N64 French RGB MOD Picture Quality

[radiokid]

Hi

I have a French RGB modded N64, and I'm using a SNES RGB scart cable with sync on composite that I bought from www.retrogamingcables.co.uk.

I connect via my XRGB Mini.

I'm not sure if my video quality is good or bad for the N64. All my other consoles look ok to me, and my PAL SNES connected via the same scart cable also looks fine.

Just not sure if this is what I should expect from the N64.

https://youtu.be/PZ4cibvp0-Y

[Guspaz]

I can't see YouTube videos from here, but keep in mind that the N64 has terrible video quality on any sort of output, because of the anti-aliasing filter that it applies.

[Skips]

Its hard to tell in that video but here is about what the N64's video quality is in RGB. This is running on my XRGB Mini. As stated previously, the filtering it applies does make the N64 look a tad bit muddier.

[radiokid]

Yeah, I would describe it as muddy.

Mario doesn't look too bad on mine, although I don't usually have scan lines on (maybe I should).

My video isn't great, sorry about that, I guess what I was noticing was in star fox (llylat wars), I see banding on some textures, and what appear to be fuzzy artifacts whenever there is an overly bright screen.

Also I've noticed that where I should have a straight line, albeit with aliasing present, it seems as if it has some kind or artifacts, for example on mario 64 mario doesn't seem to have clean edges at times. It's hard to explain, but I'll try and take some screen shots.

I'm unsure as to whether I should fit a resistor in the scart cable, as I've noticed the image (especially mario 64) seems overly bright.

[mikejmoffitt]

The N64 applies a horizontal blur filter horizontally, making each pixel blended with its neighbor. This has to do with how the 320x240 rendering surface is scaled to the output 640 pixel wide output resolution, which the N64 outputs regardless of the current video mode. In the Ultra HDMI mod kit, a heuristic is in place that can detect that it's happening and will de-blur the image.

Regarding funny looking lines in Mario 64 and other games, the Nintendo 64's anti-aliasing seems to interfere with any textures that contain alpha. It seems they can't coexist. In Super Smash Bros, hover the character select hand over the 3D model of the character below, and you'll notice that where the hand shadow overlaps the player, the player's AA completely is disabled.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

The N64 applies a horizontal blur filter horizontally, making each pixel blended with its neighbor...Regarding funny looking lines in Mario 64 and other games, the Nintendo 64's anti-aliasing seems to interfere with any textures that contain alpha. It seems they can't coexist. In Super Smash Bros, hover the character select hand over the 3D model of the character below, and you'll notice that where the hand shadow overlaps the player, the player's AA completely is disabled.

Interesting insight there. I've been experiencing some uncertainity in what I'm experiencing on screen with my own RGB modded N64 myself. I'm unsure if it may be the N64's terrible bilinear filtering, or maybe just my console's DAC. It's very insidious, because it's not present in all games (like Mario 64), but as certain colors and textures overlap for particular games, or as a game fades to black and transitions to another screen, you can see a whole crosshatching triangle shaped"matte pattern" that is over the entire screen.

I found examples online from Youtube videos of "RGB modded" N64s" where what I'm seeing on my setup occur at the exact same spots. The first one is F Zero X, look at the track (particularly grey area, watch @1080p fullscreen) between 0:10 -0:13: https://youtu.be/pGc6MSMpKiw?t=10
The second one is Star Fox 64, in the intro as the capital ship is overlapped by the dialogue box from the general at 0:28, and 0:35-0:39 (watch @1080p fullscreen): https://youtu.be/AcU2MYJkGE4?t=24

The most demonstrative example is in Conker's Bad Fur Day, on the multiplayer mode Beach. If I equip the bazooka, the green night-vision effect that covers the screen reveals the ugly pattern no matter where you aim the reticule in the game world. Winback is another great example where I can see this everywhere at the starting training level. Unfortunately, this also appears for me in S-video (high quality monster S-video cable). Composite video is disconnected on my console so as to use Csync, so I can't test it, but I suspect it wouldn't be visible.

I found this statement from an N64 emulator development website, where they were discussing how the N64 implemented bilinear filtering:

"As most of you know, the way bilinear filtering was implemented on the Nintendo64 is different from PC or any other hardware. In order to lower the price of the hardware at the time, Nintendo did their own hack, and used 3 samples to filter the textures, instead of 4. Thanks to this, when the texture is filtered it creates a hexagonal pattern (that I like to call the "rupee" pattern, because it looks like a rupee from Zelda), instead of a diamond pattern (like it happens on PC). This technique is obviously inferior to the 4 sampled bilinear, as it is not a true bilinear filter, but it gives the Nintendo64's blurry mess it's unique "blurryness". Since most of the textures on the Nintendo64 were pretty low-res, this effect was pretty obvious."

Is this what I'm seeing in the above examples, or is there a problem with my setup (the console's DAC)? Darest I say it, but given what the N64 hardware does in certain games, I think I may prefer to play certain games in Composhit, because these screen artifacts really piss me off. The UltraHDMI provides an interesting solution with it's de-blur deature; I'd certainly be interested in it if it could solve my problem.

[radiokid]

Just to be clear.

This is the cable I use https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/gam ... d-for-sale with Composite Video + Sync.

I also have the same cable with Luma sync, however this produces NO picture at all, only sound.

Should I use a different cable? And if so which one?

[BuckoA51]

I had to use a EuroSCART to minidin cable with a sync cleaner (powered by the Mini) with my N64 in order to get a picture on the Mini

[Joelepain]

I can't see YouTube videos from here, but keep in mind that the N64 has terrible video quality on any sort of output, because of the anti-aliasing filter that it applies.

Please, oh please, stop to spread the belief that video quality / rendering look of the N64 is bad. There are people (like me) who prefer this look over the garbage pixels/jello polygons mess of the playstation.
And it's not about console war. I think 2D games on playstation look great, 3D games don't. It's the opposite for the N64.

...blablabla interesting post but too long to quote...

I understand what you describe. I think it's really the only thing that bothers me with the n64 rendering. I don't know if it's less because of antialiasing or bilinear filtering, but more because of some kind of dithering. You can see it well at the begining of Turok 2, if you go into the water, the blue haze of the water is not uniform and some repeaded square shapes appear all across the screen.
I've seen this effect with emulation with a software graphic plugin that tries to be accurate (i don't remember its name) so i think it's really the rendering of the n64 which looks like that and it's not because of the video output quality.

I also have the same cable with Luma sync, however this produces NO picture at all, only sound.

If you have a real "french" n64 (NUS-001(FRA) on the sticker under the console) than it's normal. This model doesn't ouput s-video because the French Standard was Secam and not PAL, and that's why the official rgb output of the model is almost completed (the traces are here but not the components). However the video amplifier outputs s-video so you can mod it to have s-video ouput. You won't find a lot of info on internet about that because people are aiming for rgb and don't care about s-video. But I know for 100% sure it's possible because I tried and it works.
However be aware that if you don't have crosshatch problems, sync-on-luma won't be very useful for you. But it can help syncing if you play NTSC games on your french n64.

[mikejmoffitt]

Please read my post above which describes the N64's 320x240 mode nearly always having a horizontal 50% blur applied. It isn't a myth that the N64 video output is not top tier.

[Guspaz]

Indeed, it's not a belief, it's a verifiable fact, which is quite easy to test for. Heck, some games let you disable it...

[Voultar]

Please, oh please, stop to spread the belief that video quality / rendering look of the N64 is bad. There are people (like me) who prefer this look over the garbage pixels/jello polygons mess of the playstation. And it's not about console war. I think 2D games on playstation look great, 3D games don't. It's the opposite for the N64.

Yes, because anti-aliasing for a system that outputs a 240P/480i resolution is what everyone wants in life. I just love smearing Vaseline all over my TV when I play PS1 games so I get that "authentic" N64 look.

Nothing beats it.

[BONKERS]

Please read my post above which describes the N64's 320x240 mode nearly always having a horizontal 50% blur applied. It isn't a myth that the N64 video output is not top tier.

So because it attempts to not have it's 3D rendering look like garbage like the PS1 it's not "Top Tier"?

Even when it was new back in the day and to this day the N64's 3D has always looked better IMO because of their attempts to smooth the 3D rendering in addition to the filtering of the low res textures.
It looks smooth like 3D rendering SHOULD be even if not precise or ideal. Even at a low resolution.

3D rendering is totally different and should not be lumped in with 2D pixel games when it comes to how the image should look. Never. At any resolution. Period.
It's video output is just fine and is being lumped in as being bad simply because by design it s fundamentally different from "Ermagerd ULTRA 100% super sharpness pixel based games." (Whether the same applies to strictly 2D games on the 64 is a different story. And an understandable gripe)

If "I don't like it" is enough to qualify as objectively being of poorer quality then the PS1's video output is primitive trash. No Depth and perspective correction or texture filtering, it's a pixellated temporally unstable mess of wobbling polygons and aliasing.

[FBX]

Interestingly enough, the filter can be turned off if the programmers of a game so choose. The best example is Quake II, where they turn the filter off if the 8MB expansion unit is detected. The resolution still stays 320x240, but the pixels are much more sharply focused.

[RGB32E]

The N64 applies a horizontal blur filter horizontally, making each pixel blended with its neighbor...Regarding funny looking lines in Mario 64 and other games, the Nintendo 64's anti-aliasing seems to interfere with any textures that contain alpha. It seems they can't coexist. In Super Smash Bros, hover the character select hand over the 3D model of the character below, and you'll notice that where the hand shadow overlaps the player, the player's AA completely is disabled.

Interesting insight there. I've been experiencing some uncertainity in what I'm experiencing on screen with my own RGB modded N64 myself. I'm unsure if it may be the N64's terrible bilinear filtering, or maybe just my console's DAC. It's very insidious, because it's not present in all games (like Mario 64), but as certain colors and textures overlap for particular games, or as a game fades to black and transitions to another screen, you can see a whole crosshatching triangle shaped"matte pattern" that is over the entire screen.

That insight is from the UltraHDMI user manual regarding the VI de-blur!

All N64s output video data that is 640 active pixels in width, regardless of the game's internal resolution. The vast majority of games render in 320x240 and can benefit from this functionality.

The filter setting in Quake 64 doesn't switch resolutions, and still benefits from de-blur when turned off. That said....

Interestingly enough, the filter can be turned off if the programmers of a game so choose. The best example is Quake II, where they turn the filter off if the 8MB expansion unit is detected. The resolution still stays 320x240, but the pixels are much more sharply focused.

Yeah, sounds like you have this backwards.
In all likelihood, Quake II is outputting 640x240 (horizontal pixel double) to avoid the built in blur (<640 to 640), not changing the resolution.

[RGB32E]

I found examples online from Youtube videos of "RGB modded" N64s" where what I'm seeing on my setup occur at the exact same spots. The first one is F Zero X, look at the track (particularly grey area, watch @1080p fullscreen) between 0:10 -0:13: https://youtu.be/pGc6MSMpKiw?t=10

Looks like this de-blurred:

Spoiler

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

I found examples online from Youtube videos of "RGB modded" N64s" where what I'm seeing on my setup occur at the exact same spots. The first one is F Zero X, look at the track (particularly grey area, watch @1080p fullscreen) between 0:10 -0:13: https://youtu.be/pGc6MSMpKiw?t=10

Looks like this de-blurred:

Spoiler

Did you grab that screen from an UltraHDMI running with the "VI de-blur" enabled? If so, could you do me a favour and post the same image but zoomed out to a fullscreen grab of the standard screen dimensions? It seems like what is demonstrated in those Youtube videos I linked may still be present with the UltraHDMI from that zoomed in pic.

[Joelepain]

Did you grab that screen from an UltraHDMI running with the "VI de-blur" enabled? If so, could you do me a favour and post the same image but zoomed out to a fullscreen grab of the standard screen dimensions? It seems like what is demonstrated in those Youtube videos I linked may still be present with the UltraHDMI from that zoomed in pic.

As I said it doesn't seems to be related to the video output quality, but by the n64 rendering itself (in the digital domain).
You can see it on this video https://youtu.be/-oPN3_N_31s of CEN64, which is an emulator that is trying to be cycle accurate.
It looks like some kind of dithering. Maybe the purpose of the horizontal bluring that everyone seems to hate was to soften this dithering (but it's just a supposition i'm making).
RGB32E could affirm or deny this : I think that the VI-Deblur of the UltraHDMI should worsen this effect instead of improving it.

[RGB32E]

RGB32E could affirm or deny this : I think that the VI-Deblur of the UltraHDMI should worsen this effect instead of improving it.

Yay! Very astute of you Joelepain!

Of course the VI-Deblur with the UltraHDMI makes the dithering/filtering artifacts apparent! Good post!

[FBX]

I actually like being able to see the dithering. To me, blurring looks worse than dithering.

[Josh128]

Star Fox 64 has some unique things going on in its graphics that I havent seen in any other N64 game-- all of the colors, especially noticeable on dark colors and blacks, employ some sort of shading/dithering that changes/moves-- and this can even be seen on a paused screen. Ive always thought it was something to do with the color depth or resolution, but Im not sure.

Curious to see if anyone can explain it.

[Shuco13]

After adjusting the aspect ratio, setting SHARPNESS to 1 on the Framemeister seems to almost correct this issue. However it's not 100% pixel perfect if that's what you want. I'm still thinking of whether I should use this mode or leave SHARPNESS on 0.

[FBX]

Yeah, sounds like you have this backwards.
In all likelihood, Quake II is outputting 640x240 (horizontal pixel double) to avoid the built in blur (<640 to 640), not changing the resolution.

Maybe, maybe not. There's not much to find Googling this game's technique for getting around the blur function.

Here's a Framemeister snap of 4mb versus 8mb (and gameplay is also low res like this, so it's not a case of the artwork being low res itself)

Spoiler

And below is 8mb:

Spoiler

IF it is just a case of pixel doubling, then that would mean there's likely no way the programmers could turn the blur function off otherwise. There are some claims I found mentioned that it could be done with some sort of debug code from Shadows of the Empire, but it might be confusing other techniques like fog and antialiasing.

[Shuco13]

@FBX
Do you refer to the Shadows of the Empire prototype which has the option to turn dither and antialiasing on/off? Maybe it's something that could be applied as a patch if we know how it works.
More info here: http://micro-64.com/features/starwarsproto.shtml

[FBX]

@FBX
Do you refer to the Shadows of the Empire prototype which has the option to turn dither and antialiasing on/off? Maybe it's something that could be applied as a patch if we know how it works.
More info here: http://micro-64.com/features/starwarsproto.shtml

I guess that's the game (I'm not really familiar with it). The thing is though, "antialiasing" may not be referring to the blur function. Perhaps someone else can check it to see what the deal is.

[Josh128]

Wow-- very curious as to whether changing the resolution and/or anti-aliasing/dithering, etc. can make difference in frame rate/performance?

Wish I had an everdrive to try it out. Can anyone check into it?

[RGB32E]

Yeah, sounds like you have this backwards.
In all likelihood, Quake II is outputting 640x240 (horizontal pixel double) to avoid the built in blur (<640 to 640), not changing the resolution.

Maybe, maybe not. There's not much to find Googling this game's technique for getting around the blur function.

Given that the N64 RCP always outputs a 640 pixel wide signal and that Quake 2 with expansion pak gives no visual difference with de-blur on or off, one could deduce what I described - 640x240 output with expansion pak. Nothing too mysterious! If the internal frame buffer without the expansion pak installed runs at 320x240, it would explain the softer image and could be corrected with the VI de-blur enabled, resulting in a similar, if not identical image (aside from effects enabled with the EP). I'll have to give it a try! Sounds like you're confusing various rendering effects on the internal frame buffer with the RCP output. You could always try and track down the programmers for the port and ask (upgrade your search-fu)!

[FBX]

I just thought of another game to look into that doesn't appear to have blur: Doom 64. I had forgotten I made a video of a Framemeister recording of it in 1080p, and the last 30 seconds or so, I turn off scanlines so you can see the pixels are sharp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEsf6nurh2Q


Another case of pixel doubling? Only this one doesn't use the memory expansion pak.

[mikejmoffitt]

The 320x240 games use pixel doubling, blur or not. I have not developed for N64 nor disassembled any games so this is only speculation, but I'm guessing that the 320x240 with blur have an "off by one" situation where the final output is not horizontally aligned to an integer position in the 640 pixel wide output.

From that video Doom looks like it is not blurred. Donkey Kong 64 is not blurred, I think, though I'm just guessing this based on looking at it on my TV. When I was doing the N64 VGA project using an FPGA, I did notice Smash Brothers 64 has the blur, and I was going crazy wondering how I was somehow blurring the N64 video. I later found out I was right and that's really how the N64 looks for most games.

[Josh128]

I just thought of another game to look into that doesn't appear to have blur: Doom 64. I had forgotten I made a video of a Framemeister recording of it in 1080p, and the last 30 seconds or so, I turn off scanlines so you can see the pixels are sharp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEsf6nurh2Q


Another case of pixel doubling? Only this one doesn't use the memory expansion pak.

When you refer to games that dont appear to have blur-- might that mean any N64 game that doesnt use AA? A few more of those off the top of my head:

KI Gold
FZero X
Mortal Kombat 4
Automobili Lamborghini (IIRC)