HD retrovision - Did anyone join the kickstarter?

[leonk]

Stupid iPhone auto correct. Yes. You are correct about cable manufacturer.

As for SCART switcher, again, I know you were upset about that final cost of the gscartsw but there are a lot cheaper (and some better) solutions. I picked up my Keen Commander (CIB) for only $110. (It's still in the box. Didn't get a chance to set it up yet)

At the end of the day, if all you care about is unlocking the best out of your retro consoles, it costs $$$, and these cables are not it. Yes, I'm biased because most of my customers commission me to unlock the best potential out of their systems. I would never offer them this solution if "best" is what they want.

lets wait for the reviews once these start selling.

[bobrocks95]

The $21 component switch that I used for the price is a powered/amplified unit with support for both audio and video and digital coax audio from Monoprice. But fair enough, it's not a high-end switch. I bought a new Audio Authority 4:1 component video switcher. Amplified/powered, auto switching, with support for component video, analog audio, TOSLINK, or digital coax. It cost me $100 CAD shipped. That's still less than half the price-per-input as the gscartsw, or a quarter the price if you don't need 8 inputs.

I really don't mean to derail the topic any further than it already has been, but have you had any problems with that Audio Authority switch de-syncing on your display because the signal was too hot? I've heard all AA component switches boost the signal they get and mine will cause a de-sync on bright white screens.

As for the actual point leonk just raised about these not being the best solution... Presumably they will be comparable to a SCART cable and an external converter, right? What makes these inherently worse if pricing isn't the main factor? If you're assuming they will be poor quality before they've been released, that's unfair to say unabashedly.

[neorichieb1971]

Well I am interested in the cables. To me, having close to perfection for 10% the price of ABSOLUTE perfection is perfectly ok with me.

I am more interested in the HDMIzer solution to go with the cables though. On their own they offer significantly less value.

I don't like the way you guys are all fighting over shit when its based on speculation. As one poster wrote earlier, let the cables come out and see what they offer.

[Guspaz]

I'm actually just using the audio authority switch for audio right now. I needed an audio switch, and anticipated moving to the HDR cables in the future, so it seemed like a decent idea to get one box for both. As a result, I've not tested out how video goes through it, part from a brief experiment to see if I could pass RGBs through it by running sync through the coax digital port. I figured that if they weren't doing anything special on that port, it might pass sync through without messing with it much. It doesn't.

It's not perfect, and I've got three main complaints about it:

1) The switch button doesn't click when you depress it (no click at the end of the movement) and it'll change by more than one input if you don't press and release fast enough. So that means you need to somewhat awkwardly tap it very quickly as many times as is required to get to the input you want.

2) When in automatic mode, it will switch away from an input as soon as the signal on that input weakens, even if there are no other inputs with any activity on it. As a result, if you leave it in automatic mode and only use it for audio, it will keep switching to and away from the only active input whenever the audio is quiet, cutting off the start/end of sounds in the game. You have to manually switch to an input to use it for audio. I would prefer if the switch did not automatically switch away from an input if no other inputs have any signal at all. This should not be a problem for video, because the luma signal would always have sync if nothing else. The manual actually specifically addresses this point by saying that it will only switch to another input if it's active, and that when used for audio-only sources it will remain on the input for at least 15 seconds to prevent silences from making it switch. Both of these statements are false, it switches from the active input to inactive ones, and it does so much more frequently than 15 seconds. You can use the DIP switches to disable automatic switching entirely, but that defeats the purpose, and seems no better than just using the manual switch to lock to an input.

3) The port layout on the back is super dumb. All the video inputs are on one side, all the audio inputs are on the other side, and all the outputs are between them. This makes wiring it up way harder because every single cable you have is basically crossing every single other cable. I've got the 1154A, and they fixed this in the 1154A, which actually groups together all the sockets for a single input instead of splitting them up.

[bobrocks95]

Apparently automatic switching worked so poorly on mine they disabled the feature entirely with a firmware update. There is no way to downgrade the firmware either. Combine that with the de-syncing and the analog to digital conversion not working well (mine also switches DVI), and I wish I had another component switch. Don't know of other good options though.

[FinalBaton]

Using something other than SCART cables for RGB would make things even harder, because as problematic as RGB SCART is, it's even harder to find

I agree with pretty much everything you've said so far, but what I've quoted, I disagree with.

There's actually an RGB connector that's more convenient and cheaper to use with switches than SCART (AND component). That connector is HD-15.

Just ask your RGB cables provider, like retro_console_accessories, to wire your console cables for HD-15 instead of SCART (this will cost you like $2 more per cable) and get an Extron VGA switch (you can pick these up from $50 plus shipping and they are professional grade). Done.

Your setup will even have the benefit of being SLG-3000 friendly.


I personally wish I had went this way before buying all those SCART cables. Too late now... oh well

[darcagn]

I think it's safe to say that if you post in the Shmups Hardware forum this is not a product targeted to you.

Simply put, it's common knowledge that component is better than composite. But it isn't common knowledge what SCART even fucking is, in North America. Thus, people who want better quality from their SNES will likely just Google up "snes component cable" and buy this cable instead of digging into purchasing transcoders ("wtf is a transcoder") or upscalers.

Some of you really overestimate the average gamer.

[FinalBaton]

I think it's safe to say that if you post in the Shmups Hardware forum this is not a product targeted to you.

Simply put, it's common knowledge that component is better than composite. But it isn't common knowledge what SCART even fucking is, in North America. Thus, people who want better quality from their SNES will likely just Google up "snes component cable" and buy this cable instead of digging into purchasing transcoders ("wtf is a transcoder") or upscalers.

Some of you really overestimate the average gamer.

This is very well said

[leonk]

Actually, most will google SNES HDMI and will just end up getting the Retron 5.

I see these Retron 5 consoles EVERYWHERE. Every game store, every swap ...

[Guspaz]

True, it's the only retro gaming device I've ever actually seen in regular retail stores. I was at an FYE in Vermont (it's like the American version of HMV), and even they were selling them.

[werk91]

Just ask your RGB cables provider, like retro_console_accessories, to wire your console cables for HD-15 instead of SCART (this will cost you like $2 more per cable) and get an Extron VGA switch (you can pick these up from $50 plus shipping and they are professional grade)

Other VGA switchers can also be found for much cheaper. I got a CPCD-41AR by CYP for 5£ and its quality doesn't lack when compared to an Extron switcher in any aspect. Unfortunately as far as I know there are no ways in obtaining HD-15 cables for consoles here unless you make some yourself.

[darcagn]

Actually, most will google SNES HDMI and will just end up getting the Retron 5.

Maybe, unless the point was to hook up their old SNES that they already have. Not everyone is trying to "get into" retro gaming. Some people just want to hook up the old shit they came across in their closet and got a touch of nostalgia for.

[leonk]

Actually, most will google SNES HDMI and will just end up getting the Retron 5.

Maybe, unless the point was to hook up their old SNES that they already have. Not everyone is trying to "get into" retro gaming. Some people just want to hook up the old shit they came across in their closet and got a touch of nostalgia for.

I know quite a few people that have a games room in their finished basement with a big LCD screen on the wall, and a rack full of consoles all feeding the TV via XRGB-mini. But in the main family room, or bedroom (due to spouse approval factor) a Retron 5 is used for gaming. Less visible, less wires.

[mikejmoffitt]

Using something other than SCART cables for RGB would make things even harder, because as problematic as RGB SCART is, it's even harder to find

I agree with pretty much everything you've said so far, but what I've quoted, I disagree with.

There's actually an RGB connector that's more convenient and cheaper to use with switches than SCART (AND component). That connector is HD-15.

Just ask your RGB cables provider, like retro_console_accessories, to wire your console cables for HD-15 instead of SCART (this will cost you like $2 more per cable) and get an Extron VGA switch (you can pick these up from $50 plus shipping and they are professional grade). Done.

Your setup will even have the benefit of being SLG-3000 friendly.

I personally wish I had went this way before buying all those SCART cables. Too late now... oh well

HD-15 is the way to go - decent cables are so cheap, as are switches. The port is smaller, and you have the added benefit of compatibility with most projectors. A surprising number of them will take SCART-style RGB over the VGA port.

The advantage of the Extron switcher is that audio is switched as well, which is the advantage a typical SCART setup would otherwise have.

[Einzelherz]

Just ask your RGB cables provider, like retro_console_accessories, to wire your console cables for HD-15 instead of SCART

I think you're missing the point Guspaz is making.

These cables are for people who don't want/care about complex "perfect" output. It's for people who still have their SNES/Gen/whatever and have composite as their only realistic option. So to Joe Sixpack who used to play Super Mario World in the 90s who now has a four year old, he can spend $40 and play it on his 55" tv and it will look pretty good.

And even though Guspaz fell for the baiting, the same Joe Sixpack doesn't care whatsoever about coax/optical/dac audio. He sees that the cable has RGBRW cables that magically match up to the same ports on his TV, the same exact ports he's used occasionally over the past fifteen years. If he wants a switch, he'll get the same cheap mechanical one I use that works just fine on analog signals.

[leonk]

Einzelherz: I think we already established that these cables are primarily made for CRT TV's with component input.

Joe six-pack threw away his CRT TV when he purchased his 55" LCD TV from Walmart on boxing day. I'm pretty sure that 55" TV (like many others) will not accept 240p component. And if it does, it will pretty much treat it like composite (mangle and blow up the image to look like crap)

[leonk]

The advantage of the Extron switcher is that audio is switched as well, which is the advantage a typical SCART setup would otherwise have.

Audio over HD-15 (VGA) I don't believe is a standard. What pins will you feed the audio on? The other advantage of SCART is that fugly huge connector is extra space to add components that might be required:

- csync booster for genesis
- sync stripper for Turbo Duo
- caps and resistors for other consoles that require it

[bobrocks95]

The advantage of the Extron switcher is that audio is switched as well, which is the advantage a typical SCART setup would otherwise have.

Audio over HD-15 (VGA) I don't believe is a standard. What pins will you feed the audio on? The other advantage of SCART is that fugly huge connector is extra space to add components that might be required:

- csync booster for genesis
- sync stripper for Turbo Duo
- caps and resistors for other consoles that require it

My Extron VGA switch has 3.5mm jacks for audio. I ordered VGA cables from retro_console_accessories that have a DSUB connector for video and a separately-run 3.5mm connector for audio to cut down a bit on cross-talk.

The PS1 cable I ordered from her also has a sync stripper built-in and the other cables of course have whatever caps and resistors are necessary. I don't know how busy things are inside the plug, but it seems it's possible to fit it all.

[FinalBaton]

Einzelherz: I think we already established that these cables are primarily made for CRT TV's with component input.

Joe six-pack threw away his CRT TV when he purchased his 55" LCD TV from Walmart on boxing day. I'm pretty sure that 55" TV (like many others) will not accept 240p component. And if it does, it will pretty much treat it like composite (mangle and blow up the image to look like crap)

thank you. my thoughts, exactly.

Einzelherz: As I stated clearly on the previous page, I believe that the HD Retrovision is a nice product for people who plan on hooking up 1 console or 2 on a CRT with component inputs.

[BONKERS]

I doubt this will end up working well with many LCDs honestly. The documented number of TVs that handle it as it should are slim it seems.

It should be great for those of us using Component only CRTs though. I eagerly await them. Means I potentially don't have to hack in Component Jacks for my GPM-02 and use a transcoder anymore for my MD.

Or hack my TV to accept RGB natively over fickle scart. (I know for a fact my main CRT converts everything to RGB )

And I want to say, I very much doubt there will be a significant difference between Retrovision's Component output at the end of the chain vs RGB with a transcoder.
Feel free to do a complete technical comparison though. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[neorichieb1971]

I doubt this will end up working well with many LCDs honestly. The documented number of TVs that handle it as it should are slim it seems.

It should be great for those of us using Component only CRTs though. I eagerly await them. Means I potentially don't have to hack in Component Jacks for my GPM-02 and use a transcoder anymore for my MD.

Or hack my TV to accept RGB natively over fickle scart. (I know for a fact my main CRT converts everything to RGB )

And I want to say, I very much doubt there will be a significant difference between Retrovision's Component output at the end of the chain vs RGB with a transcoder.
Feel free to do a complete technical comparison though. I'd love to be proven wrong.

It says on the website that a future product called the HDMIzer is going to be made to marry with the cables. It should have some sort of upscaling capabilities to at least 480p. It should work well as a cheaper option for those people who don't want to pay excessive amounts on electronics.

To be honest I am in the camp that says getting the best video should cost $30-$50, not anywhere near what some of you are paying. Not to mention it requires a dedicated space for all those monitors/cables/upscaling boxes. The other thing that bothers me is that a lot of the solutions some of you are using you are getting products from different places. You get a cable from ebay (or get parts), you buy an upscaler from place X, you buy an old monitor from Craigslist and somehow you join up the dots. Some of the time there is an element of experimentation going on so you may have to try 3 products before one works. Its just easier getting one solution from one place and calling it a day.

[leonk]

Good luck getting RGB or component for only $50 out of NES, TurboGrafx-16 or N64.

Sometimes, the consoles just need to be modded to unlock their full potential. These cables are just a stepping stone from those consoles that already output RGB (i.e. the easy to do consoles).

[Guspaz]

TG16 sort of already has its own mod-free RGB output option... and since it uses the Sega Genesis model 2 connector for RGB, the HD Retrovision cables would work fine with that.

That's an added $65 cost to the TG16, although it's still plug-and-play with no externally powered components.

[neorichieb1971]

I just get the impression some of you seem a bit snobbish that if you don't have the absolute best solution its not good enough.

If you break down what people on this forum have done to get the best 240p on their TV's -

1) Bought cables from all around the world, or made them up themselves
2) Bought 20-25 year old PVM's that may or may not give a good picture even with the best cables due to age
3) Took a degree in soldering, sync stripping and modding
4) Bought Japanese upscaling boxes that cost hundreds of $$$$ only to find some (albeit a few) titles still present problems, then you need to write scripts or something , buy an overlap for the remote and change the language to English, and buy a scart converter.


If your like me, that seems like a alot of work.. and we are talking about some consoles that are older than the average poster on here. Which could go wrong any day.

[leonk]

TG16 sort of already has its own mod-free RGB output option... and since it uses the Sega Genesis model 2 connector for RGB, the HD Retrovision cables would work fine with that.

That's an added $65 cost to the TG16, although it's still plug-and-play with no externally powered components.

Care to share?

I was also referring to the original comment of not paying more than $50. After shipping, cost of getting component out of TG16 still pushes $100.

I just get the impression some of you seem a bit snobbish that if you don't have the absolute best solution its not good enough.

You do understand this is a hobby, right? A cheap hobby at that!! Talk to audiophiles or videophiles how much they spend on gear to get a new perspective on trying to get "the best" out of audio/video and at what cost.

XRGB-mini costs less than what some people pay for HDMI cable!!!

[neorichieb1971]

A hobby is supposed to be fun. In all the indulgences of getting truest RGB possible on a HDTV or PVM that I've had has resulted in an expensive dream that never really materialized. Yet.

I am sort of tinkering with the idea of getting a framemeister. But its down the road and I'd rather go for a cheaper solution.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

TG16 sort of already has its own mod-free RGB output option... and since it uses the Sega Genesis model 2 connector for RGB, the HD Retrovision cables would work fine with that.

That's an added $65 cost to the TG16, although it's still plug-and-play with no externally powered components.

Care to share?

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/

Made by a fellow Canuck to boot, and a really good guy too!

[Guspaz]

Care to share?

I was also referring to the original comment of not paying more than $50. After shipping, cost of getting component out of TG16 still pushes $100.

Errm, the booster isn't exactly a secret or anything...

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/

There's also a simpler solution where you can buy an RGB SCART cable that just plugs directly into the expansion port, which isn't all that different of an idea than, say, a SNES RGB SCART cable.

The TG16 outputs native RGB on the expansion port, so internal RGB mods seem a bit pointless unless you've got the CD add-on or something.

[leonk]

Guspaz, I've done a lot of TG16, TurboDuo, PCE RGB mods .. my experience is that the expansion port solution isn't optimal and why you still need to open the TG16:

- The expansion port cover needs to be off to be useful. An internal mod replaces the RF only port with a mini-DIN (genesis 2 9 pin is most useful) cosmetically it's nicer / stock looking. You don't have an exposed PCB or wires sticking out the back.
- Most people don't know this (because the NEC schematics are wrong!) but the audio out from the expansion port is not amplified! The guy who made the booster seems to know this - that's why he amplifies the audio. People doing their own hack jobs don't and wonder why their audio is so low. Internal mods (like Tim W's AV-Driver) include an audio amp
- NEC consoles require RGB amp to hit the 0.7v pp that a lot of RGB displays require; otherwise too dim. Again, booster does it. Direct plugs don't
- NEC consoles require 2 capacitors to be replaced internally to remove jailbars from RGB video signal. You need to get into the console!
- booster out of stock (?)

Again, we are comparing "good enough" to "best". Each person has their own preference and budget. When customers ask me for "best", RGB amp, combined with audio amp, and jailbar capacitor correction is the solution I believe is "optimal" because of the above reasons.

[Guspaz]

The direct SCART cable has an amp in it, I believe, but it's true that it won't help with jailbars.