check out the video and screenshots below to see just how much better of a gaming experience you can have when you try one of our cables."

I better buy this garbage up. I want to see these games "the way they were meant to be seen".


Their whole site and all their videos are like this. I may come off as hostile but when your marketing is just making bold and crazy claims like that... Ya you can just fuck off.

[mikejmoffitt]

If you're using composite cables, especially for the Genesis, then I 100% agree with them that you're doing yourself a huge favor by getting a set of no-effort component cables. It'll improve the image on both a good CRT and on an HDTV which supports the format. If you'd prefer composite video on your Genesis to see the stupid rainbow translucent waterfall in Sonic, then that's up to you, but for everyone who wants to see a high quality image then they are providing a great option without any bullshit.

[bobrocks95]

Their whole site and all their videos are like this. I may come off as hostile but when your marketing is just making bold and crazy claims like that... Ya you can just fuck off.

I didn't know it was bold and crazy to claim that RGB looks better than composite. Learn something new every day I guess.

[Edward_Tz]

If you're using composite cables, especially for the Genesis, then I 100% agree with them that you're doing yourself a huge favor by getting a set of no-effort component cables. It'll improve the image on both a good CRT and on an HDTV which supports the format. If you'd prefer composite video on your Genesis to see the stupid rainbow translucent waterfall in Sonic, then that's up to you, but for everyone who wants to see a high quality image then they are providing a great option without any bullshit.

How exactly is this high quality? I would love to see that HDTV you have that upscales this stuff to "high quality". Can you give me the model number? I'll buy it right now no joke. As long as it's under $2000.

Their whole site and all their videos are like this. I may come off as hostile but when your marketing is just making bold and crazy claims like that... Ya you can just fuck off.

I didn't know it was bold and crazy to claim that RGB looks better than composite. Learn something new every day I guess.

These aren't RGB cables. Should try reading. Or are you suggesting these are?



These guys are saying their cables are the best option out there. "In the past, you would be stuck playing Mega Man X and Starfox with cables that resulted in color striping, color bleeding and frame jitter."


You guys have to be shills of some sort to not see that as blatant misleading.

[bobrocks95]

These aren't RGB cables. Should try reading. Or are you suggesting these are?

You're a real piece of work. Should try thinking. RGB is coming out of the console, so yes, they're RGB cables with a transcoder inside. And I hate to break it to you, but YPbPr is functionally equivalent to RGB when properly transcoded. End of story.

These guys are saying their cables are the best option out there. "In the past, you would be stuck playing Mega Man X and Starfox with cables that resulted in color striping, color bleeding and frame jitter."


You guys have to be shills of some sort to not see that as blatant misleading.

Nothing you wrote directly indicates that they think their cables are the single best option out there. Especially not the pull-quote you went with.
They are comparing them to composite cables that came standard with the consoles, and they will assuredly look better than that.

[Edward_Tz]

You're a real piece of work. Should try thinking. RGB is coming out of the console, so yes, they're RGB cables with a transcoder inside.

The cable is outputting component.

And I hate to break it to you, but YPbPr is functionally equivalent to RGB when properly transcoded. End of story.

Functionally it really isn't. Which why you have entire forums talking about RGB and not Component. Kinda like this place.

Nothing you wrote directly indicates that they think their cables are the single best option out there. Especially not the pull-quote you went with.
They are comparing them to composite cables that came standard with the consoles, and they will assuredly look better than that.

I didn't write anything. I quoted directly from their site. Don't make this out like I'm trying to put words in their mouth.
That quote is from their first paragraph on the page about the SNES cable. The word "composite" shows up on that page exactly one time. And it's the title of the video embed on that page.

[bobrocks95]

Functionally it really isn't. Which why you have entire forums talking about RGB and not Component. Kinda like this place.

Show me proof of quality difference between YPbPr and RGB and I'll believe you.

Nothing you wrote directly indicates that they think their cables are the single best option out there. Especially not the pull-quote you went with.
They are comparing them to composite cables that came standard with the consoles, and they will assuredly look better than that.

I didn't write anything. I quoted directly from their site. Don't make this out like I'm trying to put words in their mouth.
That quote is from their first paragraph on the page about the SNES cable. The word "composite" shows up on that page exactly one time. And it's the title of the video embed on that page.

I meant to write "quoted" instead of "wrote". They still don't say anywhere that their cables are the best option available.

[Edward_Tz]

Show me proof of quality difference between YPbPr and RGB and I'll believe you.

That's an entirely different argument then to what you stated before about functionality. Also very subjective.

I meant to write "quoted" instead of "wrote". They still don't say anywhere that their cables are the best option available.

I'll quote it again then.
Again from the SNES page
"In the past, you would be stuck playing Mega Man X and Starfox with cables that resulted in color striping, color bleeding and frame jitter. Those problems are a thing of the past when you start playing your Super Nintendo with an HD Retrovision cable."
Again from the Genesis page
"You've never seen your games the way they were meant to be seen until you see them with an HD Retrovision cable."

In their FAQ
Under "How is this any different than using an RGB SCART cable and a SCART to YPbPr adapter?"
The last line states
"Think of our cables not only as simple plug-and-play conversion devices, but also as "signal conditioners" to achieve the best possible output from your consoles"

[telemetry]

I'm not saying anyone is lying, but it is undoubtedly true that the Kickstarter says nearly nothing about CRTs. I presumed the whole point of the campaign was enabling people use to retro consoles on (compatible) HDTVs.

[blizzz]

I had a bit of contact with the guys from HD Retrovision last year and they seemed genuinely interested in building a good quality cable. One thing I learned during the conversation was that my TV actually shows a better picture with 240p YPbPr input than with 240p RGB input. I'd go so far as to say that the YPbPr version was "passable", while I couldn't recommend the RGB version because of screen tearing and chroma subsampling artifacts. YPbPr cables are certainly useful to a more casual target group, both on CRTs and LCDs, as long as the LCD can handle 240p input.

[Ed Oscuro]

Looking at their site, I see that they remember the concerns people in this forum shared about their misleading advertising, but writing like this hardly helps:

Our component cables clarify the original Standard-Definition video signals provided by the consoles. This enhancement is not a result of a High-Definition output.

There is no "clarifying" and there is no "enhancement."

[Guspaz]

I'd argue that component video is a heck of a lot more clear than composite, but I'd agree there's no active enhancement going on.

Their choice in company name was unfortunate, but it seems as though they genuinely didn't think there'd be a problem, and were founding what they hope will be a company that produces a variety of professional-quality retro gaming products, not just one product (the SNES/GEN component cables).

They never targeted their cables at CRT owners: this was strictly targeted at people connecting a SNES/GEN to an HDTV via composite video, so that they could get better image quality. They do mention that some of their testers tried it out on their CRTs, and that it worked great on them, but that was obviously not their focus.

[mikejmoffitt]

The premise of the cable is to have something affordable that raises the quality above shitty composite. That way, you have something you can recommend to a friend to, for the most part, just buy and plug in for an immediate improvement. As far as off the shelf affordable products go, the only other comparable thing I can think of is an S-video cable, which helps one hell of a lot less on an HDTV.

There is clarification in the image, as composite does not have the color bandwidth to accurately display the picture from anything higher resolution than the Atari 2600 (you get roughly 160 full periods of the subcarrier, accurately). S-video helps by improving the luminosity bandwidth, restoring luma details, but component and RGB bring the bandwidth high enough to convey the source generated image without loss, when transcoded properly. If calling this an enhancement rustles your jimbos, then I'm sorry, but that's a personal problem. It is unarguably an improvement over the original composite image.

What I do not understand is the outrage being expressed here. Their product offers a very clear advantage over the composite image the vast majority of the public might otherwise be using. They're obviously not targeting this towards people "in the know", who have RGB setups, dedicated scalers, etc. and for people outside of that group, everything they are saying is more or less true. The average user is stuck with composite cables and doesn't even know why their image looks like shit on their shiny new TV.

[Edward_Tz]

What I do not understand is the outrage being expressed here.

Shitty marketing that's misleading. No outrage. I think it's funny, personally.

[darcagn]

Shitty marketing that's misleading. No outrage. I think it's funny, personally.

You sound pretty upset to me. But maybe you're just being intentionally obtuse?

[Edward_Tz]

Shitty marketing that's misleading. No outrage. I think it's funny, personally.

You sound pretty upset to me. But maybe you're just being intentionally obtuse?

What's obtuse about it?

I just gave my opinion on it. A few fools hopped on me saying I was making stuff up and attacking me. I post direct quotes and they still want to defend the company. That's funny to me. That's definitely the opposite of being obtuse.

The companies name is HD Retrovision for crying out loud lol.

[leonk]

It seems these days EVERYTHING is HD! I just saw a commercial for laser eye surgery where they were promoting "High Definition vision".

People that understand the resolution of the human eye probably cringe every time they see that commercial.

[neorichieb1971]

The cables are being marketed to a lesser educated grade of people. People that like buzz words.

And for the umpteenth time, the HDMizer will upscale the signal if they get round to making it.

[leonk]

And for the umpteenth time, the HDMizer will upscale the signal if they get round to making it.

To what? Did they say? 480p or 1080p? or selectable?

I'm all for competition. Gamers and retro collectors win at the end. But from a purist perspective (and lets face it, many of us here are. Joe six-pack is probably not on shumps!) I don't want another "me too". I want something better.

For example: First we were killing PC10 for RGB PPU, then Tim W. came out with the NESRGB, and lastly Kevtris invented the Hi Def NES. Could you imagine if all Tim and Kevin did was just a better PCB to integrate the PC10 PPU into an NES without upping the game??

I think this might be the sticking point with a lot of purist here. They look at this cable, and think it's being marketed to them as "better than RGB" or "better than XRGB mini". This ends coming across as just another "me too" (when in reality, for purists, is of lesser quality)

As for the comment of component video is as good RGB. That is not correct. I have a professionally calibrated 20" Sony PVM which I use to test console mods for customers. I can easily tell the difference between component and RGB input into this CRT. Component has a faint shimmer to it, RGB doesn't. The colors also don't "pop" as much on component. (Maybe the shimmer is noise?)

Consoles also do a poor job of generating component video: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html

"... Unfortunately the PS2's component signal is not 100% as good as its RGB signal. You get a little bit more of noise. .."

[Guspaz]

The quality of component generation of consoles isn't really relevant to the quality of component generation on HDR's cables. For that, we'll need to wait and see.

The HDMIzer seems to be intended to be a more user-friendly and general-purpose competitor to the OSSC. I'm not sure it's really targeted at purists: They plan to output 480p/576p, and they intend to have RF/composite/s-video in addition to the component inputs. The idea is, the OSSC is a great option, but doesn't do anything for older consoles that haven't been RGB-modded, so while upscaling RF or composite or s-video isn't ideal, it's better than not being able to do anything at all. Of note is that they don't even list RGB as a supported input, but perhaps they'll accept it over the component RCA jacks. The OSSC also doesn't output upscaled analog, while the HDMIzer is planned to support 480p RGB and component output on top of HDMI.

That's a lot of ADCs, so I'd imagine this would end up costing a fair bit more than the OSSC, probably priced somewhere between the OSSC and Framemeister.

So all that is all well and good, but the more exciting thing is the signal processing they've been experimenting with. They've been profiling the differences between the 1CHIP and older SNES, and intend to produce filters specifically targeted to each revision of the SNES to produce a more 1CHIP-like image...

[ShinJohnpv]

Their videos are misleading. They show these cables on modern TVs and talk them up as something like a $35 Framemeister.

This is complete and total FUD. These guys have been pretty honest and open about this NOT being something like a $35 Framemeister. Hell any time I've seen them talk about this they're pretty specific about it not being a framemeister, not upscaling the image, and that you need to check if your tv can handle 240p over component. These guys aren't trying to scam or rip any off and have been pretty explicit and open about what their product does. The fact that people keep trying to make it seem the other way is disappointing of the retro gaming community.

I haven't seen a single picture of this thing from them connected to a CRT TV. Seen CRTs in the background.

I don't know these people. Don't care either. I just call BS when I see it.

"Our SNES Component Cable is a gift from us to your eyeballs. In the past, you would be stuck playing Mega Man X and Starfox with cables that resulted in color striping, color bleeding and frame jitter. Those problems are a thing of the past when you start playing your Super Nintendo with an HD Retrovision cable. Check out the video and screenshots below to see the Super Nintendo experience that you've been missing all of these years."

Oh man I better buy these cables becouse I'm "stuck in the past" with these horrible cables. Clearly I need to buy these cables. I'm stuck with garbage otherwise.

Here have another.

"Our Genesis Component Cable will make every game from Altered Beast to Zero Wing look like you've never seen it before. A standard composite Sega Genesis cable results in blurry text, color smearing, and the loss of some of the original detail. But the component cables provide a white balanced image that is crisp and clear. You've never seen your games the way they were meant to be seen until you see them with an HD Retrovision cable. Check out the video and screenshots below to see just how much better of a gaming experience you can have when you try one of our cables."

I better buy this garbage up. I want to see these games "the way they were meant to be seen".


Their whole site and all their videos are like this. I may come off as hostile but when your marketing is just making bold and crazy claims like that... Ya you can just fuck off.

You have some weird vendetta man. They aren't talking to the people running rgb cables and framemeisters. They're talking to the folks who have never connected a game system with anything but composite. Which is who they're making to. You're aggressive, and overly angry reaction to it is kind of sad and pathetic. It's almost like you're pissed off that others might enjoy retro games with a good video signal without spending a shit ton on other equipment. They're not wrong, composite video is terrible, and good quality cables that aren't ruining your video signal make a huge difference. Have you never seen marketing videos before? Do you not watch tv or go to the movies?

There's nothing bold or crazy in their claims, but you're reaction is clearly hostile, juvenile and really sad.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'd argue that component video is a heck of a lot more clear than composite,

Sure, but they're not "clarifying" anything. They're just transcoding RGB.

There is clarification in the image, as composite does not have the color bandwidth

"Clarified compared to composite" is not the claim they're making.

This is a good demonstration of how HD Retrovision preys on ignorance - the fact is that there are many appropriate choices, all basically plug-and-play, beyond "HD Retrovision or composite."

Claims that "HD Retrovision" actually "clarifies" something, suggested by their misleading brand name, aren't accidental, but they are still wrong.

[Edward_Tz]

You have some weird vendetta man. They aren't talking to the people running rgb cables and framemeisters. They're talking to the folks who have never connected a game system with anything but composite. Which is who they're making to. You're aggressive, and overly angry reaction to it is kind of sad and pathetic. It's almost like you're pissed off that others might enjoy retro games with a good video signal without spending a shit ton on other equipment. They're not wrong, composite video is terrible, and good quality cables that aren't ruining your video signal make a huge difference. Have you never seen marketing videos before? Do you not watch tv or go to the movies?

There's nothing bold or crazy in their claims, but you're reaction is clearly hostile, juvenile and really sad.

All your posts directed towards me have been attacking me and lies. Please grow up. If you find you can't then don't reply.

[Guspaz]

"Clarified compared to composite" is not the claim they're making.

Errm, isn't that the only claim they're making? Every single comparison photo and every single comparison video they ever did is showing the difference between composite and their cables. It's also what they basically say on their site where they basically say "composite looks bad, component looks better". I mean, it's right here: http://www.hdretrovision.com/genesis/

I'm not aware of any other plug-and-play option for playing a SNES or Genesis on a modern HDTV. There are other good solutions, like OSSC or the Framemeister, but those are not plug-and-play, nor are they cheap. I guess a standalone RGB-to-YPbPr converter is the simplest other solution, although that involves four components (three cables and a box) instead of one.

[Ed Oscuro]

No, the claim they are making is that they are doing something to

clarify the original Standard-Definition video signals provided by the consoles.

...which happens to be better-looking than composite, yes, but once again that is not what they are saying. They are doing more than imply you can't get this quality any other way when they say

[a game will] look like you've never seen it before.

Maybe you aren't aware that their early advertising had a graphic of "Marion" being upscaled from blocky original pixels to a smooth filtered version, and if memory serves right their ad copy supported that idea that their cable had something to do with this.

They aren't lying that badly anymore, but it's still clear that they are doing a lot more than just claim "it's better than composite and it's easy to use," which are claims I have no problems with at all.

But as far as a one-stop solution goes, even HD Retrovision can't fully agree with you as they have been talking for a long time about making a scaler box. Their plan is to get everybody into a HD Retrovision-built cable and device ecosystem, so this bears highlighting.
Incidentally, I doubt that their composite vs. component screenshots are a good representation of what one can expect from a modern HDTV. As for a stand-alone transcoder, these are quite cheap and the only thing holding the price of those up is the cost of SCART cables - but that works for every system with SCART cables. Whether getting stuck with whatever bargain transcoder and scaler designs Retrovision can buy for their products is worth the convenience and possible slight savings over an alternative I leave up to the reader, but I'm having trouble seeing the downside of a device like the OSSC fed through RGB cables.

[Guspaz]

I think the OSSC is a great option, but there are currently two problems:

1) It would appear that the current firmware is a tad buggy, so it's not quite ready yet. Really looking forward to seeing the bugs ironed out!

2) It's expensive. Not nearly as much as the framemeister, but still not cheap. I can't access vgp here, but IIRC the cost was 159 euros, which after shipping/conversion/tax/fees would be about $300 CAD. Roughly 60% the cost of a framemeister. Either way, that's still a good chunk of change.

[Ed Oscuro]

And the HD Retrovision scaler, should it appear, also probably won't be cheap. I don't expect much to come of it, though, since their cable is basically an off-the-shelf solution in one cable, as I understand it, with no original engineering of note.

And this whole side discussion is a mirror of how HD Retrovision hopes to sell its product: A comprehensive solution is expensive. This is true but does not make a partial solution more or less suitable.

[FinalBaton]

Yeah their screenshots are direct capture that have obviously been upscaled (probably in software) so that it looks good when blown up on your computer screen. Wich is all well and good.
But the thing is : when plugged directly into an HDTV, the HD Retrovision's picture will look at lot worse than those screen captures.

And this is the thing that I find deplorable about the HD Retrovision marketing; it can come across as "these screenshots are what you will get on your HDTV" to some average Joe's who don't know anything about scaling and resolution (whom are their target audience).

Otherwise, I think it's a good product for use with an SD CRT and I actually plan to buy one for a friend who wants to play his SNES again for the first time since his childhood. I'll help him pick up a good, smallish consumer CRT with component inputs

[Guspaz]

Errm, did you see the PCB shots I posted earlier? This does not look like an off-the-shelf solution to me:



That looks like a ton of effort to design and exhaustively test a solution that is small enough to fit inline in the cable, consume little enough power to not require external power, and produce a good quality signal for any hardware revision...