From Software 'n such

[Blinge]

So I borrowed King's Field (KF2 japan). It was sat on my shelf while I worked through the DS2 DLC but eventually I cracked and started playing.

This isn't nearly as clunky and slow as gameplay videos had led me to believe. I mean it's still slow, but the vid I watched didn't showcase the ability to run or strafe very well. It's a solid game, enjoying this is pushing my From fanboy level through the roof I'm sure.

I'd got graph paper handy and everything; ready to map out the game but so far, despite repeating textures I haven't found myself lost. This is probably a credit to the level design, there'll be a slightly different alcove here and there or a skeleton on the floor that allows me to remember places I've been. Hopefully I can get some MP soon, I've had 0 magic for the past two hours.

I haven't noticed the lonely feel of the game so much as how interior it is. Obviously hardware limitations etc. It's really strange to go through a series of corridors and rooms, lower a bridge, fight a dude, then see writing on the wall saying "north village." Suddenly a couple of huts and a glimpse of sky before heading back inside. Oddly enough the only feeling like it for me was a Minecraft challenge map called Kaizo Kaverns that took place entirely underground. "3D metroidvania" comes to mind, but I use the term VERY loosely.

[Strider77]

Metal Wolf Chaos....

[kid aphex]

Ninja Blade <3

[Strider77]

I think I'll play through ninja blade as a matter of fact....

[Blinge]

Time for some 'games journalism'

http://kotaku.com/the-demons-souls-trol ... 1691764441
tl;dr Kotaku streamer gets consistently invaded by a viewer, victim narrative ensues.

I find this whining hilarious, it's the inherent risk of broadcasting your game experience. Also damn magic users had it coming.
Edit: that's not even demon souls' in the picture. it's Dark. ffs

Meanwhile King's Field continues to impress me. I've probably missed a bunch of important keys/items somewhere however. 1 on 1 combat has been trivialised by slashing, firing a spell as my stamina regens, repeat; even the biggest enemies are stunlocked by this combo, enabling me to circle strafe them and almost never get hit. I met a boss chap called necron who fought me in an actual arena, instantly went into panic mode and used the same tactic. Now he's dead I wish I hadn't done that, I only got to see a couple of his attacks.

[Blinge]

YOU REVIVED

I recently beat Lost Kingdoms II, or reached the end of the story at least.
Overall I'd say the game is about even with LKI. I was just gonna write a few thoughts but somehow a ramble came out.

It's that low budget old Fromsoft goodness. LKI had more of that desolate atmosphere I crave while II gets a bit too colourful at times.
I can forgive this splash of colour as they were going for a lighter feel than their other fantasy fare; with cards forming your arsenal for battle and female fixed protagonists.
A key factor in story and environments is that events occur while you are present in II, like when Tara must fight her way into a besieged castle. In the first game Katia seems to turn up after everything's happened, which usually means trudging around ruins.

LKI had a better feel, I'm not sure exactly why that is. Maybe it's the better framerate, looks like 60 on real hardware. Whereas II runs at 30 or maybe lower at certain points.
Exploration is more of a factor in II: with slightly more freedom from the world map, the ability to always re-enter most areas. A lower down camera perspective allowing you to see the horizon and switch back to top-down view with one flick of the C-stick. Certain cards allow you to transform and reach new areas/overcome obstacles - giving you incentive to retrace old areas to reach new levels or chests you'd seen before.

While this is a welcome addition it means you have to spend quite some time fucking around in menus between levels sorting out your cards to bring whatever abilities you'll need. This faffing is compounded by the card combos available for fights: using certain cards at the same time allows you to perform special attacks. This means you'll have to choose these cards for your deck and maybe carry cards that are useless until combined, so you'll be constantly cycling your deck on the field until the right cards are in your hand. Consequently I didn't bother with any combos other than a 2 card healing combo for dire situations; I wanted to play the damn game.

LKII added a lock on system for easier targeting. It blows and is unnecessary I think, especially if you're using the top-down view for a fight. Get this: you lock on by pressing C-up, and unlock with C-down. These are the same controls for changing the camera perspective, also panning the camera is C-right/left. So you're constantly locking on accidentally when you just wanna adjust the camera

The story was entertaining for most of the game: with the kingdom of Kendarie on the warpath and invading the other Kingdoms (which are no longer Lost). However towards the end the attempts to tell story via cutscenes fall flat in my opinion, has this ever been done well by FromSoft? In LKII it's cheesy as hell, in a cringeworthy and not endearing way. I simply laughed it off though, the same way you'd enjoy a low budget game as 'quaint.'
The lore is pretty cool though - with the gods who created the world and how their feud has repercussions that still affect and influence the humans' struggle. The monuments and portraits of Katia from the first game also cement that lore, with LKII taking place centuries later. These portrayals of Katia are pretty, which is interesting as she was ugly as hell in LKI. I wouldn't mind playing as an ugly girl for once, but it's more likely they just failed to make an attractive character haha.

Artwork: http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/rune/art-char-01.jpg
In game: http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/los ... 1104202535

What's interesting is that Dark Souls begins with a lore dump - the world's origin. Then eventually you uncover the story of what's happening in the present. Lost Kingdoms I is the other way around, you're told what's going on in scrolling text, eventually uncovering the secret of the world's origin and its legacy.

Final boss & Denouement actually sucked.

Spoiler

A static monster in the middle of a tower with tentacle arms around the stage that allow you to get away and sit in a corner healing whenever you need to. I somehow killed it in a few hits with a card that dishes out revenge damage; I didn't realise it was so OP, it just happened to be the card I was dealt for that time and threw it out to cover my retreat..
No ending to speak of really. This wouldn't usually be a problem, but the game had tried to tell a story with characters up till this point, so why just go HAPPY END and fade to black...

There was one level with a puzzle I never solved however, and more places opened up on the map after beating the game, so there's hope for a bigger challenge yet.

A little rundown:

Lost Kingdoms I:
Smoother, feels better.
More desolate atmosphere
More of a pure experience, less bloated mechanics.
Better story, better told.
Harder - Worthy final level/boss.

Lost Kingdoms II:
More open; exploration.
No random encounters, enemies are visible and level design reflects this.
Level up system - no opinion of this really.
More dialogue, some living places to visit.
Replay value for individual areas.

Some BGM that captures the LK feel well:
Greenfoel Church
Bernden Field
LKII Boss Theme

I know some people want FromSoft to take a break from the Souls series. I do wish there was a Lost Kingdoms III, or even a King's Field V. I'd love to see what a bigger, richer From could do with these IPs with all they've learned from producing Soulsborne. I also think they've earned themselves legions of die hard fans who would give a fair chance/buy pretty much anything they release now, within reason. I want to sit by the bonfire and prepare my deck for the next adventure..
A man can dream.

[Gespenst]

Speaking of Metal Wolf Chaos
https://twitter.com/devolverdigital/sta ... 2176884736

[Obiwanshinobi]

These portrayals of Katia are pretty, which is interesting as she was ugly as hell in LKI. I wouldn't mind playing as an ugly girl for once, but it's more likely they just failed to make an attractive character haha.

Been just wondering if every NPC with fully exposed face in Demon's Souls was designed using the playable character creation kit, because I failed to create a single never mind pretty, but one I wouldn't feel sorry for myself (regardless of their age and gender).
It's a godsend that they at least spared us any facial animations (considering how disturbing Deadly Premonition can get when even better-looking models show some expression).

As for any possible follow-up to Lost Kingdoms, it would have to be downloadable (mobile even)... or a Neo Geo game to become anything but a folly.

[Blinge]

These portrayals of Katia are pretty, which is interesting as she was ugly as hell in LKI. I wouldn't mind playing as an ugly girl for once, but it's more likely they just failed to make an attractive character haha.

Been just wondering if every NPC with fully exposed face in Demon's Souls was designed using the playable character creation kit, because I failed to create a single never mind pretty, but one I wouldn't feel sorry for myself (regardless of their age and gender).
It's a godsend that they at least spared us any facial animations (considering how disturbing Deadly Premonition can get when even better-looking models show some expression).

I've made decent waifus in all souls games, my trick is to use the random generator until you get something that isn't hideous, then just tweak it a bit until they look like a passable human. It is possible..

As for any possible follow-up to Lost Kingdoms, it would have to be downloadable (mobile even)... or a Neo Geo game to become anything but a folly.

but folly*
Uhh don't know what you mean, please don't use the M word when talking about fromsoft =[.
The folly is mine however, for entertaining the tiniest hope of a sequel

[Squire Grooktook]

Thanks for the detailed write up on Lost Kingdom, Blinge. Very interesting.

About character editors. In my experience, the more powerful they are, the easier they are to fuck up and the more time that's needed to make something that looks good.

I had to spend about a week on my girl's face in Phantasy Star Online 2, in order to avoid derp-face, man-face, or uncanny valley. Still not perfect, but I'm happy with her, and a lot of other characters I see (including the official Sega made npc's) can get super derpy.

[Immryr]

anyone got any tips for an armored core noob? been playing some for answer today and I'm finding it fun - but pretty brutal.

[Imhotep]

I've played LKII during the christmas holidays and have gotten close to the end as far as I can tell. I quite liked it, though it doesn't excel in any aspect. I liked the atmosphere well enough to not put it down, the dark, eerie stages were the highlights for me.
The character acting is typical exaggerated early to mid 2000s fare, I don't mind it personally, but I definitely wouldn't include it in the Golden Record.

If From were to make a sequel I'd wish to have the real time combat strengthened. There's a lot of direct hit cards already, but no dodging/movement options whatsoever, I'd like it to have a full fledged movement engine. Of course that would take it close to Otogi or Souls, but it would still have the monster summoning, lighter fantasy world, female protagonist and a small universe contained in a card deck.

[Immryr]

ok so after playing around with AC:FA a bit more it seems make a huge difference which sponsor you pick at the start. I was initially using the second one down (interior?) and on the early mission where you need to escort a convoy of trucks I found I just didn't have enough fire power to take out the final big two enemies. I switched out my weapons a couple of times and then gave up.

I thought the obvious thing to do would be to try one of the sponsors that starts with a laser sword so I could conserve ammo. turns out I sucked with the independent AC and just got pooped on.

so I started again using the top sponsor and found that AC much easier to handle. the customisation stuff is still a bit daunting though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

These days quite a few buyers MIGHT be willing to pay for unorthodox, unheard-of-name computer trading card game... as a phone app maybe. For the sake of selling it as a console/multiplatform title, From would need to make it a Souls spin-off rather than Lost Kingdoms III [how about Lost Souls (oh...), or Souls Kingdoms?], PSO Episode III: C.A.R.D. Revolution way.

The only two such titles untied to any larger franchise I've ever heard to gain any following are Etherlords II and Baten Kaitos.
Let us not forget how budget LoK did look even for the year 2002. Is this the time and age to be peddling such level production values as a physical release? Even Nintendo have moved forward with their Wii U Mario games.

[Blinge]

Hahah, oh man.
Firstly: this is just speculation for the hell of it, I know there's less than 1% chance of ever seeing Lost Kingdoms again. I know it has tons of objective issues and that my love of the series is very subjective. This isn't an entirely serious discussion.
I am NOT suggesting that a LK3 would look like a budget gamecube game from 2003, nor am I suggesting it'd be the same game again.

LK is an action RPG, not a 'trading card game,' it doesn't fit within that genre gameplay wise. Yes, even though it has cards, shock horror!
It would probably fail as a mobile game and as far as I'm aware, From haven't ventured into mobile development before. Thank fuck.

Let us not forget how budget LoK did look even for the year 2002. Is this the time and age to be peddling such level production values as a physical release?

You sound like a politician
My dream game would have high production values, obviously. Imhotep's suggestions are spot on.

The point I made earlier is I think FromSoft's reputation is now strong enough to make most souls fans pay attention to anything they release; anything. This goes a significant way in negating the 'unorthodox, unheard of' effect.

If you want spin-off puns or taglines.. try Card Souls
(copyright Blinge. do not steal. might use that in a youtube vid soon.)

[Obiwanshinobi]

I found nothing "RPG" in Lost Kingdoms and I believe that 'Cube owners wanting their fightin' on arrival console to get any jRPG whatsoever were most disappointed having found it to be nothing of the sort.

Do FromSoftware's freshly gathered zealots even want the company to be any more than a Souls company anymore? I'm not hearing many calls for them to make another AC or Tenchu* title.

*) Names remembered by the former PlayStation kids, many of whom keep buying new games, so those wouldn't be that unheard-of yet.

Much of their supposed geek cred of late must be Ikaruga effect (as if it felt good for a while to be THE kid on the block who heard of Souls), as those comments on EVERY single TPP melee action game, no matter how far removed mechanically from it, saying how Souls did this or that better, hint at.

[Blinge]

I found nothing "RPG" in Lost Kingdoms and I believe that 'Cube owners wanting their fightin' on arrival console to get any jRPG whatsoever were most disappointed having found it to be nothing of the sort.

It's not a jRPG, no one has claimed it is. I said it's an action RPG, do you really want to debate on the finer points of that? Katia's efficacy increases as her cards gain experience. She can use that experience to transform or copy cards, increasing her arsenal and combat ability. Over time her resistance to various status elements will increase too; these are RPG elements.

I reckon you played the game for about 10 minutes (if that) before coming to conclusions. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

Do FromSoftware's freshly gathered zealots even want the company to be any more than a Souls company anymore? I'm not hearing many calls for them to make another AC or Tenchu* title.

From this thread alone:

Otogi Souls plz

i just started reading blame and I definitely agree that blame souls could be absolutely incredible.

In all seriousness though, I like the Souls series, but I can't help but feel that From Software have become a one trick pony. I would really like to see them do something new, or just reboot metal wolf chaos

A more complex Otogi would be great. I like the old ones, but kind of mixing what they have going on in Bloodborne with Otogi would be really awesome.

If they could make a more easy to get into Armored Core, that would be good. They might want to rename it, just so they can attract a new audience.

That's enough for now.

Much of their supposed geek cred of late must be Ikaruga effect (as if it felt good for a while to be THE kid on the block who heard of Souls), as those comments on EVERY single TPP melee action game, no matter how far removed mechanically from it, saying how Souls did this or that better, hint at.

Don't use internet assholes as fuel for your arguments man, they're not in this thread. People aren't saying "dis sux, souls did it better" on shmups farm. I assume you mean people are shitting on your precious Monster Hunter. Anything as popular as MH is gonna have its detractors, just as the souls series does.

"supposed geek cred."
God forbid a developer sticks to its roots and makes a good, challenging game experience that doesn't hold your hand, that dared to go against the AAA trend. People can't possibly like a game for those reasons, it must be the Ikaruga effect, or trend followers.

Hows your DeS playthrough going?

[Immryr]

I'd really love a ps4 armored core game. with both a good single player game and online multiplayer. I'm sure I'd get demolished by the people who have been playing AC games for years, but it would be great all the same.

tenchu isn't really a fromsoft game. they didn't develop any of the games afaik, just published them. I'd still be up for more tenchu games too, though.

[Obiwanshinobi]

For what it's worth, I must've played Lost Kingdoms more than Monster Hunter (didn't finish either). I'd also like to highlight the fact each player can either bring their custom-built deck to the table or agree on constructing one from a shared pool, which I believe is how Magic: The Gathering works, trading card game way.

[quash]

God forbid a developer sticks to its roots and makes a good, challenging game experience that doesn't hold your hand, that dared to go against the AAA trend. People can't possibly like a game for those reasons, it must be the Ikaruga effect, or trend followers.

Dark Souls isn't that challenging, lol. People have simply forgotten how to play games.

It's not a bad game by any means, but I had to tune out the undeserved praise and excessive hype to find for myself what I like about the game. I can dig the enemy designs and the combat is decent, if not a bit tedious. It does a good job of showing you how to play the game, and I really like that it gives the enemies similar limitations as the player's (poise, stamina, etc). Much better than Demon's Souls in this regard.

Still, I was a bit underwhelmed from beginning to end, and I am still kind of scratching my head at how it blew up. It's a notch above say Elder Scrolls, but definitely a notch below proper 3D action games. I would rather play Ninja Gaiden any day of the week.

[quash]

As for "geek cred", I actually want to tackle this subject in full at some point. The long and short of it is that illiterates desperately look for something to cling on to so they can seem much more seasoned in a genre than they actually are, and the internet enables this en masse. For fighting games, it's Third Strike. For shooters, it's Ikaruga. And now, for 3D action games*, we have Dark Souls. Not that any of these games are bad, but they have been blown massively out of proportion by a bunch of people who have vague understandings at best of the games that made these genres great.

*Some people will take issue with this classification, but really, it is a 3D action game before it's a dungeon crawler, RPG, or whatever else you want to affix to it.

[Necronopticous]

Damn bro you caught me.

[quash]

Admittance is the first step. Now you have to commit yourself to rehab from the internet's opinions and play games as much as possible. Avoid any game-related discussion until you are comfortable in your findings, then come back and report. You'll find that you won't need to discuss games anymore.

[Squire Grooktook]

Dark Souls is fairly challenging by just about any metric you care to compare it to. As hard as most of the console games of 90's for sure. Harder then Contra 1, Mega Man X, as hard as Doom, or whatever. IREM 2-all? Maybe not. But it's a tricky game that'll kill you for not reacting to things optimally or utilizing proper strategy.

It's also one of the best games I've ever played. Not my favorite for sure, but damning it with faint praise is something I'd never do. Same for Ikaruga.

[quash]

Dark Souls is fairly challenging by just about any metric you care to compare it to. As hard as most of the console games of 90's for sure. Harder then Contra 1, Mega Man X, as hard as Doom, or whatever. IREM 2-all? Maybe not. But it's a tricky game that'll kill you for not reacting to things optimally or utilizing proper strategy.

Is this really our gold standard of difficulty? More difficult than console games made 11+ years before it? Back to my original point: people forgot how to play games, and Dark Souls forced them to begin to remember.

It's also one of the best games I've ever played. Not my favorite for sure, but damning it with faint praise is something I'd never do. Same for Ikaruga.

I'm not damning it at all, it's a well made game and I don't have any serious issues with it. It's just far from the claims of "brutally difficult", "revolutionary", etc. It was simply a lone contender when it came out, and people with the attention span of a gnat blew it out of proportion.

[Squire Grooktook]

Dark Souls is fairly challenging by just about any metric you care to compare it to. As hard as most of the console games of 90's for sure. Harder then Contra 1, Mega Man X, as hard as Doom, or whatever. IREM 2-all? Maybe not. But it's a tricky game that'll kill you for not reacting to things optimally or utilizing proper strategy.

Is this really our gold standard of difficulty?

It was the mainstream when difficult games were commercially viable for a mass audience. What would you rather compare it to? Extremely niche bullet hell shooters where difficulty is variable depending on what kind of achievement you're gunning for? I like Ketsui or DOJ as much as the next guy, but even a "mere" 1-all of those games are pretty far along the difficulty spectrum.

Like I said, nobody here is arguing it's the hardest game ever. But to say it's not hard or "not very hard" is a huge stretch. If I had to put it on a scale of 1 to 10, with Kirby's Adventure being a 1 and DOJ 2-all being a 10, I'd probably give it a healthy 6 or 7. Above average difficulty for the medium, at least.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I consider Demon's Souls action-adventure (with a little bit of role-playing) rather than action in Ninja Gaiden sense. Meaning - exploration and exposition in the former do a lot more for me than in the latter.
Maybe waiting for my 3D Dot Game Heroes copy to arrive makes me feel this way, but Demon's Souls plays like reimagining in 3D of the original Legend of Zelda, or Xanadu - action-adventures this old. As if born of trying to do what game designers of yore could have done, if only given muscle for the job.

[Blinge]

I'd also like to highlight the fact each player can either bring their custom-built deck to the table or agree on constructing one from a shared pool, which I believe is how Magic: The Gathering works, trading card game way.

Oh for God's sake. Lost Kingdoms is a 99% single player experience, the PvP mode is such an afterthought. Someone 'bringing their custom deck to the table' only happens if another player brings a memory card with them! How likely is that in a rare(ish) game with no competitive scene? Not very. There's no scene because it's a bad multiplayer mode, I tried it as a teen, it sucked. And let me point out as I've done before in a different thread - Cards function as either weapons or summons that run around on the field for you; you can simply evade everything by running away with your character. The objective is to hit the other player's character; NOT their cards. Any Magic:The Gathering comparison is laughable and you should really have dropped it by now.

I see no problem with your comments about oldschool Zeldo. Still waiting for your progress report on DeS tho

Is this really our gold standard of difficulty?

It was the mainstream when difficult games were commercially viable for a mass audience. What would you rather compare it to? Extremely niche bullet hell shooters where difficulty is variable depending on what kind of achievement you're gunning for? I like Ketsui or DOJ as much as the next guy, but even a "mere" 1-all of those games are pretty far along the difficulty spectrum.

Like I said, nobody here is arguing it's the hardest game ever.

Pretty much this. And "zomg it's SO hard" doesn't really apply on a forum dedicated to shmups..

Dark Souls isn't that challenging, lol.

Oh you're that guy, that guy I see all over youtube comments. Kindly go back there.

Quash; no one cares for your tirade except people who feel like they're left behind some sort of bandwagon. It's extraneous to the games themselves and basically pointless.

The long and short of it is that illiterates desperately look for something to cling on to so they can seem much more seasoned in a genre than they actually are, and the internet enables this en masse.

This is poison. Absolutely toxic and I'd prefer you not to fill the thread with it. I believe a simpler reason; a good game marketed well, with elements appealing to various playstyles, generated a fanbase and some hype. Shock fucking horror.
You said "It's not a bad game by any means." Okay bro. It wasn't the game for you, that's okay. time to move on.
Maybe there is a portion of the fanbase who hype the series beyond reason and haven't got the credentials I'm sure you must have. Who the fuck cares.

Also we could all argue about genre definitions all day, but it would just be pedantry.
That being said, there's a reason the majority of internet calls it an action RPG. It is that hybrid, you don't need to rely solely on your MLG PRO ninja Gaiden action game skills if you don't want to. You can just cheese the stats; increase the strength of your avatar to make the game easier, rely on OP magic/ pyro and cheese enemies from a distance.

Vaati makes a good point somewhere in all this gushing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lnq44iwiVM Difficulty isn't really the objective.

Anyway some post-game LKII stuff is bullshittoo, I got killed by two enemies who trapped me in a perfect stunlock/knockdown vortex. My kingdom for a roll..

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, I'm not sure I want to read a blog post or an essay about how modern gamers are assholes. I don't have the highest opinion of them, but saying it in so many words sounds like overkill.

It's worth mentioning that the success of games like Ikaruga and Dark Souls were not simply lucky breaks fueled by egoism. If you read the pre-release developer interviews for Ikaruga, they said many times that they were designing a game that was slightly more slanted towards puzzling, and that they planned on hooking a more casual audience with it, possibly at the expense of the traditional shooting game crowd. In fact, it's almost uncanny how accurately they predicted every aspect of how the game would be received...

Likewise, even though Souls may not have been revolutionary per se, much like Dodonpachi it crystallized a lot of unpolished ideas that had been floating around and combined them in a unique way that was extremely memorable. I can't think of any other game beforehand that brought together online elements, exploration, checkpoint based challenges, ambiguous "show don't tell" lore, myriad rpg and adventure elements, and hard hitting combat in a 3d space quite the way Souls did. Obviously those individual elements existed before, but Souls brought them all together in a neat little package with inimitable atmosphere.

I was gonna say something else, but I forgot lol.

[Zaarock]

I'd really love a ps4 armored core game. with both a good single player game and online multiplayer. I'm sure I'd get demolished by the people who have been playing AC games for years, but it would be great all the same.

Armored Core: Verdict Day was a pseudo-MMO (sort of like Chromehounds) for the multiplayer aspect, I bet the next release will be also. It's still fairly popular in japan. Also has good single player but I definitely enjoyed For Answer the most out of the modern ones. By far the most challenging missions are super bosses you can only fight online. Even if you don't have friends to help out you can either hire random mercenaries or program and build AI mechs that can get the job done. Some people even use specialized AI teams to fight humans online. Maybe we'll see another series reboot on PS4 which could take a long time to develop if they go with the MMO aspect again.

Verdict Day bombed in the west like V though which is a shame. They managed to balance VD well at the end which is crazy considering how many parts and variables there are. Think souls style customization x10 but balance focus on multiplayer. Always wondered why it didn't draw much people from the souls community. Not that they're the same genre, but I thought the focus on customization and non-typical multiplayer would attract similar people. I'm not a fan of the graphics in V/VD (gritty 30fps with excessive post-processing effects) but the music is great as usual for armored core.


re: Dark Souls challenge blah blah
It's very punishing when you're still on the ropes & don't know what you're doing and I think that's cool. Once you fully know the mechanics and enemy positions etc. it's a very different experience. Like blinge said it's an action RPG and you have the option to cheese a lot of encounters. I always thought a shmup equivalent would be Radiant Silvergun which is easier to execute compared to most STG, has a bunch of cheese strats & is still a good game.