Best all-round retro+modern gaming surround headphones...

[andykara2003]

Hi - excuse my ignorance on this question - I've been concentrating on displays for the last few years but am now thinking of getting a reasonably good gaming surround headphone setup that cover all my needs.
Here's a list of what I'm looking for. I don't know if such headphones/headphone setup exists, but if they don't I'd be interested to hear what the closest alternative options are.

1 : They'll only be used for gaming and would ideally be compatible with all my surround-capable consoles from the N64 to PS4 - so would need to do pro logic, prologic 2 etc. as well as Dolby digital - PS4 etc.

2: Ideally, they'd be open headphones (so I can still hear what the kids are up to).

3: Ideally they'd be an all-in one headphone unit but if not I'd be interested to hear my alternatives - I guess that would be to use normal headphones with an external processor of some sort?

4: I'd like to keep the cost under £100, or if not close to that.

5: From what I've read, I wouldn't want headphones with multiple speakers/drivers, just one driver per ear using the "dolby headphones" processing or similar. Is this right?

Cheers - any help would be really appreciated...

[bobrocks95]

Surround sound headphones is/are an oxymoron/marketing gimmick. Stereo headphones are the only thing worth looking at, especially considering the surround ones are marketed towards "gamers" and are awful brands like Turtle Beach with numerous design flaws and not that great audio quality. I would recommend you look at some entry-level AKG or Sennheiser headphones, or any other brands (other than Bose) that sell no-frills stereo headphones (i.e. no attached microphone) aimed at studios.

If you want to sacrifice some quality for connection capabilities you might end up at Turtle Beach or maybe Sony headphones for the PS4 connectivity, I don't know the details on that end of things. Some kind of DAC would probably be needed? Does the PS4 still even have a separate TOSLINK connector?

[mikejmoffitt]

Just here to vouch for the Grado Prestige series open-can headphones, which I've been using for a while now.

[Chocograph]

I've used the Astro a40's since 2011 and I don't want speakers or any other headphones. Pricey though. Insanely comfortable. I use them for gaming, music, movies..everything. I had Trittons with four speakers in each cup before that - real surround. Bass and soundstage is unreal as well as great 5.1 surround but the small 23 and 30mm drivers muffled the sound. Can't compare to 40mm at all. The astro mixamp fakes the surround with dolby BUT to my surprise the dolby 2 channel mixed surround from the mixamp is VERY close to the Trittons multiple driver setup. I say it because it's true. I use dolby surround for most games. It's a gimmick that works great.

[Ji-L87]

So like bobrocks95 said, "surround-headphones" is a gimmick rather than something you'd actually want.

As for open headphones, my starting recommendation will always be the Koss Porta Pro (light on it's feet, semi bassy) or the Sennheiser PX-100 II (darker & more deep bass) simply due to them being great bang for the buck and great at the entry level.
They are on-ear headphones in the classic walkman-sense rather than over-ear like bigger headphones.

They are also quite useful since they'll give you a reference point as you figure out your preferred sound signature over time. Lastly, they are also very lightweight to wear and very easy to power. They can be driven by anything that has a headphone connection.

If we're stepping things up a bit, popular brands that has open-back headphones include Philips, Sennheiser, AKG and of course Grado. Also Sony and Audio Technica.
I haven't personally heard any of these (somehow I own more closed-back headpones even though I like open back more ) but the most popular ones I see online are in no particular order:
From Philips the SHP9500, Philips Fidelio X1 and X2.
From Sennheiser the HD558, 598, 600 and 650.
From AKG I guess it would be the K700-range with the Massdrop K7XX especially getting a lot of press.

I would refer to /r/headphones and head-fi for further reading.

As for the Astro Mixamp, I have one because it allows me to use better equipment for gaming but the dolby function and EQs are not up to par IMO.

[ZellSF]

Not an audiophile so shouldn't get involved too much, but the Wii U and probably future consoles do not support optical out: if you want surround out it needs to be HDMI.

That's a consideration that will drive you way over budget though.

[Ji-L87]

There are boxes like this though which enables you to pass through the HDMI video and output the audio out through either Toslink or Stereo RCA.

I used that particular one for my WiiU back when all my other devices on my desk were connected using optical audio. It actually worked. I never did an A/B comparison for sound quality but I was satisfied with the performance.

[Xyga]

Koss Porta Pro (light on it's feet, semi bassy) or the Sennheiser PX-100 II (darker & more deep bass)

I've had the porta pro and px-100 (not 'II') for ages and it's funny but it kind of always felt the other way around for me;
- PPro: bass-heavy, dark, with average soundstage, but good level of details.
- PX100: less bass, wider soundstage and clearer highs with slightly recessed mids and a bit less details compared to the PPro.
Though again I've never tried the px100-ii. the original just won't break/die lol.
These things are indeed bargains, the px100 remains my favourite popular entry-level.

PS: isn't headphones surround just a temporal trick anyway ?

[ZellSF]

There are boxes like this though which enables you to pass through the HDMI video and output the audio out through either Toslink or Stereo RCA.

I used that particular one for my WiiU back when all my other devices on my desk were connected using optical audio. It actually worked. I never did an A/B comparison for sound quality but I was satisfied with the performance.

Those won't work for the Wii U for virtual surround. They don't transcode and the Wii U only supports multi channel PCM output.

On the subject of PortaPro vs PX100-II I'd go with the PX100-II, but that has more to do with comfort and reliability than sound quality.

[Ji-L87]

Those won't work for the Wii U for virtual surround. They don't transcode and the Wii U only supports multi channel PCM output.

Didn't really think of that but I'd probably skip the whole surround thing anyway and focus on getting all systems hooked up in a convenient and well-working manner for some stereo pleasure.

On the subject of PortaPro vs PX100-II I'd go with the PX100-II, but that has more to do with comfort and reliability than sound quality.

Koss Porta Pro (light on it's feet, semi bassy) or the Sennheiser PX-100 II (darker & more deep bass)

I've had the porta pro and px-100 (not 'II') for ages and it's funny but it kind of always felt the other way around for me;
- PPro: bass-heavy, dark, with average soundstage, but good level of details.
- PX100: less bass, wider soundstage and clearer highs with slightly recessed mids and a bit less details compared to the PPro.
Though again I've never tried the px100-ii. the original just won't break/die lol.
These things are indeed bargains, the px100 remains my favourite popular entry-level.

I think the PX-100 II is the overall better sounding headphone but I find the Koss to be more comfortable. Pads are slightly softer and they clamp less. I know hair can get stuck in the Koss headband, but I really like that solution as it's very easy and smooth to adjust how tight it sits. PX is more comfortable to wear around the neck though. Also, while The PX-100 II have a single entry cord, the quality of it is quite poor. It's thin but very rubbery and springy whereas the Koss's might be a dual entry cable but it's more well behaved - a small thing but I also prefer the 45 degree angle of the connector on PP compared to the 90 degrees on the PX. Also it's a cheaper headphone which helps to convince people. I think both are cheap enough that everyone should have a pair just to use around the house - ideal for handheld gaming or tablet browsing or whatever

Xyga, interesting observations. I actually never heard the original PX100s but I understand they have quite a different sound. The mark II is definitively darker than the PP to my ears. I also find the soundstage to be less open, more "intimate". Better instrument separation and placement within that smaller soundstage however. I agree with the recessed midrange, voices sound slightly thinner compared to the PP. Bass on PP is a bit wooly. There is a fair amount of bass but it doesn't go all that deep and lacks authority in comparison.

Both are great budget performers I think

/off topic

[gray117]

1st question - are you using a receiver/amp to decode the signal?

Without one you'll have to make sure your headphones are getting fed the decoded signal.

Otherwise you'll just get a muddled sound/missing channels when simply using a stereo headphone.


...


2nd thing - beyond broad recommendations headphones will sound different to different people - try before you buy if possible for comfort/personal tastes... even is crap like wherther your ears sit on or in the cups ... it's all personal and is a relatively big difference... not that everyone has a choice depending on ear size

...

If you use a receiver all you need to do is choose the stereo phones you like and plug in.

Receiver wise there's a couple of things below to be aware of. But that might just be irrelevant if you've got a setup that you're good with already.

If you don't have a receiver then the advice your after is that you'll want a headphone/mixer combo that supports the surround sound signal - support wise you're looking with something that supports 'dolby headphones' tech wise.

Nearly all non gaming headphones simply do not have this because they're expecting that work to have already been done by the device you're plugging them into

...

So... if you don't have a receiver or don't want to get one a full blown one, someone's going to have to recommend you a headphone mixer (i.e. a small receiver) bundle/combo with optical in for new stuff and phono in for older.

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Things to beware of:


1. Lag due to conversion. Most receivers will process audio with no noticeable lag, however some fancy movie receivers from about 6/7 years ago [unless they have a don't fck with it passthough option on video] would delay both audio and video as standard, with no other options, to sync them at what for what is the best quality output processing - which is fine for movies, but kind of disastrous for games - no idea if that's still a problem, I shouldn't think so.

Most receivers will have an add audio lag option; don't be alarmed, but check it/reset it to 0 if you buy something old/used - this'll be for situations where a user's tv is responding slower than the audio processing and speakers - again something we don't want to come across at all in games, but is inevitable on some of the fussiest movie stuff where input lag simply doesn't matter, just picture quality/conversion.


3. Your setup/amount of inputs, fiddling around reconnecting things.

4. Can you're tv do optical pass through for any input type? Hassle free if so - plug in your sources hdmi/phono and whatever and only have 1 common optical out going to a mixer/decoder. Otherwise yeah you've got an optical cable per new device and 2 (L/R) phonos per old device.

5. Many smaller/cheaper modern decoders might only do DTS and not pro-logic... although nothing stopping you from getting a cheap-pre-hdmi receiver for that stuff.

6. Presuming you go for something wired get an extension cord or two - it's a dumb practical point but more cable is generally better than less, and if you do get something a bit expensive it'll help minimise risk/wear and tear on the actual plug of your headphones if you're just leave an end in an extender and plug/unplug the extender.


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7. The alternative - fck it all - just get some decent stereo headphones you really like and a straight forward stereo output from your devices ... particularly if it's not all going through the same tv or not in the same room etc etc.

[andykara2003]

This is amazing information, thanks very much guys. Good advice Gray - I've now decided I want a microphone, but I don't have or want a receiver. I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, and thinking about it, ideally wireless as well.

So I think I'm basically looking for a headset that is:

1: Open backed

2: Wireless (maybe not possible, but would be nice)

3: Big and comfortable - i.e. over the ears, full sized

4: Under £150

5: Like you say, Gray, It would be nice to have an option of optical input from the PS4 as well as a 3.55mm jack input from older consoles.

6: Needs to be able to decode pro-logic and pro-logic 2 from old consoles as well as use the surround on the PS4.

7: Simple setup - maybe a box like the Astro mixamp (although Ji-L87 doesn't rate the Dolby function) but ideally not having to use a full receiver.


Sorry for changing the requirements - you guys game me a lot to think about! I had to think more carefully about what I wanted.

[Udderdude]

I've been using Sennheiser 570's for a decade now, but recently I bought some 558's off Amazon because they were having a sale ($100 canadian). They're pretty good.

Seems like you just missed the biggest sale on them, but maybe they will pop up again for sale on Amazon.

[andykara2003]

Thanks Udderdude - I decided to get one with a microphone for voice chat now tho'. I don't mind paying a little more to counteract any sound quality difference..


Maybe what I need is, as Ji-L87 aluded to, an Astro mixamp paired with a headset that's better than the Astro A40. The Mixamp does pro-logic 2 - but I'm not sure that means it will do the original pro-logic as well?

[Ji-L87]

maybe a box like the Astro mixamp (although Ji-L87 doesn't rate the Dolby function)

To be fair though, I find that the mixamp only sounds slightly off when using optical. Connect it to a PC using USB though and it's really good. Except, it doesn't do any of the fancy stuff then (and needs another source in through optical for "mixing").
I might be overly critical but I'm mostly bummed out because there isn't a lot of competition for it either. I have what I believe was a 2013 model, not sure how it performs to the older or newer ones...

But seeing now as it might be wireless gaming headset you're after something from the Astro Lineup might actually fit the bill except for price.
Something like Astro A50 gen2s or maybe Skullcandy PLYR1 perhaps:

Those supports dolby and optical connections it would seem.

Both of these are closed-back however as they usually need to stuff electronics in the cups or add some buttons and so on.

[andykara2003]

I see, thanks for that. For the older consoles, would the mixamp do both pro-logic 2 and pro-logic 1 as well? It's only listed as pro-logic 2 but I'm not sure if that automatically means it'll decode the original pro-logic of the N64..

Both the Astro A50 and Skullcandy do dolby 2 as well as the mixamp - but to get exactly what I want (as well as a better quality headset), would I be better off pairing a decent non-gaming-specific wireless stereo headset with the mixamp? In this scenario, I'm thinking that there would be a better chance of being able to have it all: A good quality over-ear, open-backed, standard stereo wireless headset paired with the mixamp for full retro and modern surround support. Also, that way I could avoid dedicated gaming headsets which tend not to be very good apparently.

In that case, apart from the mixamp, all I'm looking for is a good quality stereo wireless headset - much more choice..


Am I off base here? Having to research and learn quickly to keep up with the thread!

[gray117]

I believe PLII is backwards compatible with PLI since it's essentially the same, but is basically an improved technique that interprets extra
separation for more channels above PLI's 4 channels, so PLII can be make up an output mix for up to 7.1 systems.

Receivers might have a discreet PLI setting I think simply due to mixing to a different speaker layout...

I've no idea how they do this, and whether what comes out the headphone jack should really just be the same for PLI as PLII .. or whether they should ideally sound a little different... I suspect they sound/are the same, and that the PLI speaker mix, as well as the headphone mix, are just made from the full PLII separations.

[andykara2003]

Thanks! What do you think about pairing a high-ish quality non-gaming stereo wireless headset with the mixamp?

[Chocograph]

I also suggest you read up on the Kingston Hyper X Cloud 2 because they got great reviews. Apparently the sound is very clear.

A lot of people use non-gaming stereo headphones with the mixamp. My general impression from what I've read on forums is it's a very popular combo.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that - the kingstons do look very nice although not wireless or open backed. If I want those aspects, then I guess the next step is to find some wireless headphones. obviously they'll have to have a receiver to plug into the Mixamp. I don't know much about this - is RF wireless the way so go or bluetooth for this application?

[andykara2003]

UPDATE: (Sorry for double post)

Searching the forums the consensus seems to be that all the newer mixamps seem to be worse than the original 2010 version. Trouble is that older version doesn't work well with the PS4. Damnit going around in circles here.

[Ed Oscuro]

Just my $0.02:

Audio Technica makes some good headphones for not a lot of money. I've reverted to using my "old" ATH-A900X set as my newer stereo headphones' band has broken due to a weak design and I need to send it in. But you can get fairly great sound quality for well under $300 from them, and their recent monitor headphone release would be my favorite (with its unbiased sound) if not for that thin issue in the headband. Of course, I prefer closed headphones, though, so if you don't then you can get better sound for less.

[andykara2003]

Appreciate that :) I have to go with an open headset really though. I have an autistic daughter so I have to keep myself vaguely aware of sounds in the house in case anything happens. I definitely want to go with a headset rather than headphones as I'm going to be gaming with friends who use voice chat..

Having trawled various forums this evening, I've been put off the the idea of surround, mixamp etc. due to the minefield of potential issues.

So it's now boiled down to trying to find a decent over ear wireless headset that's open backed...

Or even a decent pair of wireless headphones in combination with a wireless headset-type microphone? Not sure if such a thing exists, I'll look into it.. This might be a way to avoid the dedicated gaming headsets altogether.

[Taiyaki]

In my opinion the most important this is to stick to open can headphones (seems like you already intend to do that), sound tends to be arguably better and for gaming where comfort for long long sessions is of great importance they have a huge advantage (doesn't get as hot, sticky or heavy on the ears).

I've used true Dolby surround headphones in the past back when Panasonic was making their high end models in Japan and they were great, but in my opinion having a superior stereo headphones like a mid to high range Sennheiser combined with a Dolby headphones simulator actually will give even better results, and for a lot less.


The setup goes like this:

Headphones hooked up to the surround adapter, then the adapter hooked up to the tv via the digitial audio out (toslink cable). Pretty simple really.

For retro I just don't bother with an adapter, really doesn't need it in my opinion.


The problem is having a mid on the headphone usually means the batch of headphones you can pick from is going to much more limited. Unless you use it a ton I would buy one without and just get an external mic to use separately when needed.

Edit: I re read and saw you liked wireless headphones. Can't really advise on those. I've used them in the past but I've always had more issues than I'd like with them so I ended up going back to wired ones.

[andykara2003]

Thanks for that Taiyaki - can I ask which surround adapter you use? I'd be interested if there's something similar to the mixamp in versatility but without the problems. Maybe the only ultimate answer is to use a proper receiver? In that case I probably won't bother & listen in stereo. A few of the guys here are saying that's the best way anyway so I might save some money & do that in the end..

Definitely thinking now that using a 'separate headphones and microphone' setup in a headset type configuration looks to be the way forward over a headset - I'll look into that now..


EDIT: I think I've found the perfect mic! The antlion mod mic 4.0 is a bit pricy (£40) but gets very good reviews for its design and sound quality. It attaches to any headphones - I like the design of the magnetic attachment so it can be removed from the headphones any time. I'd have to go with a wired setup but I think the resulting sound and mic quality would probably be much higher than using most headsets. Although not open backed, I have a pair of Sennheiser HD25 headphones I can test it out on for now.

[FBX]

I don't know about surround sound, but I personally love the Sony MDR-V6 headphones. I've got a pair I've been using for 15 years and it still sounds better than anything else I've tried.

[gray117]

Problem for andy kara is one to setup to rule them all though. Wireless + mic is a bit of fcking mess on new consoles with/out a receiver. I can see how people just go a50 to solve the headache...

I don't really know anything about astro's mixamp, but I don't think they can be paired wirelessly? Can they do analogue PL in?

I suppose you might be able wire the mixamp in analogue to a wireless transmitter to go to a wireless headset+mic but I don't really know a wireless headset+mic combo that comes with an analogue in - they're all usb (presume to be self powered)... there's some wireless headsets with analogue hook up, but pretty sure none of them have mics ... so you might be able to wireless headset+mixamp but then have to have a wired mic clipped to jumper or something?... unless anyone can recommend anything?

The real benefit/workaround for the mixamp is that it's a licensed dac with a licensed headphone+mic to usb converter... unless what's the mini usb on the mixamp for? ... Could you connect your usb headphone and mic to that or is it just for pc audio/going back to console? ... where's the manual for this thing ?

[Taiyaki]

Thanks for that Taiyaki - can I ask which surround adapter you use? I'd be interested if there's something similar to the mixamp in versatility but without the problems. Maybe the only ultimate answer is to use a proper receiver? In that case I probably won't bother & listen in stereo. A few of the guys here are saying that's the best way anyway so I might save some money & do that in the end..

Definitely thinking now that using a 'separate headphones and microphone' setup in a headset type configuration looks to be the way forward over a headset - I'll look into that now..


EDIT: I think I've found the perfect mic! The antlion mod mic 4.0 is a bit pricy (£40) but gets very good reviews for its design and sound quality. It attaches to any headphones - I like the design of the magnetic attachment so it can be removed from the headphones any time. I'd have to go with a wired setup but I think the resulting sound and mic quality would probably be much higher than using most headsets. Although not open backed, I have a pair of Sennheiser HD25 headphones I can test it out on for now.

The product I use is the Earforce DSS. It's a rival product to the Mixamp, both have a couple advantages over the other, however the Earforce DSS is no longer produced and was replaced with the DSS2, an inferior product (only has 4 directional surround instead of proper dolby headphones simulation).


To be completely honest I would ALWAYS recommend a wired setup unless you're absolutely determined to go wireless for convenience or style. Wired will always be superior sound quality wise.


The other worth mentioning advantage of using a Mixamp style adapter is that you can take advantage of this setup for movies. If you hook up the mixamp to the audio out of your tv it will work on all devices including blu ray, and I can tell you it's really fantastic for movies as well.


With these Surround simulation devices it's the headphones themselves that improve the accessory leaps and bounds. In other words the headphones will be the bottleneck of the setup. Testing it which cheaper headphones it may not sound impressive, but put on a pair of higher end cans and you'll be forgetting you're wearing headphones. It will feel like you're in an an actual room with multi directional channels!


I don't have the links on hand but if you go to Youtube there are some dolby headphone simulation videos which will give a similar experience so that you can try watching the videos with your current headphones and most likely that's what it will sound like when you use your mixamp style device.

EDIT: Here's an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVdgMQC2rYM

[lev11]

@mikejmoffitt how big are the cans on the Grados mentioned above. They seem to be branded as over the ear, but there's no specs online and they look smaller, do they rest on the ear?

[BONKERS]

Surround sound headphones is/are an oxymoron/marketing gimmick. Stereo headphones are the only thing worth looking at, especially considering the surround ones are marketed towards "gamers" and are awful brands like Turtle Beach with numerous design flaws and not that great audio quality. I would recommend you look at some entry-level AKG or Sennheiser headphones, or any other brands (other than Bose) that sell no-frills stereo headphones (i.e. no attached microphone) aimed at studios.

If you want to sacrifice some quality for connection capabilities you might end up at Turtle Beach or maybe Sony headphones for the PS4 connectivity, I don't know the details on that end of things. Some kind of DAC would probably be needed? Does the PS4 still even have a separate TOSLINK connector?

Actually there are some legitimate attempts at surround sound using Binaural Audio such as Dolby Headphone. Many Yamaha AVRs have one called Silent Cinema.
In my experiences they are really good for that they are. I've had a Pioneer SEDIR-800C for over a decade and have always loved it despite the shitty headphones it came with. I have had two of them and both broke physically in some way very very easily very quick after I bought them. When I have used them, i've had to re-tape them together several times a year.
And if you are willing to spend huge $$$ there is this

http://smyth-research.com/technology.html
I wish I could get one of these, minus the head tracking. (Which could be disabled)

For Retro Games though they are pointless, they are really only geared towards modern surround sound stuff.


For Retro stuff, connect them all up to a headphone AMP/DAC and just look for good stereo ones that fit your needs.
http://www.rtings.com/headphones