Revision 8 N64 = better RGB?

[andykara2003]

The possibility that the 'funtastic' N64s, (i.e. the range of coloured transparent N64s) have either better composite video, better s-video or both has been discussed here and there in various forums over the last few years. This discussion has typically been pretty wooly in general with lots of misinformation, conflicting results and wrong assumptions made about various things. Here's one thread that has discussed it at length:

http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Fo ... 7363768/1/

The one point at least that seems to have been well established is that the composite output from both the PAL and NTSC funtastic N64s has a different quality to the image to the earlier models. Whether it's better or not is subjective and the comparison images shown aren't great - but it's clear that the funtastic model's images definitely look more aliased, as if it the hardware antialiasing has been toned down or removed. If that's the case, perhaps there might be some improvement in the more blurry games where AA was poorly implemented. A couple of these funtastic models don't appear to have this quality & after a little research, I found that it's actually the revision 8 consoles that have this 'sharper' output (of which most of the funtastics are), rather than the funtastics specifically. This revision is, in a sense, the last revision (the very last revision, 9, was just cobbled together parts from previous revisions).

Anyway, the point where the discussion tends to get wooly is whether s-video from these consoles have an improved/different s-video output as well. Some say that the NTSC funtastics have a better output via s-video, some that there is no difference. They are all using different TVs which throws more uncertainty into the mix - and the potential differences in s-video qualities will be harder to define when using small TVs for example. The main admin on the site is quite passionate about this & is adamant that there is a clear difference in the s-video compared to his earlier console (both NTSC).

Either way, I use RGB with my PAL & NTSC N64s so my interests lie there, rather than with s-video or composite. (I have Marshall's excellent UltraHDMI mod but prefer RGB+CRT). As to using RGB with the rev. 8's compared to the other revisions, there seems to be no information anywhere. As most people here will know, these revision 8's will need the more modern RGB mods such as Viletims DAC or the 'RGB for all' mod. My personal interest is whether the RGB signal from either the RGB modded PAL or NTSC revision 8 N64s (or both) using these later mods have a corresponding 'improvement' or difference in image quality over the traditional RGB modded N64, i.e. the pre-revision 5 with THS7314 amp. I know that, in themselves, these newer mods have exactly the same image as the older THS-7314 mod (I have both and Viletim has also confirmed this), so any image differences between the RGB modded rev. 8's and other RGB modded N64s would have to be purely down to other aspects of the revision 8's internal hardware.

Last year, I did some research on this, talked to some fairly knowledgable people and concluded that there would be no improvement when using RGB with the revision 8's as the mod/s that need to be used with this revision replace/bypass the N64's original DAC. Now I'm not so sure, though. I'm wondering if the difference in the Rev. 8's image isn't actually anything to do with the DAC - and Nintendo did, in fact, revise or remove the hardware anti aliasing with this revision - either to save money or improve the image.

Does anyone have any definitive answers to this?



PS. Currently, there's been some very interesting developments in disabling the N64's software AA using Gameshark codes:

http://assemblergames.com/l/threads/is- ... ats.59916/

I have a GS coming & am excited to try this - but I believe this is a different issue/avenue to my question, which is hardware related rather than based in software.

[Fudoh]

I would expect that the different quality in composite/s-video derives from the video encoder IC and has nothing to do with the actual source signal (meaning that a RGB mod would show the same results).

[andykara2003]

Cheers, this was my initial conclusion & I think must be the most likely scenario as those mods takes the video straight from the RPC, bypassing the DAC/encoder. I am still curious, though, as to where the hardware antialiasing takes place in the N64. Is it possible that it takes place within the RPC, before it gets to the DAC/encoder unit? If so, could there be a possibility that there could have been minor changes to the RPC at this late stage in the console's life cycle, resulting in reduced AA?

[RGB32E]

Perhaps you could ask Tim or Marshall if they noticed any electrical differences between the RCPs used in different revisions. In any case, I've installed the UltraHDMI on revs 4, 5, 6, and 8, and haven't noticed any differences in video quality with or without VI de-blur. Remember that the RCP always outputs 640 pixels wide, regardless of native/rendering resolution, so one should make the distinction between RCP blur/interpolation, and various anti-aliasing/screen filter techniques used by game software. I do wonder if there are enough resources on the N64RGB do perform a VI de-blur! However, logic to read controller input for switching, or a button wired to the console would have to be added, which would require a new revision. A FFC cable for the N64RGB would make installs much easier on rev 5 systems and up! Then again, one could always make an adapter for the UltraHDMI FFC so it could interface with the N64RGB...

[bobrocks95]

Those Gameshark codes seem much more promising than a specific revision having better RGB quality. They do seem a bit like they're guessing and checking though rather than fully understanding the codes (and there aren't many NTSC codes either).

[andykara2003]

Marshall confirms what we suspected:

"The RCP / VI output that goes into any DAC will always be the same, regardless of the motherboard. All N64s have the same RCP silicon. So you will get the same result no matter what N64 you install eviltim's dac onto.

The difference in video output comes from the DAC, which you are bypassing/installing your own with the mod."

Well that puts that one to rest!


@bobrocks95 - Vey much looking forward to trying out these codes. Hopefully the investigations will continue until a deeper understanding is reached and a more comprehensive range of codes are available. It seems that at least some games can have the filter/s removed to varying degrees; the holy grail for me would be able to set the specific sharpness of the individual games so that the fog is somewhat lifted, but not so much that they look over-pixelated like Playstation games..

[bobrocks95]

@bobrocks95 - Vey much looking forward to trying out these codes. Hopefully the investigations will continue until a deeper understanding is reached and a more comprehensive range of codes are available. It seems that at least some games can have the filter/s removed to varying degrees; the holy grail for me would be able to set the specific sharpness of the individual games so that the fog is somewhat lifted, but not so much that they look over-pixelated like Playstation games..

Yeah hopefully. Right now it's just "If I increase this one number by 1, it looks like it gets a bit sharper!" which is an easy rut to fall into and not actually know what the codes are doing. Reports of crashing in OoT are especially bad imo, though I read the thread earlier in the day and don't remember if that was from a region mis-match or not.

[FBX]

but not so much that they look over-pixelated like Playstation games..

I love the PS1's sharp pixel look. Looks fantastic on 2D games like SotN, and even semi-3D games like Tempest X.

If there is such a code for the N64, I'd want maximum sharpness at least available as an option.

[mikejmoffitt]

I'd like to find something to disable the horizontal blur on Super Smash Bros. 64 as well.