Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[LEGENOARYNINLIA]

Repeating myself again but I've gamed on pre-digital end of 80's/early 90's shadow mask tubes in full analogue built that blew me away, and even later sets from the 2nd half ot the 90's to early 2000's looked awesome even next to expensive Trinitrons.
Just try/buy what you find in good condition, not limiting yourselves to Sony, and you're up for pleasing surprises.

Well put.

[DatPhosphorGlow]

So I finally found the time to use my BVMs and got some solid FF7 hours in , unfortunately it was via component as I have yet to get the hardware to do RGB. Looking forward to outputting true 240P out of my PSX instead of 480 from the PS2. Very happy with the geometry adjustments. My main unit is a D14, still on the prowl for a 20".

I have a few questions:

When using component, I have the sub option to select "BETA 0", "BETA 7.5" and "SMPTE". I do see a visible difference between the three. Which one should I be using?

What does the "PHASE" knob on my BKM-10R do? It seems to do nothing, or perhaps it just doesn't do anything with a component signal?

Lastly, does anyone have a spare BKM-127W they'd like to get rid of cheap. I know it's a bit redundant on a BVM but I'd like to play my composite consoles on my BVM for now till they get modded.

Thanks for all the help so far ShMUPS.

[Fudoh]

There is hardly a visible difference between component from a PS2 and RGB from a PS1. Also all PS1 games will output in the same resolution on a PS2 as they would on a PS1. If you're running a 240p game you get 240p from both systems.

[bobrocks95]

I thought component output from the PS2 in 15kHz was known to be noisy? Probably not noticable on a CRT regardless.

[Fudoh]

Probably not noticable on a CRT regardless.

this.

[FinalBaton]

While we're on the subject of ps1, ps2, rgb and component :

Would it be worth it to get my 480p ps2 signal through SCART RGsB on the NEC XM37 Plus?

It would mean that I need to flip a switch on the back of the monitor each time I use SOG(so each time I play a 480p game), wich is a little bit annoying. I would also need to buy an SLG3000 to use on some ps2 compilations.

Meanwhile, going the component route would mean buying a converter such as Behar Bros upcoming GARO, since the NEC doesn't accept component. This one has a scanliner built-in though, wich is certainly nice.
But since my monitor (supposedly) accepts SOG, and therefor doesn't need a converter to accept the ps2's 480p signal, I have a hard time justifying the purchase of a YUV converter when one isn't needed.
The advantages of going this route would be : no need to go flick a switch on the back of the monitor, and if I ever get an XBOX and/or a Gamecube and/or a Wii, I'll already have the converter.




BTW, can someone confirm to me that the NEC XM monitors accept RGsB?

[Fudoh]

The SLG units don't support SoG, just seperate HV sync signals.

How do you connect your PS2 right now ? Of course you should use 480p whenever possible, but especially with the PS2 it's a real nuisance to get both the RGBs and the RGsB signal routed through the same equipment.

Best way would likely be PS2 > Sync Stripper > Extron Sync interface > SLG3000 > monitor.

[FinalBaton]

The SLG units don't support SoG, just seperate HV sync signals.

How do you connect your PS2 right now ? Of course you should use 480p whenever possible, but especially with the PS2 it's a real nuisance to get both the RGBs and the RGsB signal routed through the same equipment.

Best way would likely be PS2 > Sync Stripper > Extron Sync interface > SLG3000 > monitor.

Wow am I glad I asked : I didn't even know that the SLG3000 needed separate H and V sync

Right now I go PS2 > Sync Stripper > monitor

Can you give me an example of an Extron unit that would do the job?

[Fudoh]

Can you give me an example of an Extron unit that would do the job?

any. RGBs from your stripper should get passed untouched and you can convert RBsB to either RGBs or RGBHV.

[FinalBaton]

Can you give me an example of an Extron unit that would do the job?

any. RGBs from your stripper should get passed untouched and you can convert RBsB to either RGBs or RGBHV.

So anything from Extron called ''RGB interface''. Got it.

[Fudoh]

look for "Extron RGB" on ebay and stay away from those which don't have a standard HD15 input.

[FinalBaton]

Excellent. Thanks!

[atheistgod1999]

I thought component output from the PS2 in 15kHz was known to be noisy? Probably not noticable on a CRT regardless.

It's noisy as hell on 15khz. Consumer-grade TVs (even trinitrons) don't show it but it's extremely obvious on a BVM probably because it has more TV lines so it can resolve it. This is only with 3rd-party cables, however. I got a 1st-party cable after the issue and the noise completely went away.

[DatPhosphorGlow]

There is hardly a visible difference between component from a PS2 and RGB from a PS1. Also all PS1 games will output in the same resolution on a PS2 as they would on a PS1. If you're running a 240p game you get 240p from both systems.

Maybe the PS2 puts out a 240 image over a 480 signal when displaying PSX games? Because the BVM says it has a 480/60i signal. I'm going to be using RGB anyway since I want to use PSX hardware for my PSX games.

Can anyone shed light on the questions from my last post :S?

[Guspaz]

All consoles output 240p images over a 480i signal. There is no such thing as 240p, it's merely a modified 480i signal with both frames tagged as the same field (odd field, IIRC?). The PS2 outputs 240p in an identical manner to the PS1.

[cfx]

.

[KatKya]

Maybe the PS2 puts out a 240 image over a 480 signal when displaying PSX games? Because the BVM says it has a 480/60i signal. I'm going to be using RGB anyway since I want to use PSX hardware for my PSX games.=

240p is a "hacked"/modified 480i signal, so just about anything that will tell you the specific resolution your displaying in will see it as 480i. PS2 outputs anything PS1 as it was originally intended; If an SCPH-1001 would output something in 480i, so will the SCPH-90001.

When using component, I have the sub option to select "BETA 0", "BETA 7.5" and "SMPTE". I do see a visible difference between the three. Which one should I be using?

BETA 0 and BETA 7.5 make me think it's black level related, but I can't say for sure.

What does the "PHASE" knob on my BKM-10R do? It seems to do nothing, or perhaps it just doesn't do anything with a component signal?

Essentially the tint/color setting that you see in consumer sets. It's for adjusting the phase setting for dealing with NTSC composite signals. It won't have any effect on PAL or SECAM composite(I believe) and obviously not for RGB or Component.

and ninja'd...

[DatPhosphorGlow]

Thanks for clarifying those things up guys. I was hoping my BKM-10R wasn't broken .

In other BVM problems I'm attempting to connect my PC to it via CGA, I have a BVM-D14H1U so it can handle the refresh rate (I think?). I'm using the following Atlona VGA to BNC adapter and have concluded that the BVM accepts the signal and syncs on green. However, I get some dark grey overlay (transparent) bars across the image, odd geometry at the corners and the monitor keeps "resetting" every 3-4 seconds. I've attempted to correct the odd geometry via the settings but no success. I'll post some pictures and a video when I get a chance. Any ideas what's wrong? One of the main reasons I wanted a D series was so I can output old 4:3 videos and watch them on a CRT as they were originally intended to be watched.

[narunetto]

I recently got a PVM 2530 and the picture is pretty great aside from some geometry issues and it also is a bit jumpy at the bottom of the screen and sometimes the the edges of the screen "bounce". I was wondering if this was some caps going bad or what? Also how easy is it to fix the geometry on these things?

[kamiboy]

Geometry is not easy to fix since the 2530 does not have an OSD, so you'll have to pop open the back and play around with unlabeled pots on a board to the side. Playing with a pot and seeing what it does at the same time is not easy.

The 2530 I once had, displayed a solid picture, no shaking, so caps might be your problem.

[Taiyaki]

Are you seeing the screen vibrate when very up close, and is it all over or just some specific areas? If it's only some specific areas it's probably the source. I had that on my pro monitors as well.

[aaronmjr]

Geometry is not easy to fix since the 2530 does not have an OSD, so you'll have to pop open the back and play around with unlabeled pots on a board to the side. Playing with a pot and seeing what it does at the same time is not easy.

The 2530 I once had, displayed a solid picture, no shaking, so caps might be your problem.

I put a full length mirror like 10 inches away which made it easy to see what was happening when I had my 2530's. Also, if the "bouncing" you are seeing is just at the edge you may be able to adjust it away with a little overscan.

[narunetto]

Geometry is not easy to fix since the 2530 does not have an OSD, so you'll have to pop open the back and play around with unlabeled pots on a board to the side. Playing with a pot and seeing what it does at the same time is not easy.

The 2530 I once had, displayed a solid picture, no shaking, so caps might be your problem.

I put a full length mirror like 10 inches away which made it easy to see what was happening when I had my 2530's. Also, if the "bouncing" you are seeing is just at the edge you may be able to adjust it away with a little overscan.

That's what I was thinking.

I just sat down to maybe try to get a video of the bobbing around and of course it doesn't happen again, go figure. I did snap a picture of what a grid test looks like, though.
http://ul.imcumm.in/u/IMAG0216.jpg

[OldSchoolGamer1203]

This was probably answered somewhere in this forum, but can someone explain to me the difference between the A, B, C, D and E classes? Much appreciated.

[Ed Oscuro]

Those are referring to two different things: Series and TVL spec class.

The last series of CRT-based BVM was the BVM-A series, and before that the D series (D for "digital" in this case). You need to pay close attention to input board compatibility with analog signals if you wish to run analog inputs on them.

Before the D series there were a lot of models with different names, but the recent series was named like BVM-20F1U. The number is diagonal measurement, the first letter is the TVL spec, and the last letter refers to region. For TVL spec, E denotes 1000 TVL measured in the center area of the monitor, F is for 900 TVL, G for 800. For regions, U is North America, E is Europe, and J is Japan. Some real models include the BVM-D24E1WU (D series 24" with 1000 TVL and North American region; here I believe the "W" denotes it's a 16:9 format monitor, which it is), the BVM-20E1E (European model with 1000 TVL spec), and BVM-20F1U (900 TVL monitor for North America).

Note that when reading the TVL spec, it's referring to the number of vertical lines that stand out sharply, white against black, in an area of the montior as wide as it is tall. Even in classic 4:3 aspect ratio monitors, a humble 600 TVL spec monitor is still more than adequate for resolving 640 lines horizontally. I wouldn't bother spending big money on the highest end BVMs unless you absolutely need the best per-pixel clarity, i.e., if you're playing a bunch of 3D games on the thing and need to distinguish just a few pixels from each other. For any standard definition console or arcade game, 650 TVL is more than adequate.

[Mr_5p3wk3y]

Hello!

This is my first post and this is a long thread and I'm sure the top posters are sick of answering questions by now but hopefully you don't mind helping me out...

I've read the vast majority of this thread (which is a long old read) trying to familiarise myself with the 20F1E, but I'm running into a few issues.
I was quite happily using a BVM-20M4E with no issues; sync was fine, colours seemed to be spot on, geometry was decent and the screen was filled from corner to corner with pure, unadulterated super nintendo splendour.

Now, I recently got hold of a 20F1E and I realise it requires a clean sync but I thought I'd try it with the cables I was using on the 20M4E anyway but obviously the sync was all messed up. So I ordered a SCART from Retro Gaming Cables with sync on Luma (my console is PAL) and it works! The thing is though, the image seems to have a pink cast and when using the 240p test program looking at the white & RGB screen, the red flickers and the white screen sort of flickers but the cast changes slightly as well... It's not the colour balance on the monitor because the menu text is white. Another thing, I can't seem to fill the screen up either; vertically anyway.... I have the vertical size all the way up to 200 but no joy.

The set up is this:

PAL SNES
BVM-20F1E
RGB SCART with sync on Luma
Retro Gaming Cables female SCART to BCN breakout cable (without sync cleaner circuit)
75ohm terminators on the outs

The problem most probably lies in the breakout cable not having the sync cleaner circuit but I thought it would be fun to post here and see what you guys think before i have to spend 30 quid on another cable...

[dak1]

I've been reading this awesome thread for a while and I finally have something that might be worth posting.
I'm eagerly awaiting the delivery of a pallet of 9 CRTs including one BVM-20E1U.
I've only owned a PVM-14M4U(which I love), and never shipped anything like this before. I hope I haven't made a terrible mistake. I'll know next week.

[chuckster]

I love deep, dark, 85% pure cocoa, fine-tooth comb scanlines ( as per photos and videos of the BVMs on here, and my tweaking with CRT-Royale) and the PVMs I have (1954Q and 20M2U), while a real step up from my flat-tube Sanyo circa 2003, don't have that razor-sharp look of the **F1U/**E1U model BVMs I've seen here, or even the 800TVL PVM sets.

Is there any way to beef up the scanlines on these monitors? I have turned off the trap filter and that helps by making things sharper, but if I could just get some sort of sharpness adjustment or make the lines wider/more distinct without bottoming out the brightness/contrast, that would be great. I have to do pretty extensive geometry adjustments to a recent pickup (another 1954Q), so I'll be mucking about in the service menu anyway, and I was just figured I'd ask. I understand I may be asking too much from these old 600TVL sets.

[Fudoh]

Now, I recently got hold of a 20F1E and I realise it requires a clean sync

it doesn't. Old info in the thread's opening post, sorry. So your initial problem has to have another source as well.

Is your SNES running at 50Hz or 60 Hz ?

[PWGuy]

I love deep, dark, 85% pure cocoa, fine-tooth comb scanlines ( as per photos and videos of the BVMs on here, and my tweaking with CRT-Royale) and the PVMs I have (1954Q and 20M2U), while a real step up from my flat-tube Sanyo circa 2003, don't have that razor-sharp look of the **F1U/**E1U model BVMs I've seen here, or even the 800TVL PVM sets.

Is there any way to beef up the scanlines on these monitors? I have turned off the trap filter and that helps by making things sharper, but if I could just get some sort of sharpness adjustment or make the lines wider/more distinct without bottoming out the brightness/contrast, that would be great. I have to do pretty extensive geometry adjustments to a recent pickup (another 1954Q), so I'll be mucking about in the service menu anyway, and I was just figured I'd ask. I understand I may be asking too much from these old 600TVL sets.

I found a white adjuster inside my PVM-14M2U on the small/back rear board and it did this very thing. I like the same as you but a little less bold so I adjusted accordingly and have it perfectly set for me!