Getting into Shmups for real - how to?

[siemien]

Problem with importing games like Mushi HD for x360 is that I would pay 3-4x the price you pay, which is bloody expensive. Price tag is the only problem with me. I like Mushihimesama, played it on PS2 port (pirated obviously) and on mame with some slowdowns.

[Xyga]

Well Mushi HD is on Steam, so that one is not a problem (Matsuri pack at 14,94€).

[siemien]

But other games from Cave? Do people really buy games like Musha for Genesis (200-300$)? Or some other insane expensive shmups? My biggest question is "when using Mame is not enough to play shmups, so I need to buy X360?" If I fall in love with genre than I'll will buy it (in my country it's very cheap. I can get it already modded to play pirated copies if I cant afford something.

[charlie chong]

just install mame and play some other good games that aren't the cv1000 cave stuff.too many fairies in them anyway

[gray117]

Sure collectors do (musha usa rare version, jap version bit cheaper) ... or wii virtual console version $8 for if you want to play it /show your support for the title.
(After all doesn't really matter how much you pay for 2nd hand version - current ip holder/developer not going to see any of it).

If you get into it then you can at least make some more informed choices about what you want to i) spend your time with and ii) hopefully support as legitimately as possible.

Example perhaps being; even if you rather play your copied ps2 mushi rather than playing on pc do perhaps consider buying the steam version.

[Xyga]

But other games from Cave? Do people really buy games like Musha for Genesis (200-300$)? Or some other insane expensive shmups? My biggest question is "when using Mame is not enough to play shmups, so I need to buy X360?" If I fall in love with genre than I'll will buy it (in my country it's very cheap. I can get it already modded to play pirated copies if I cant afford something.

You can also wait for Cave and editor Degica to port more CV1000 shmups to Steam, next one coming this spring is Deathsmiles, and I'd bet more will come, in time maybe the entire 360 library if things go well.

Until then you have quite bit of games you can play, in regards to MAME and Cave that also includes PGM titles like Ketsui and DDP DaiOuJou Black Label, two of the best they have ever created. Just those two could keep you busy for years (don't be afraid Ketsui isn't that hard, and it's pure pleasure).

Then for consoles you have two options: emulators of course, or byuing the real consoles along with EVERDRIVE flash carts: http://shop.krikzz.com/
Buying the most expensive console games today doesn't make sense, stupid speculation and fetishism have made prices absurd.

PS: and yeah gray is right, there's the Wii VC too.

[siemien]

What's with all these 1.5 and black labels? It means harder or what?

[gray117]

... version numbers generally relate to bug fixes.

Black labels are typically kind of tuned versions. Often actually a bit more accessible, but google or the search function on this forum will be you friend for more info.

Although updates ended in 2008 you might enjoy this site to help get you familiar with some shmup staples:
http://www.world-of-arcades.net/

[siemien]

In your opinion what is the best stick for shmups in therms of part? I use JLF and it has a bloody long throw which I find bad, because reaction time is a lot longer...

[qmish]

Can you speak more about that "input lag"? Is it possible that i never notice it because i'm slowpoke pokemon (i was thinking about it because i'm too slow in fighting game to recognize opponent's move and counter it in 20 frame (one third of second?) lapse or smth); though i was also kind of musician with guitar and synth so eh... either you are superhumans or else

[Strikers1945guy]

I would jump in with mame and decide what style of shmups you like most.

Horizontal or vertical
Crazy dense bullet patters that move slowly - cave
Super fast bullets - psikyo
Amazingly difficult to master scoring systems where every run is completely different and the difficulty goes up when the player is playing well (rank) - raizing
Old school feel - I'm really lumping a shit load of games together here but try some classics like Sky Shark, Musha, gradius, etc.

Once you get a feel for what you like, see what console has some ports of the kind of shmup you prefer. Every console will have very expensive stuff but if you do some research many have amazing ports of amazing games that are still very affordable.

Also some people like me will buy very expensive stuff but are not collectors. I just like to play the games I love on their original hardware with every detail as it was intended. Before it gets ported missing features or the slowdown is wrong or their is no arcade mode but you get shitty "HD" graphics.

Or you could just get Pink Sweets, play it forever, die happy

[d0s]

In your opinion what is the best stick for shmups in therms of part? I use JLF and it has a bloody long throw which I find bad, because reaction time is a lot longer...

I use a Seimitsu LS-32 in my PC/360 stick and it's great. To answer your earlier question about buying games, lots of people use things like everdrives to play expensive games on native hardware.

[Squire Grooktook]

But other games from Cave? Do people really buy games like Musha for Genesis (200-300$)? Or some other insane expensive shmups?

I ordered a number of Cave games (Mushi Futari, Esp Galuda, and Dodonpachi SOJ) via PlayAsia, and each was about 60 dollars. Pretty pricey, but affordable I guess.

You could probably get them for less if you used the trading station or something?

Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with over-priced stuff on ebay. Some of those games are classics, but unless you're a serious collector, it's not worth putting yourself in the poor house when you could just play them via emulation.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I own a 21,5" 16:9 lcd and dont have pivot rotation, so I play all shmups on auto aspect and stuff.

If you, by any chance, haven't kept a CRT, getting one or two (RGB for TV) would be how I'd recommend spending money first. Input lag and tate matters aside, low resolutions* look awful on LCD.

*) As low as 240p in many shmups' cases.

[Bananamatic]

i think i picked up futari for $20 a year ago and the PAL versions of dfk, deathsmiles and akai katana are super cheap by now too

honestly i'd just tell you to not spend anything, play what works well on mame+the steam ports and wait for what gets released on steam in the next year or two
there's already enough good stuff on pc to last you for the rest of your life

[Xyga]

In your opinion what is the best stick for shmups in therms of part? I use JLF and it has a bloody long throw which I find bad, because reaction time is a lot longer...

I use a Seimitsu LS-32 in my PC/360 stick and it's great.

LS-56 or LS-58 with octogonal gate is also quite popular, even tighter than the LS-32.

[siemien]

Learning the game, getting the movement right and stuff can be learned from playing again and again and again, but how you know where to go to dodge bullets? How to notice the best option at this point where to move? I'm playing Ketsui right now and 8/10 I can get throught stage 1 without getting hit, but in stage 2 I find that everywhere I go there are bullets all over me...

[Obiwanshinobi]

Learning the game, getting the movement right and stuff can be learned from playing again and again and again, but how you know where to go to dodge bullets? How to notice the best option at this point where to move? I'm playing Ketsui right now and 8/10 I can get throught stage 1 without getting hit, but in stage 2 I find that everywhere I go there are bullets all over me...

Quoted for posterity. Not that I know.

[AxelMill]

Learning the game, getting the movement right and stuff can be learned from playing again and again and again, but how you know where to go to dodge bullets? How to notice the best option at this point where to move? I'm playing Ketsui right now and 8/10 I can get throught stage 1 without getting hit, but in stage 2 I find that everywhere I go there are bullets all over me...

Videos are your best bet. Not superplays, as they sometimes perform highly risky things that you'd never want/be able (unless you practice hundreds of hours) to do, but simple 1CCs.
Either that, or trial and error. If you're playing on an emulator, use save states during the hardest parts, and practice on those as many times as you need, until you're able to say "Now let's do it for real".

I'm a dirty casual, so take this with a grain of salt.
Still a more reliable post than the Cave Mameui one. I hope.

[Xyga]

Herd swarms bullets to the sides, either quickly then you move to the opposite side that is mostly free, or you make them follow you moving slowly from one side to the other.
That's one of the techniques to clear the way. Of course the game esxpects you to do exactly that and will try to 'trap' you where you think is safe.
Each level has 'paths' you can learn to build.

[charlie chong]

the most basic beginner pattern that helps you survive in vert shooters is moving up toward a side from the midde then moving from side to side in a horseshoe type motion trying to lead bullets off away from you.

[Shepardus]

First of all, Ketsui's second stage is pretty tough compared to many other second stages. Ketsui spawns a lot of enemies, many of which have a fair bit of HP, so it's important to remember where the major enemies will appear so you can shoot them down before you get flooded by everything swarming onto the screen. The difference between keeping up and being even slightly behind is quite substantial - if you fall behind the pace you will die or be forced to bomb, as you won't have time to finish off a large enemy and it'll get in the way as you try to kill other enemies, etc.

Anticipating where enemies will appear will also help with herding bullets as Xyga mentioned. Many bullets in many shooting games, not just Ketsui, are aimed based on your position (either directly at or roughly around you), so if you're moving all over the place the bullets will fly everywhere, while if you're making a clean sweep from one side to the other the bullets will fall harmlessly behind you. If you don't know where the enemies are going to appear, however, you're going to be caught by surprise and will have to dash all over the place to catch them, creating a big mess of bullets that will likely kill you. So figure out where the major enemies will appear, and either be right under them ready to kill them quickly or have a plan to move across to them smoothly (probably killing a bunch of other enemies in the process).

If you're not familiar with the scoring system, I would recommend learning how that works, as that can help you understand how enemies are meant to be grouped together and give you a better sense of the flow of the stages.

[siemien]

Practice makes perfect and it is. I played Ketusi and made stage 1 flawlessly with around 3,5 mill of score But on second run I got killed twice...

[donluca]

honestly i'd just tell you to not spend anything, play what works well on mame+the steam ports and wait for what gets released on steam in the next year or two
there's already enough good stuff on pc to last you for the rest of your life

I second this.

[Astraea FGA Mk. I]

You have nice stuff! Your PC and arcade stick can do great things. So don't spend any money until you know if it is worth it.
This hobby can get very complicated very quickly (which becomes half the fun) but since you are beginning I have an idea!
Spend a day trying a lot of different games everything that has been suggested here, then at the end of the day pick your favourite. Focus only on that game develop your skill and get really good at it. You will find out if you like the genre

[Dazzyman]

Buy a saturn and collect gaming heaven
Buy a jpn 360 and collect gaming heaven lol

[siemien]

I was thinking about buying ntsc-j x360 in future. How much I would have to pay for it? Also, are all shmups games available to purchase from JPN xbox store even if I live in Europe?

[HydrogLox]

Unless you have "extra" money to burn and have a fetish for physical media (like many of us) forget about an NTSC-J Sega Saturn or Xbox 360 - unfortunately prices continue to escalate. If your PC is decent enough Steam should keep you busy for a while (and supports the active remnant of the industry); here is an excerpt just from my library:

• ALLTYNEX Second
• Astebreed
• Crimzon Clover WORLD IGNITION
• DARIUSBURST Chronicle Saviours
• DELTAZEAL
• ESCHATOS
• ETHER VAPOR Remaster
• Ikaruga
• Jamestown
• JUDGEMENT SILVERSWORD -Resurrection-
• KAMUI
• Mushihimesama
• Raiden III Digital Edition
• Raiden IV: Overkill
• Redux: Dark Matters
• RefleX
• Revolver360 RE:ACTOR
• SATAZIUS
• Strania - The Stella Machina -
• Supercharged Robot VULKAISER
• XIIZEAL

Pick'em up during the various sales - a handful of them are available DRM-free through vendors like GOG.com, Playism and nyu-Media.

That being said, if there is PS3 in your future pick up a copy of "PS3 Ketsui Kizuna Jigoku Tachi EXTRA" and "PS3 Under Defeat HD Deluxe Edition" sooner rather than later before the prices go nuts on them - the same has to be said for the disc releases of region-free STGs that you can run on a "domestic" Xbox 360 (fyi: DoDonPachi Resurrection: Deluxe Edition works on both PAL and NTSC-U consoles).

Edit: corrected DARIUSBURST URL.

[Bananamatic]

ntsc-j 360 has basically dick all now
almost everything noteworthy is region free or on pc (well emulated or ported)

[siemien]

I've just tested "DARIUSBURST Chronicle Saviours" on my PC and it runs stable 60 fps in full HD without any problem Guess all other games listed before will run smooth as well