Differences in genre approaches (stg vs non-stg)

[qmish]

I was trying to think about that lately. Shmups (and close genres) vs. some other game genres which are dominant now...
So far, i wanted to point at two things:

A:

- in "usual games" you have many many levels which you complete either without changes of how you play them or slowly ascending "curve of difficulty". After completing game, it's done. Also, saves/pauses between "game sessions".
- in shmups you play over and over and over until you git gud and can play them not dying in one approach. After that you can go further and play for score up to infinity. So instead progressing through "many many levels" it's player's skill which progresses.

B:

- New shmup games keep in mind that you played their predecessors, so they are harder and more complex. It's pretty common that you need to make your own way from shmups to shmups.
- "Other games" usually aim at widest audience so go figure.

So, am i got it right or wrong? (after all, i'm still pretty new to all of this)
And how much this stuff impacts shmup and other genres' role in eyes of gaming communities?

[Shepardus]

I don't think the second point is on the mark - pretty much any long-running series of games is going to gradually introduce more and more features to keep longtime fans coming back for more. I get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff to do in many games. Even single games can suffer from this if they're updated repeatedly over a long period of time (most notably F2P games such as Warframe, Dota, League of Legends, Path of Exile, etc.). I was recently watching a video by Totalbiscuit on Warframe; one of his primary criticisms is that the new player experience is really overwhelming, and I think he was spot-on with that observation. Over the years Warframe's added and reworked many many systems, like the movement system, the melee system, the Archwing system, the factions or whatever they're called, etc., and even though I had already played the game before, when I briefly returned to the game around the Archwing update I found it really difficult to keep up with everything that had changed in the time I was gone. That didn't entirely turn me off from the game, though (performance issues on my laptop were what did it for me), and it also hasn't stopped Warframe from being one of the most consistently played games on Steam. Same with Dota, that game's got over a hundred different heroes with different stats and abilities, dozens of items, and is a nightmare to learn, but despite this it's absurdly popular and new players are coming in all the time.

Simply being complex doesn't doom a game to obscurity. If anything, even relatively complex shmups are still simple and approachable compared to many other games. I'd wager that most gamers aren't even aware of the complexity, and depth (a separate thing from complexity), that's present in shmups - they just see the basic mechanics and think "okay, you shoot stuff and you dodge stuff, memorize this and/or dodge some rain and that's all there is to this." That perceived simplicity might actually turn some people away. I know I played Touhou for years while being only vaguely aware that there was a scoring system at all.

It is important, however, for said complexity to still be approachable, for there to be clear and achievable intermediate goals for the player to strive for to get better. Learning one hero at a time in Dota is an example of this (League of Legends actually enforces this by forcing you to unlock champions), as is pretty much any class system in any MMORPG or FPS. Lower difficulty modes, or shooting for a 1CC before trying to score, or having the game broken down into separately practicable stages, are some ways shmups have tackled this, but sadly these attempts are usually ignored by people who come across the games because "LOL THEY'RE HARD" and rush straight into Lunatic.

Regarding point A, there is some truth to this but it's muddied by the existence of multiplayer games as well as the resurgence of roguelike philosophy, and even further muddied by the "roguelite" approach of putting progression/unlock systems in otherwise session-based games, whether they be singleplayer or multiplayer. Some shmups have even experimented with unlock systems to keep players interested and striving for different goals, trying out characters they wouldn't have otherwise touched, etc.

[Squire Grooktook]

Certain games have approaches similar to the "gauntlet"-like nature of a 1cc. Fire Emblem has 30-60 minute missions in which you cannot save your progress and one wrong move is a game over. Completing these missions has a similar feel. Same for Dark Souls and its related games with the lengthy amount of time between some checkpoints.

[qmish]

Not sure if Souls is right example as it gives you indefinite restart from checkpoint with saving acquired items and actions you made on level.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah but you still gotta make it from one checkpoint to the next. There's a similar sense of building tension as you progress through stages and boss fights, where you don't want to die and have to restart it all from the beginning. It goes back to the length of restart time and punishment for failure.

You only keep items though. Your exp/currency is lost when you die (unless you can retrieve it on next run).

[AxelMill]

Yeah but you still gotta make it from one checkpoint to the next. There's a similar sense of building tension as you progress through stages and boss fights, where you don't want to die and have to restart it all from the beginning. It goes back to the length of restart time and punishment for failure.

You only keep items though. Your exp/currency is lost when you die (unless you can retrieve it on next run).

So it's ok to credit-feed through a checkpoint-based shmup? It doesn't count as a clear, of course, but it still takes actual effort compared to the other ones.

[PowerofElsydeon]

I ve only gained admiration for stgs very recently
I ve recently bougth Gradius and Twinbee deluxe packs on the Saturn
STG´s and árcade games in general are suposed to be based on adrenaline and are suposed to have heavy difficulty so beating one is a real acomplishment
I haven t got close to beat Gradius II and Dettana Twinbee yet but that s why I love em I have to try over and over to earn the 1cc acomplishment

Platformers for exemple are suposed to be apealing and fun
I bougth Vectorman and it s very fun with its run n gun gameplay and gorgeus with it s DK grafx
But Sadly I beat it in my second try
Even tough it was worth the 15 euros
Im better served when I get STG's

Here you have your comparison

[Doctor Butler]

^ All this

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah but you still gotta make it from one checkpoint to the next. There's a similar sense of building tension as you progress through stages and boss fights, where you don't want to die and have to restart it all from the beginning. It goes back to the length of restart time and punishment for failure.

You only keep items though. Your exp/currency is lost when you die (unless you can retrieve it on next run).

So it's ok to credit-feed through a checkpoint-based shmup? It doesn't count as a clear, of course, but it still takes actual effort compared to the other ones.

It's okay to do whatever. Most people just find it boring because of the lack of penalty for failure. Some Souls checkpoints can be like 15-20 minutes long, which is a similar level of tension compared to most stg's. I don't personally like shorter checkpoints because I don't get a sense of tension out of them.

[qmish]

Yet most people among gamers choose "more content" over "more tension"
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... tSoItSucks

[BIL]

STG is just like any other performance-focused genre.

You perform.

Or you GTFO. ;3

All else is vanity... ¦3

♫

[Bananamatic]

Some Souls checkpoints can be like 15-20 minutes long, which is a similar level of tension compared to most stg's. I don't personally like shorter checkpoints because I don't get a sense of tension out of them.

maybe the first time when you're looting everything, you can easily run between bonfires in a minute or two

[Squire Grooktook]

True. Demon's Souls has a lot longer checkpoints though IIRC. And some boss fights can be pretty length depending on your playstyle/goals.