Another day, another killing (split from US shootings topic)

[BareKnuckleRoo]

http://www.wlox.com/story/30614080/poli ... ffle-house

[MintyTheCat]

http://www.wlox.com/story/30614080/poli ... ffle-house

Should be in the US thread, Roo.

Sounds insanely 'Mad Max' to me.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

My bad. I hadn't seen it since the split and all I saw was "Another day, another killing" and thought, well there's the shootings thread.

Kind of depressing to see shootings in the US got its very own special thread. Not surprising, just depressing. edit: wait no that one came first, durr

[MintyTheCat]

A suitably insane response to a Waitress asking the guy to "stop smoking inside the restaurant" and he pulls out a gun! Bloody insane response. It is not like the Waitress had any choice in stating this as it is her job to do so.

Once again: guns are a bad idea, people.

[Rob]

A man who could never have invented a stick with a stone tied to the end.

[MintyTheCat]

A man who could never have invented a stick with a stone tied to the end.

She looked so sweet in her hi-heeled shoes
She really knocked me out
I knew exactly what she wanted to do
There wasn’t any doubt

She looked at me
With a spark in her eye and she said
C’mon baby we could have a good time
So I

Slipped her the big one
I really knocked her out
Slipped her the big one
I really knocked her out
...

Well I'd trust him implicitly! The man is the picture of humanity.

He's perfect for the role of a nut job in something like The Hitcher - The Waffler.

Kids: don't start smoking as this is what will happen to you.

[Wenchang]

Good luck with that. The phenomenon of ISIS and the broader Islamist movement can only be understood in the context of the global economic crisis, which has taken on a structural character, and its effects in the periphery countries.

Right. ISIS are just misguided WTO protesters. I also love the vague language "structural character," "periphery countries," whichever ones those are supposed to be.

It's not something that you can just KTFO and call it a day. The Islamist movement represents the expression of the growing social discontent of millions of disparaged and increasingly marginalized citizens of the third-world. It's a radical reaction to decades of barbaric neoliberal policies and new age imperialism. ISIS knows its social base well and speaks to its concerns. Their propagandists are adept and persuasive. They raise important social issues and make appeals to all-Muslim solidarity under the auspices of the Caliphate. Zakāt, in particular, is a recurring subject in many of their videos on the Darknet(contrary to the common misconception created by propaganda in the mass media, only a small subsection of ISIS videos are dedicated to brutal executions).

That's funny, because I seem to recall ISIS blowing up mosques, shrines, and declaring everyone who is not a 100% ISIS supporter a kafir. Funny way to appeal to all-Muslim solidarity. We'll not even get into what they think of Shiites.

Every supporter of theirs is promised food, housing, sanitation and above all else, a sense of unity and a common goal to strive for. It's a supranational vision that defies modern conceptions of the world and nation-states, but one that most any downtrodden Muslim can relate to.

The ones they don't massacre at any rate. In any case, this is a pretty common tactic, nothing Pablo Escobar would have been unfamiliar with(but apparently you who have swallowed ISIS propaganda whole, aren't). Not a "supranational visions that defies modern conceptions of the world," give me a break. You're sure impressed with ISIS, amazing how much you get wrong.

ISIS are a militia that excel at operating in vacuums, and not much more(ok, apparently they have supporters who can launch terrorist attacks in France too, nothing unique to ISIS there). In Iraq, which isn't exactly a stable happy country if you haven't noticed, there is a large swath of discontented Sunnis who are unhappy with the fact that they're no longer in control of things, not to mention being driven out of Baghdad etc. Typical sectarian stuff. When ISIS are confronted with a military force(a real one, not the joke that is the Iraqi army), including poorly armed Kurds, they run away with their tail between their legs and move on to the next vacuum. If they were to try to go into a large Shia area they would get their ass kicked, they know it, everyone but Western rubes know this.

They're not a strategically incompetent group, but that's because they inherited former Saddam intelligence/security forces(good move by the Bush administration completely dismantling Iraq's former army and security forces, that sure worked out) who are among the previously mentioned discontented Sunni. They also have some Chechens, who do have actual combat prowess unlike the local Sunni population. And of course, they have managed to seize weapons, because the soldiers of the incompetent Iraqi army the U.S. has been funding and arming has absolutely no interest in trying to defend cities in the Sunni triangle, not that I can blame them for that. The collapse of governance, if you can call it that, in Syria has also created more vacuums. Really, none of this requires bullshit about asabiyyah or struggles against neo-liberalism(good one). They're a violent sectarian militia with enough competent leadership to so far have beaten out other Sunni sectarians. Only exciting thing about them is that they manage to recruit a bunch of cannon fodder from Western countries, which you know, wouldn't be such a bad thing if Western countries had any interest in preventing the clowns who manage to survive the ability to re-enter.

While undoubtedly there are some local rubes that buy into the caliphate stuff, you have to try pretty hard to pretend the violence is not a large part of the group's appeal. As I have said before though, this is pretty standard stuff, rape and pillage, fighting for glory, this is nothing new.

A fantasy so appealing on the surface, you don't have to be overly religious to be won over to its cause.

Just dumb and violent. Emphasis on dumb, being dumb is a much better predictor of one's tendency towards violence than being "downtrodden."

Of course, the tragedy of it all is that ISIS, the Islamist movements preceding it and the ones that will come after cannot possibly address any of the people's woes nor constitute an alternative to the rapidly deteriorating capitalist system that's overstayed its welcome by about six decades(the same goes for the fascist and other far-right movements springing up all over Europe promising change).

I would have thought the mass beheadings, massacres, kidnappings, burying people alive, rape of 9 year old Yazidi girls, etc. were the major tragedies. But silly me, the real problem is that ISIS, and other Muslims extremists, have failed to overthrow capitalism.

Effectively, the energy of millions of people is being channeled in a way that's completely counter-productive to their own interests. Instead of fighting for social progress and liberation, for a true revolutionary change, they are being led to slaughter for a prejudice, for the pretense of the idealized, bountiful past that never existed in the first place(at least not in the form they believe it to) - the ancient caliphate.

Your tendency of speaking on behalf of other people's interests is obnoxious.

[MintyTheCat]

Effectively, the energy of millions of people is being channeled in a way that's completely counter-productive to their own interests. Instead of fighting for social progress and liberation, for a true revolutionary change, they are being led to slaughter for a prejudice, for the pretense of the idealized, bountiful past that never existed in the first place(at least not in the form they believe it to) - the ancient caliphate.

Your tendency of speaking on behalf of other people's interests is obnoxious.

He fancies himself - too wordy and over-verbose the man is.
I often think that he is actually a Web-Bot

[Jonathan Ingram]

Oh, look. Wenchang is back again, together with his wiser-than-thou attitude and "knowledge" derived from Wikipedia pages. I specifically refrained from replying back when you rammed into me with a gag-worthy post about Soviet economy, South Korean enterprises, executed shamans and socialist cardboard cities in the Arctic in some other topic. I mean, can't afford to waste time on every right-wing numbnut you come across - it's bad for the hair. But since you are so persistent and aren't at all shy about mischaracterizing my words and pigeonholing my opinion, I do believe this warrants a reply, if only just once.

Right. ISIS are just misguided WTO protesters. I also love the vague language "structural character," "periphery countries," whichever ones those are supposed to be.

Repeating for the one with a reading and comprehension dysfunction: the existence of ISIS and the radical Islamist movement in general is owed to the growing economic disparity and is the consequence of people looking for alternatives. Write it down to conspiracies, religious superstitions, sectarian bickering and human ignorance all you want, these phenomena would never have taken root if there hadn't been a social basis for their existence. Yours is the same school of idiocy that would attribute Fascism's rise to prominence in 1930's Europe to all sorts of things, ranging from the "madman" Hitler to changes in the solar activity, all the while completely ignoring the economic processes that made it possible in the first place.

"Structural character" as in no longer just another instance of the supposedly endless boom-and-bust cycle contrary to what mainstream economists would want everyone to believe.

"Periphery countries" as in third-world neo-colonies kept in perpetual debt slavery and artificial backwardness.

That's funny, because I seem to recall ISIS blowing up mosques, shrines, and declaring everyone who is not a 100% ISIS supporter a kafir. Funny way to appeal to all-Muslim solidarity. We'll not even get into what they think of Shiites.

You missed the "under the auspices of the Caliphate" part. That's how it works. One doctrine is proclaimed as the only true way towards salvation and liberation. Everyone is welcomed into the fold as long as they readjust their previously held beliefs to a different standard. For this reason, the ISIS produce hundreds of videos where they have their preachers give long-winded explanations as to why *insert name* interpretation of Islam is incorrect and why *insert name* current of Islam is untrue.

The ones they don't massacre at any rate. In any case, this is a pretty common tactic, nothing Pablo Escobar would have been unfamiliar with(but apparently you[/I[ who have swallowed ISIS propaganda whole, aren't). Not a "supranational visions that defies modern conceptions of the world," give me a break. You're sure impressed with ISIS, amazing how much you get wrong.

While undoubtedly there are some local rubes that buy into the caliphate stuff, you have to try pretty hard to pretend the violence is not a large part of the group's appeal. As I have said before though, this is pretty standard stuff, rape and pillage, fighting for glory, this is nothing new.

You totally got me there, dude. I'm so enamored by their vision, I'm about to strap myself to a set of explosives, get an AK47 and hit the road to Syria.

Sure the Islamic State attracts all sorts of unsavory characters with the promotion of vigilant lifestyle and, straight from the horse's mouth, "wide sexual possibilities", but the bulk of their support comes from the disparaged groups of population. A sizable chunk of their propaganda is dedicated to showing off the supposedly idyllic lifestyle in the "Caliphate" - people casually going about their business in the ISIS-controlled cities and settlements, small proprietors peacefully tending to their stalls, shepherds lazily watching over their herds etc. That's where the main appeal of the Islamic State comes from and what dupes people into supporting it. Allmost all of the muslims from the Caucasus and Central Asia who left to fight for ISIS belong to the low-wage workers and unemployed. More of them have been leaving since the collapse of the Russian currency and the economy racing downwards and it can't be just to satisfy some perverted desire to wreck havoc and rape, even if it is part of the overall equation in some cases. This radicalization of popular sentiment is objective, just like all social processes are, and it wouldn't cease even if the Islamic State was miraculously erased out of existence tomorrow.

It's funny you bring up Escobar and try to create parallels between him and the Islamic State yet fail to understand that it is precisely the social content of their politics and the promised obligations to their followers(more so in Escobar's case) that helped them mobilize popular support and made them into the phenomena they are, not their violent ways of doing business.

Just dumb and violent. Emphasis on dumb, being dumb is a much better predictor of one's tendency towards violence than being "downtrodden."

Because obviously an individual's action is not a reflection of their social existence and experience, but rather a product of their inherent character traits and specific behavioral patterns predisposed by their genes. Biological determinism, I know. If someone behaves in a violent way, it's because they were born that way. If a couple of East End yobs spread your guts with a knife to take your wallet, it's because they are naturally dumb and violent. A mob burns down a neighborhood? - Dumb and violent. Chinese workers cremate their boss in his office? - Dumb and violent. Some folks choose this or that political tendency? - Determined by their degree of stupidity and predisposition towards violence.

I would have thought the mass beheadings, massacres, kidnappings, burying people alive, rape of 9 year old Yazidi girls, etc. were the major tragedies. But silly me, the real problem is that ISIS, and other Muslims extremists, have failed to overthrow capitalism.

Nice misrepresentation of my words. But you know what? I am dissapoint, brother. I'd have expected you to at least admit to these unfortunate events being the rear side of the capitalist coin(that is, if there was at least an ounce of honesty and decency to your beliefs), something that comes with the package, two parts of one whole, like sexual debauchery and venereal diseases. But apparently, that's too much to ask.

Make no mistake. It's your tendencies that have turned the world into a disgusting, unbearable shithole where the economy is hostage to the self-fulfillment of the few, where every human trait and ability is a commodity to be traded in the marketplace and where the very existence of our species is subjugated to the brutal logic of endless profit maximization. Chauvinism, racism, gross inequality, grinding poverty, backwardness and barbaric violence are what you get in return. These "Muslim extremists" are a byproduct, a spin-off if you will, of the economic reality that you support and endorse, so do a favor and can your dishonest bleating and phoney moralizing. It doesn't become you. In the end, it's questionable who's the bigger extremists and murderers - the gun-toting ISIS thugs or the sleek and well-spoken misanthropes way up in the International Monetary Fund hierarchy devising privatization schemes for the deployment all over the world.

Your tendency of speaking on behalf of other people's interests is obnoxious.

I tend to think that most people want nothing more than to lead a peaceful life and be provided with housing, food, sanitation, accessible healthcare and education, a secure job and free time. Obnoxious, I know.

[Wenchang]

Oh, look. Wenchang is back again, together with his wiser-than-thou attitude and "knowledge" derived from Wikipedia pages. I specifically refrained from replying back when you rammed into me with a gag-worthy post about Soviet economy, South Korean enterprises, executed shamans and socialist cardboard cities in the Arctic in some other topic. I mean, can't afford to waste time on every right-wing numbnut you come across - it's bad for the hair. But since you are so persistent and aren't at all shy about mischaracterizing my words and pigeonholing my opinion, I do believe this warrants a reply, if only just once.

If recognizing that the Soviet economy was fucked up, that there exists major problems with much of the Muslim world which are not all a result of Western atrocities, that all of the problems in the world cannot be boiled down to a struggle against neo-liberalism, that most of modern improvements in life expectancy have been experienced under what we vaguely call "Capitalism," and that many of the ideas thrown around by leftists are stupid, if that's what it takes to be a right-winger nowadays, then you're right I'm a right-winger. Sign me up for the far right.

(Also I have totally forgotten saying anything about executed shamans)

Repeating for the one with a reading and comprehension dysfunction: the existence of ISIS and the radical Islamist movement in general is owed to the growing economic disparity and is the consequence of people looking for alternatives.

Well here I'll "misrepresent" your words again: There's no "radical Islamist movement." There are multiple groups, which cannot all be pigeon-holed into one simple ideology. Of course, you'll say that you didn't say that, so I would caution you to be more specific about who you are talking about because you sure are implying something like that.

Write it down to conspiracies, religious superstitions, sectarian bickering and human ignorance all you want, these phenomena would never have taken root if there hadn't been a social basis for their existence. Yours is the same school of idiocy that would attribute Fascism's rise to prominence in 1930's Europe to all sorts of things, ranging from the "madman" Hitler to changes in the solar activity, all the while completely ignoring the economic processes that made it possible in the first place.

This business about how it's either your theory or it must be some kind of narrow interpretation only is a bit like ED-057 responding to criticisms of his theories by saying that, at least his ideas are an alternative to the mainstream. But of course it's a false dichotomy. Mainstream and particular criticisms of mainstream ideas can both be equally wrong. Similarly, the idea that either it's your interpretation or it's some bad interpretation that you assume everyone else has. Or for that matter, either it's a "social" theory or it's all about individuals. Nope.

On the contrary, I did provide a social theory, perhaps not one you like, but I talked about ISIS as a specifically Sunni movement(perhaps didn't use enough facts from Wikipedia though, sorry about that) based out of Iraq. You are the one who is only looking at one side of the coin. There's nothing wrong with focusing on larger social forces, there's also nothing wrong with profiling characteristics of individuals. Again, you are the one with the blind spot here.

Also I would not ignore the economic reasons behind fascism's rise, because they tend to stand out so much they're staring one in the face.

"Structural character" as in no longer just another instance of the supposedly endless boom-and-bust cycle contrary to what mainstream economists would want everyone to believe.

I'm not asking for what "structural character," means, I'm criticizing your jargon and your constant reference to vague anti-capitalists forces as a theory of everything.

"Periphery countries" as in third-world neo-colonies kept in perpetual debt slavery and artificial backwardness.

Yes, ISIS primarily recruits from Argentina don't they?

You missed the "under the auspices of the Caliphate" part. That's how it works. One doctrine is proclaimed as the only true way towards salvation and liberation. Everyone is welcomed into the fold as long as they readjust their previously held beliefs to a different standard. For this reason, the ISIS produce hundreds of videos where they have their preachers give long-winded explanations as to why *insert name* interpretation of Islam is incorrect and why *insert name* current of Islam is untrue.

Sorry, referring a caliphate doesn't save your idea. I'll just quote you, because I don't want to misrepresent your views, I'll even put them in context: You say destroying ISIS is not a simple thing to do, that they "can only be understood in the context of the global economic crisis" (my emphasis) which impacts "periphery countries" and that they represent "the growing social discontent of millions of disparaged and increasingly marginalized citizens of the third-world." You describe the "Islamic movement" as a "radical reaction to decades of barbaric neoliberal policies and new age imperialism" and say that ISIS raises "important social issues and make appeals to all-Muslim solidarity under the auspices of the Caliphate."

What's funny about this is that before referencing "all-Muslim solidarity," all you seem interested in talking about is how ISIS are opposed to capitalism or whatever, you don't say hardly anything about Islam except to reference Zakat(which you give us a Wikipedia link to), which conveniently also fits in nicely with your economic theories. Now I think it's reasonable to bring up the fact that ISIS are completely against any kind of Shia Islam as a contradiction to the idea that ISIS "make appeals to all-Muslim solidarity," whether it's under the auspices of a Caliphate or not(Shia Islam not being opposed to the idea of Caliphates, even if they don't agree on how to decide about how to determine ruling them, but there I am bringing up Wikipedia facts again). You know, I think my theory of a bunch of disgruntled Iraqi Sunni is a lot closer to reality than yours, even if I don't pretend it explains everything like you do.

Not to get into citing Wikipedia articles or anything, but you know, there have been examples in history of governments that have managed to more or less accommodate both Sunni and Shia, maybe in light of that you should reconsider saying things about ISIS' "appeals to all-Muslim solidarity," which quite frankly is one of the dumbest things I've read.

Sure the Islamic State attracts all sorts of unsavory characters with the promotion of vigilant lifestyle and, straight from the horse's mouth, "wide sexual possibilities", but the bulk of their support comes from the disparaged groups of population. A sizable chunk of their propaganda is dedicated to showing off the supposedly idyllic lifestyle in the "Caliphate" - people casually going about their business in the ISIS-controlled cities and settlements, small proprietors peacefully tending to their stalls, shepherds lazily watching over their herds etc. That's where the main appeal of the Islamic State comes from and what dupes people into supporting it. Allmost all of the muslims from the Caucasus and Central Asia who left to fight for ISIS belong to the low-wage workers and unemployed. More of them have been leaving since the collapse of the Russian currency and the economy racing downwards and it can't be just to satisfy some perverted desire to wreck havoc and rape, even if it is part of the overall equation in some cases. This radicalization of popular sentiment is objective, just like all social processes are, and it wouldn't cease even if the Islamic State was miraculously erased out of existence tomorrow.

This is pretty typical reasoning, you say that almost "all of the muslims from the Caucasus and Central Asia who left to fight for ISIS belong to the low-wage workers and unemployed" and conclude from that, that ISIS' support must be just because of downtrodden, poor people. That's all one has to do to prove something, bring up some statistical associations, and you've got a causal relationship. We'll just ignore the undoubtedly larger numbers of low-wage unemployed Muslims who do not support ISIS. I won't even get into examples of rich Saudis etc. who have supported radical Islamic groups, because I don't want to start sounding like a Wikipedia article.

It's funny you bring up Escobar and try to create parallels between him and the Islamic State yet fail to understand that it is precisely the social content of their politics and the promised obligations to their followers(more so in Escobar's case) that helped them mobilize popular support and made them into the phenomena they are, not their violent ways of doing business.

It's not exactly a choice between whether ISIS are better at propaganda than other groups or whether they are more effective militarily. Both are likely to be true. But the idea that ISIS' "violent ways of doing business" is just sort of incidental, I don't even know what to say to that one. You might observe that Iraq has had many militia groups, and that ISIS did not rise above them by being friendly and persuasive. You might also observe that ISIS didn't convince everyone to dress properly, give taxes, do business at the time of day ISIS considers appropriate, etc. with zero coercive enforcement of these demands. You just might want to remember that next time you are impressed with ISIS propaganda. You might also consider that the idea of legitimacy through force is not exactly a new one, or a stupid one, but I'll avoid any details because I don't want to give you the impression I have been spending too much time on Wikipedia.

Because obviously an individual's action is not a reflection of their social existence and experience, but rather a product of their inherent character traits and specific behavioral patterns predisposed by their genes. Biological determinism, I know. If someone behaves in a violent way, it's because they were born that way. If a couple of East End yobs spread your guts with a knife to take your wallet, it's because they are naturally dumb and violent. A mob burns down a neighborhood? - Dumb and violent.

False dichotomies again. Also, I didn't actually say anything biological determinism, although you can go in that direction if you like, it doesn't present any difficulties to any ideas I expressed. I don't really care if you define being "dumb" as being a biological "g-factor" or having to do with backward cultural practices, so long as we accept that many jihadis are dumb and so long as we're aware of the statistical correlations.

Chinese workers cremate their boss in his office? - Dumb and violent. Some folks choose this or that political tendency? - Determined by their degree of stupidity and predisposition towards violence.

I wouldn't compare disgruntled Chinese workers to ISIS supporters. You would of course, but that's because you think they're all part of the struggle to overcome neoliberalism. Other people might have enough self-awareness to recognize what an absurd comparison that is. What's next? Why not compare ISIS members to the Greek resistance in WW2 as well?

Nice misrepresentation of my words.

Sorry if I find it amusing that you go on and on about ISIS as a force against Capitalism who relies upon the support of poor, disgruntled Muslims, and then the best you can say to criticize them is that, 'oh dear it won't work.'

Make no mistake. It's your tendencies that have turned the world into a disgusting, unbearable shithole where the economy is hostage to the self-fulfillment of the few, where every human trait and ability is a commodity to be traded in the marketplace and where the very existence of our species is subjugated to the brutal logic of endless profit maximization. Chauvinism, racism, gross inequality, grinding poverty, backwardness and barbaric violence are what you get in return. These "Muslim extremists" are a byproduct, a spin-off if you will, of the economic reality that you support and endorse, so do a favor and can your dishonest bleating and phoney moralizing. It doesn't become you. In the end, it's questionable who's the bigger extremists and murderers - the gun-toting ISIS thugs or the sleek and well-spoken misanthropes way up in the International Monetary Fund hierarchy devising privatization schemes for the deployment all over the world.

Tell us how you really feel. The world began with capitalism, all problems began thereafter. Including racism, chauvinism, gross inequality, backwardness, and barbaric violence. All of these are a product of capitalism. Before capitalism, none of these problems existed.

(The IMF is also pretty heavily discredited and its major projects have ended with failure, not that you would know the difference because to you the IMF is just a vague, even present evil force to invoke whenever it's convenient)

Actually, let's be honest here, it's obvious from your posts: You don't like capitalism(whatever it is), and because you don't like it, you are convinced everyone else with an issue doesn't like it either, and are happy to self-righteously appropriate every movement as being just another example of people who share your views. Anyone who questions this approach is morally bankrupt, and obviously supports everything that comes about as a result of capitalism as you define it. Your views are as stupid and as black and white as those of ISIS. No wonder their propaganda makes such an impression on you.

I'm glad you finally brought up the IMF though, I don't have to make the sarcastic jokes myself.

I tend to think that most people want nothing more than to lead a peaceful life and be provided with housing, food, sanitation, accessible healthcare and education, a secure job and free time. Obnoxious, I know.

Frankly I don't think I've been "wiser-than-thou" enough. One of the stupid things about your post is that you interpret every single example of material poverty as an example of capitalism's crimes, and you interpret every effort by radical groups to do something about some people's material condition as an example of a struggle against capitalism. It's ridiculous that I should have to point this out, but I will: A desire to have superior material conditions, the ability to be bribed by being offered stuff, these things are not unqiue to victims of capitalism or the 'Capitalist era.'

You know, you can probably find examples of some obscure hunter-gatherer group who know nothing of markets or capitalism, but are pretty happy to receive food, guns, alcholol, and other stuff from the outside world, and might just be interested in your schemes if you can convince them it will help them wipe out the other tribe in the neighborhood who they keep fighting with. One doesn't need to have any theories about capitalism or anything to understand this tendency(nor does one need to know who Pablo Escobar is). An illiterate hick with little knowledge of the outside world would probably have little difficulty understanding this. But you apparently have difficult with the idea. Think about that for a bit, I don't want to call you names, but really, your ideas are embarrassing.

Also, it's really really weird that you keep going on about neoliberalism and say nothing about for example the U.S. war in Iraq or any local political factors in Iraq or Syria, even though it's pretty obvious they have an awful lot to do with what's going on in that region of the world. But perhaps those factors are just more examples of the crimes of neoliberal capitalism, so why bother mentioning them when you already have a theory that explains everything.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Sorry if I find it amusing that you go on and on about ISIS as a force against Capitalism who relies upon the support of poor, disgruntled Muslims, and then the best you can say to criticize them is that, 'oh dear it won't work.'

I never said that ISIS was a stalwart against capitalism or expressed personal disappointment in their failure to deliver(that's just you twisting my words again, which you proceeded to do repeatedly throughout the rest of your post). Only that it channels the growing discontent with worsening economic conditions in a number of countries, which is hardly a far-fetched conclusion when you consider how the rising number of people leaving to join the ISIS somehow coincides with the continued economic downturn.

Well here I'll "misrepresent" your words again: There's no "radical Islamist movement." There are multiple groups, which cannot all be pigeon-holed into one simple ideology.

Right, not a movement. All those Islamist groups in the Caucasus, Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan swearing fealty to the Islamic State must be doing so out of boredom. Last time I saw the list of Islamist groups in the post-Soviet space that have established ties with the ISIS or have had supporters defect to it, it was at least a couple of pages long.

One of the stupid things about your post is that you interpret every single example of material poverty as an example of capitalism's crimes

Capitalism is a totality that encompasses all spheres of life. It's the sum-total of all social inter-relations. Implying that any instance of human misery or an act of violence can be chalked up to forces external to capitalism is at best a sign of metaphysical understanding of reality, at worst you being purposefully dishonest. In all likelihood, it's probably both.

Interestingly, but perhaps unsurprisingly, the very same fine gentlemen who do all in their power to shift the blame from capitalism elsewhere, sing a very different song when the subject of discussion is PRC under Mao's tenure. Suddenly, every corpse is put on socialism's account all the while the story of the "inhumane regime" is livened up with grotesque tales of "artificial famines", "purposeful mass murder" and "heinous crimes that defy imagination".

...and you interpret every effort by radical groups to do something about some people's material condition as an example of a struggle against capitalism

No. I interpret the radicalization as a consequence of the deteriorating material conditions, not as an actual conscious struggle against capitalism. That's your words, not mine. To "struggle" against it, you'll need to be able to formulate what capitalism actually is and have a basic understanding of what makes its cogs spin and how it affects your standing in society.

The world began with capitalism, all problems began thereafter. Including racism, chauvinism, gross inequality, backwardness, and barbaric violence. All of these are a product of capitalism. Before capitalism, none of these problems existed.

If hell existed, it would be a stuffy, smelly room where you were stuck for all eternity with the type of ignoramus who believes capitalism has been around since the dawn of time. In reality, the discourse of property didn't even exist in the primitive societies that subsisted on foraging, where communal marriage was an actual thing. The very property relations and social classes wouldn't even start to form until the Neolithic Revolution. Not to mention that property relations alone are not synonymous with capitalism and that the latter is a strictly European phenomenon that wouldn't start to come into its own until the birth of European city-states before finally emerging as a truly dominant system in the late 18th century after the bourgeois revolution in France and the American revolutionary war.

[Xyga]

Aaaand as expected in France the far-right easily comes on top in the regional elections first poll.

It's not exclusively because of the november 13th attacks (the whole cuntry is seriously fed up with everything), but it sure gave'em a big boost.

Bad news if we think of Murphy's law (general election is scheduled for 2017), good thing from an accelerationist perspective.

At least we can enjoy watching the current party in power (our equivalent of the Democrats or Labour) who also held most of the regional seats, getting raped live.

[quash]

Another day, another radical Islamic terrorist attack in Europe.

[Skykid]

Another day, another radical Islamic terrorist attack in Europe.

Yeah just seen it. Something radical needs to be done about this radical problem.

[quash]

I agree: Europe and the US should absorb the entire populations of Syria and Libya. It's the only way we can curb Islamophobia and put an end to systematic, institutionalized privilege.

[austere]

I thought it was a religion of peace, why do they keep bombing airports and metros? I thought they were peaceful protestors who dindu nuffin. It turns out supporting terrorist groups world wide has a heavy cost attached to it. Europe is beginning to feel a very tiny amount of pain from the horrors it (alongside the US, the Gulf states, Turkey and Israel) unleashed onto Syria, by the very same people it armed and funded. Also, you can be sure Algerians* were behind this. They've activated their terror cells all over North Africa. However, regardless of this, when ISIS takes credit for it shortly they'll start blaming Syrians (the victims, as usual) instead of themselves for creating this monster.

Everyone wants to deal with the symptoms while looking away from the cause.

In all seriousness, metro's been bombed and shut down. Double bombing at Brussels airport, also shutdown. All flights into Brussels have been diverted. Hope anyone from Belgium here is safe. Now even the departure terminal entrances are going to require security checks which is going to suck.

EDIT: * On second thought this is highly suspicious, specific location and method prior to bombing:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/2e8f57b8 ... ys-erdogan

Speaking at ceremony to commemorate the 101st anniversary of the Battle of Gallipoli in the coastal town of Canakkale, Erdogan said, "there is no reason why the bomb that exploded in Ankara cannot explode in Brussels, in any other European city."

"The snakes you are sleeping with can bite you any time," he added.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, here we go again. It's really sad, this is the state of things, right now.

My heart goes out to you Europeans. Granted, America has it's massive problems as well, but hey, it's all sad (and preventable, in my opinion).

[Skykid]

I agree: Europe and the US should absorb the entire populations of Syria and Libya. It's the only way we can curb Islamophobia and put an end to systematic, institutionalized privilege.

Simultaneously adopting Islam as the national religion, just to be fair and balanced.

[evil_ash_xero]

I agree: Europe and the US should absorb the entire populations of Syria and Libya. It's the only way we can curb Islamophobia and put an end to systematic, institutionalized privilege.

Simultaneously adopting Islam as the national religion, just to be fair and balanced.

Why can't we have peace, like in the Islamic countries?! Damn our Western ways. It's got to be us.

[Rob]

Damn our Western ways. It's got to be us.

Uh, yeah - to not take some credit would be too modest. Our "Western way" is to smack various hornet nests until something exciting happens.

[austere]

Damn our Western ways. It's got to be us.

Uh, yeah - to not take some credit would be too modest. Our "Western way" is to smack various hornet nests until something exciting happens.

Shhhh don't interrupt the smug sense of superiority, absolutely nothing happened the last 5 years that could ever have contributed to these terrorist attacks!

[CIT]

Shhhh don't interrupt the smug sense of superiority, absolutely nothing happened the last 5 years that could ever have contributed to these terrorist attacks!

Let's not kid ourselves, it doesn't matter what "the West" does, because for conspiracy theorists like you it would always be the wrong thing.

This kind of terror is not a reaction for anything Europe does. In fact it has nothing to do with Europe at all. The leadership of the various Islamist groups need it to close ranks in their home territories, to attract new recruits by demonstrating their "power", and to keep their bogeyman alive by creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[austere]

(Slurping sounds)

You're right, there's no connection between the support of terrorist groups in Syria, or the destruction of Libya and mass human flow into Europe with many people skilled in bomb making and use of fire arms.

Such assertions are a conspiracy theory.

[Durandal]

What bothers me most about this is that everyone knew it was going to happen eventually.
Yet everyone is still sitting with their thumbs up their asses.
We can't just ban or put muslim immigrants under extreme surveillance, because that is too inhuman.
We can't just open up our borders for all immigrants, because ISIL can use the opportunity to smuggle in agents.
We can't just put security detail and surveillance cameras everywhere, because that is a waste of money and time, and only serves to enforce the paranoia.

So we are stuck hoping that the military and police can catch those terrorists before they carry out their acts, while schools and society teach us to be tolerant, as the media curbstomps any notion that such terrorist attacks maybe might have been the result of unchecked immigration. These attacks are like the European equivalent of gunman massacres in the USA. Is this the fault of modern society or democracy that we can't take any drastic measures?

Meanwhile in the USA

[CIT]

(Slurping sounds)

You're right, there's no connection between the support of terrorist groups in Syria, or the destruction of Libya and mass human flow into Europe with many people skilled in bomb making and use of fire arms.

Such assertions are a conspiracy theory.

Not surprised you resort to insults as soon as someone calls you on your bullshit. Didn't you write something about being smug earlier?

[austere]

Is this the fault of modern society or democracy that we can't take any drastic measures?

Think of nations like houses without fire proofing. You set your neighbour's country on fire, eventually that fire will spread to yours. It has a precedent in history, in fact and is likely the subject of the epic, Odyssey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH8Ln4j3X0Q

The ancient rule is if you want to destroy a country, make sure to vanquish everyone inside it (bar the women, I suppose) and garrison it immediately. In the 21st century, this is unacceptable to most people. Not sure why though, the interventionist wars created a fire that has now spread to them. It's easy to complain but analysts and leader have been warning about this for years. Unfortunately, whenever they want to open up such a conversation, people like CIT shut it down with a thought terminating cliche.

Not surprised you resort to insults as soon as someone calls you on your bullshit

Let me reiterate, I don't count thought terminating cliches, "calling out" to be honest. You have a chip on your shoulder. For example: "This kind of terror is not a reaction for anything Europe does", of course it's not a reaction, it's a conclusion. When you support terrorist groups in one location, they grow strong in ALL locations.

Maybe you don't really take note of what's going on around the world, but Europe and NATO actively supported and sustained terrorist groups in Libya and Syria. To tell me that there's no connection between these two facts is absolutely retarded and can't really be quoted as anything but slurping sounds.

(Oh and before complaining about insults, be sure not to throw them at others in the first place. Hypocrite.)

[CIT]

thought terminating cliches

You're the expert on these, as you use an argumentative immunizing strategy that postulates that certain unverifiable causes (Europe meddling abroad) should be inferred ex post fact from their supposed effects (terrorism hits Europe).

When you support terrorist groups in one location, they grow strong in ALL locations.

correlation ≠ causation

Maybe you don't really take note of what's going on around the world, but Europe and NATO actively supported and sustained terrorist groups in Libya and Syria. To tell me that there's no connection between these two facts is absolutely retarded and can't really be quoted as anything but slurping sounds.

Because I don't agree with you, it must mean that I'm "retarded" and I "don't really take note of what's going on around the world". So much for thought terminating cliches.

[austere]

You're the expert on these, as you use an argumentative immunizing strategy that postulates that certain unverifiable causes (Europe meddling abroad) should be inferred ex post fact from their supposed effects (terrorism hits Europe).

You're absolutely right and every single analyst out there saying otherwise is a conspiracy theorist. Like these fellows:

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/712325947425427456

How Google, among others, contributed to today's terror attack in Belgium by making Syria a breeding ground for ISIS http://ind.pn/22tXyog

European campaign to destroy Libya and arm "moderates" in Syria can never be verified, despite the plethora of meetings ("Friends of Syria") and public announcements of funding, arming and training. Not to mention your government's (German) contribution in the form of boats spying on Syrian military communication in 2011. They even had the audacity to complain when the Syrian navy got them to piss off.

correlation ≠ causation

Yes, it's easy to state this, harder to put it in context. I didn't infer a statistical correlation, that's not how the real world works. Nevertheless, these events had NEVER occurred with this frequency prior to the terror storm that began in 2011. And they're only happening faster. That you're oblivious to the world around you does not contribute towards dispproving the assertion that breeding terrorism abroad makes things at home less safe.

Because I don't agree with you, it must mean that I'm "retarded"

And because I'm more informed than you, I'm a conspiracy theorist. You put the gauntlet up first buddy, if you apologise then so will I. If you're willing to make an argument rather than just contradicting facts with unsourced uncertainty, be my guest as well -- no need for niceties. The fact of the matter is the refugee flow did not exist before the "Arab spring". This is one vector for terrorists to make it back to Europe, but it doesn't explain their training, networking and access to bomb making knowledge. But it isn't the only way for terrorists to make it to Europe. Sometimes the source is much closer to home.

So on that point let's put all that shit to the side and I'll disprove your assertion DIRECTLY:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... otbed.html

How Belgium Became a Terrorism Hotbed
For the past year, terrorist plot after terrorist plot has been tied back to Belgium. How did this tiny nation become ground zero?

Two of them were French citizens and brothers living (and born) in the Molenbeek suburb in north-west Brussels, a third was a Belgian who left for Syria a year ago. The first brother is called Brahim Abdeslam, who killed himself using an explosive belt in a cafe at the Rue Voltaire.

Maybe he's just an exception though right? What I asserted after all was a systematic problem. We'll need a much larger figure to prove this point, something in the ball park of around a hundred to obey the law of large numbers right? Oh what is this?

Belgium, wedged in between Germany, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, and France, has brought forth a disproportionate amount of jihadists. “The maximum number of Belgians who at one point were active in Syria or Iraq has climbed to 516,” Belgian Arabist and author Pieter van Ostaeyen said on his blog last month. Van Ostayen has been keeping a close eye on developments within Belgian minority groups vulnerable to radicalization. The number of jihadists, put into context, becomes quite alarming. “This number means that out of Belgium’s Muslim population of about 640,000 individuals, there is roughly one per 1,260 who has been involved in jihad in Syria and Iraq. At this point Belgium is, per capita, by far the European nation contributing the most to the foreign element in the Syrian war.”

Holy shit let's read that again:

At this point Belgium is, per capita, by far the European nation contributing the most to the foreign element in the Syrian war.”

Could it be that lying about a "democracy revolution", arming "moderate (terrorists)" and funding their campaign through "friends of Syria" coalitions while not monitoring radicals as they leave to fight could contribute to things backfiring eventually when these savage Islamist beasts finally decide to go home?

No way. That's a conspiracy theory.

[quash]

But Obama is a progressive, he'd never instigate conflict. That's for warmongering Republicans, not liberals like Obama.

Whatever you do, don't blame Muslims! Don't you dare politicize this either, giving in to fear and ignorance is exactly what ISIS wants!

Since the liberals are too ashamed to admit that they're wrong, I figure I may as well keep their line of discussion going.

[GaijinPunch]

Who are you babbling to?