Nes rgb with composite colors?

[Pasky]

Ya that color being off is from the YUV conversion on the ElGato, there isn't enough bandwidth to pass uncompressed RGB at 1080p. You'd need something like a datapath DVI-DL to avoid that (they're expensive).

[Guspaz]

What doesn't have enough bandwidth? All versions of HDMI at high speed can do 1080p60 at a full 24-bit depth, and compression is done on the capture device itself.

[FBX]

Here's a working palette of the YUV combination idea:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fbx ... omized.zip

Basically it takes the core purple-red-brown-olive colors from the YUV palette and combines them with direct-capture green-cyan-blue-purple colors and throws in a few tweaks.

Games look pretty good so far that I've tested, but I could use some outside look perspectives on it. Just remember that the redder browns and more brownish greens are intended as the alternative look.

...It's...it's glorious

For real though, this amalgam of the best of Nestopia YUV values, and your own Direct capture values in areas that Nestopia was deficient (plus a few tweaks as you said), looks phenomenal in every game I've thrown at it. Rectifying the brownish-greens from your DC Final now looks much improved, and the slightly reddish-browns from Nestopia YUV really liven it up. Faxanadu on my setup with stock hardware has the buildings looking more yellowish-brown in the first town, but I actually prefer the reddish-brown values from Nestopia YUV for this game.

I'd love to hear additional perspectives if others are as content with this effort as I am, or if anyone thinks there's room for improvement. If not, I'd love to have this available in a custom firmware, maybe simply refereed to as the "FBX palette", as it's no longer solely a directly calibrated palette.

For my two cents, I can't find any area that would benefit further tweaking; I'm prepared to be silent and niggle no more

You might want to re-download that particular palette as I made a change to one of the blue-purple values and had to re-upload the palette (sorry about that).

Anyway, I'm in the process of redesigning my web site on the project, which will offer 4 palette selections:

1. FBX-NES-Framemeister-Saturated (confirmed as looking identical to a stock front-loading NES hooked into a Framemeister at default settings)

2. FBX-NES-Framemeister-Unsaturated (more tonally consistent and probably better for CRT setups, but retains the Framemeister's greenish 'pull' on brown and olive colors)

3. FBX-NES-Nostalgia (my 'eyeballed' palette based on memory and physically looking at test screens)

4. FBX-NES-YUV-Customized (the Nestopia YUV palette edited and combined with the green-cyan-blues of the Framemeister palette)

This pretty much covers all reasonable interpretations: You've got the eyeballed version, the pure direct-captures, and the amalgam customized palette.

I'll post an update when the site is finished with new comparison pics.

[FBX]

Just got done arranging a grid sheet of all the major palettes I made next to the original Nestopia YUV palette. Order is as follows:

YUV >>> Nostalgia >>> Customized >>> Framemeister Saturated

First the raw PNG image:




Now what's interesting to note is is how generally close everything seems to be at first glance, with of course the exception of the Nostalgia palette having a much higher contrast ratio due to being based on looking at a screen physically with the human eye. Aside from that, I noticed the Framemeister saturated actually looks pretty close to the original YUV, except for just a few entries. In the image below, I marked the Framemeister deviation from the 'expected norm' in pink, and then I marked the YUV deviation from the expected norm in yellow:



So what I'm thinking it should be a simple matter of swapping the pink entries out of the Framemeister palette for the original YUV palette. That way, no interpretation is left to the human eye, and every color is still some sort of hardware-based capture.

Thoughts?

Edit: Tried it and it threw off hue transitions. Ended up having to swap half the palette entries to balance it, which is more like the Customized palette I already made. Then I thought about merely making the same YUV palette with just the cyan entries swapped, but some of those better sky blues are lost from the Framemeister palette, and I'm back to the customized palette all over again.

[Ripthorn]

Everyone here is talking about NTSC color accuracy, but why not use PAL or PAL-M as reference? PAL has a much better color accuracy.

For switchless (gamepad controlled) palette switching and in game reset, I farm out Borti's NESRGBIGR board to OSHPark and build them up.

Excellent little PCB.

http://i68.tinypic.com/sgpqf7.jpg

Two new palette variations. I haven't tested them.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fa ... xunsat.pof
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fa ... fbxsat.pof

Thanks a lot, Tim. We really appreciate the continued support for the NESRGB.

Where I can find this board with all components installed and ready to use?

PS: I don't know how the hell you guys can play Castlevania and others games with Player's Choice PPU pallete. Simon with yellow fever? No thanks

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

2. FBX-NES-Framemeister-Unsaturated (more tonally consistent and probably better for CRT setups, but retains the Framemeister's greenish 'pull' on brown and olive colors)

I love your unsaturated palette, but it would be interesting to see if eliminating the Framemeister from the capture equation would correct the grenish pull, as it's not evidenced for me on a CRT with stock hardware (did your Avermedia Composite Converter come in? Any difference?).

It would be awesome if the unsaturated palette could be adjusted in this way, because as you said, I see this palette really standing out with use on CRTs, so it doesn't make much sense IMHO to base some of it's values on a device (Framemeister) that inherently skews some colours away from what you'd expect on a CRT.

[FBX]

2. FBX-NES-Framemeister-Unsaturated (more tonally consistent and probably better for CRT setups, but retains the Framemeister's greenish 'pull' on brown and olive colors)

I love your unsaturated palette, but it would be interesting to see if eliminating the Framemeister from the capture equation would correct the grenish pull, as it's not evidenced for me on a CRT with stock hardware (did your Avermedia Composite Converter come in? Any difference?).

It would be awesome if the unsaturated palette could be adjusted in this way, because as you said, I see this palette really standing out with use on CRTs, so it doesn't make much sense IMHO to base some of it's values on a device (Framemeister) that inherently skews some colours away from what you'd expect on a CRT.

Sadly the avermedia composite converter was a total bust. Colors were so dark as to be unusable for measuring hue value differences. $35 wasted, but it was worth a try.

At any rate, the most simple solution I came up with was to simply adjust 4 entries in the YUV palette that were the most 'off' looking (corrections highlighted in red):



I have to admit it works quite well just correcting those 4 entries. Here's the zip if you want to try it:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/yuvcorrected.zip

[FBX]

I decided the above solution was so simplistic that I've scrapped all previous efforts in favor of it. Everything else I've tried has been tainted by capture error (green pull on the Framemeister for example), so I've updated the project page demonstrating how the 4-entry correcting applies in-game:

http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

It's really ironic to come nearly full circle like this, but in then end, those were the biggest complaints I had of the YUV palette to being with.

[bobrocks95]

I don't hold anything against you for trying to make a more accurate palette FBX, but I'm sure you realize how outright hilarious that conclusion is after numerous people's doubts.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

I decided the above solution was so simplistic that I've scrapped all previous efforts in favor of it. Everything else I've tried has been tainted by capture error (green pull on the Framemeister for example), so I've updated the project page demonstrating how the 4-entry correcting applies in-game:

http://www.firebrandx.com/nespalette.html

It's really ironic to come nearly full circle like this, but in then end, those were the biggest complaints I had of the YUV palette to being with.

Yeah, those four entries remedy all of the initial complaints surrounding the Nestopia YUV. Somewhere along the line the scope of these fundamental corrections expanded beyond that to investigate all colour entries, but this solution is comparatively straightforward and sufficient.

Personally, I prefer your YUV Customized palette that is an amalgam of Nestopia with your own values to your YUV Corrected, as the blues look a little darker and richer (among other things). I as well love the Unsaturated Direct capture palette for that retro-dim CRT look. If you could manually tweak the Framemeister's greenish-brown bias (as evidenced in Contra), that would be my go-to.

I guess if we're going to proposition Tim to release one final custom firmware, we're going to have to decide on the 3 palette entries. For what it's worth, my vote would be for: 1. Direct Capture Unsaturated 2. YUV Customized 3. PC10. I'm curious what others interested in this think.

[darcagn]

I guess if we're going to proposition Tim to release one final custom firmware, we're going to have to decide on the 3 palette entries. For what it's worth, my vote would be for: 1. Direct Capture Unsaturated 2. YUV Customized 3. PC10. I'm curious what others interested in this think.

I don't see the point in wasting palette entries on multiple palettes that attempt to mimic the stock NTSC palette.

It should be yuvcorrected/Improved/PC10.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

I guess if we're going to proposition Tim to release one final custom firmware, we're going to have to decide on the 3 palette entries. For what it's worth, my vote would be for: 1. Direct Capture Unsaturated 2. YUV Customized 3. PC10. I'm curious what others interested in this think.

I don't see the point in wasting palette entries on multiple palettes that attempt to mimic the stock NTSC palette.

It should be yuvcorrected/Improved/PC10.

The perceived intention of said palettes is irrelevant; DC Unsaturated and YUV Customized look very different and thus merit inclusion as an "alternative" to the standard palette switch.

[darcagn]

I guess if we're going to proposition Tim to release one final custom firmware, we're going to have to decide on the 3 palette entries. For what it's worth, my vote would be for: 1. Direct Capture Unsaturated 2. YUV Customized 3. PC10. I'm curious what others interested in this think.

I don't see the point in wasting palette entries on multiple palettes that attempt to mimic the stock NTSC palette.

It should be yuvcorrected/Improved/PC10.

The perceived intention of said palettes is irrelevant; DC Unsaturated and YUV Customized look very different and thus merit inclusion as an "alternative" to the standard palette switch.

The intention of the palettes is the entire point. Just because some palettes look "very different" doesn't mean they merit inclusion. If I make a "negative palette" that reverses every color in the palette it would "look very different" but does that mean it should be included? The palette switch is intended to be a functional switch, not your personal playground of palettes. Unless Tim comes up with a way for us to customize the palettes in the firmware ourselves, it should continue to be a functional switch.

[Guspaz]

What do you care what other people set their palettes to? You can use what you want, and they can use what they want. You trying to dictate to them what they put on their NESRGBs is a bit much.

[darcagn]

What do you care what other people set their palettes to?

I don't care what people set their palettes to.

You can use what you want, and they can use what they want.

Nobody is using any special palettes without going through Tim first, which, if you reread my post, you may deduce is my point. It's unfair to ask Tim to make a wide variety of firmwares with myriad palette combinations just so Atomik Punk can have whatever colors he fancies on a given day. On the other hand, if the NESRGB palette that promises to be like the stock palette is off, then we would have a bit of an expectation that Tim would want to fix that issue.

So, I'll repeat: Unless Tim comes up with a way for us to customize the palettes in the firmware ourselves,* it should continue to be a functional switch.

* This is the part that indicates that I don't care what people set their palettes to.

[Guspaz]

He's already produced most of these firmwares that people want, there would appear to just be one last one.

You also forget that these people paid Tim. He is not doing this as a volunteer, he charged them a hundred bucks each. He's not obligated to do firmware updates, but it's good business.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

The perceived intention of said palettes is irrelevant; DC Unsaturated and YUV Customized look very different and thus merit inclusion as an "alternative" to the standard palette switch.

The intention of the palettes is the entire point. Just because some palettes look "very different" doesn't mean they merit inclusion. If I make a "negative palette" that reverses every color in the palette it would "look very different" but does that mean it should be included? The palette switch is intended to be a functional switch, not your personal playground of palettes. Unless Tim comes up with a way for us to customize the palettes in the firmware ourselves, it should continue to be a functional switch.

Firstly, the two palettes in question (DC Unsaturated and YUV Customized) don't have the same intention, as the latter is a simple adjustment of the Nestopia YUV palette to adjust four values, while the former is an attempt at an extensively calibrated inquiry into reproducing stock NES colours. For this reason they offer very different experiences; one is essentially a small update to Nestopia's YUV colour entries that can be agreed to be "off", and the other aimed to recreate the vanilla NES experience as close reasonably possible.

Secondly, aren't you one of the detractors of FBX's initiative from the beginning- what do you care which palettes are made available? You do realize that this is an optional firmware update (read not mandatory) for those desiring something other than the default choices, right? No one's coming to "take your palettes away" pal. I really couldn't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what palettes you like, but don't slander me as if this is the sole interest of one person.

[Skips]

He's already produced most of these firmwares that people want, there would appear to just be one last one.

You also forget that these people paid Tim. He is not doing this as a volunteer, he charged them a hundred bucks each. He's not obligated to do firmware updates, but it's good business.

Actually more like 69-94 depending on the console model. The AUD conversion is total shit for Australians right now if you are a US, UK, or European customer buying from him.

[darcagn]

He's already produced most of these firmwares that people want, there would appear to just be one last one.

You also forget that these people paid Tim. He is not doing this as a volunteer, he charged them a hundred bucks each. He's not obligated to do firmware updates, but it's good business.

I've purchased five or six NESRGBs myself. This isn't a firmware update, it's essentially a firmware feature request. As Tim said earlier in the thread:

In the past I have made special builds of the software for people who have asked for NESRGB boards with their own palettes included. If it is so important that you create your own palette, then fine. But I don't want to do this on a regular basis.

...which indicates to me that he really doesn't want to be bothered with doing this a bunch. And I don't blame him. I don't forget that we all paid Tim. However he is developing these mods, documenting them, producing them, distributing them, and supporting them virtually by himself. That's a lot of time spent, and it's a small business, so I don't pretend that just because we paid him that he has unlimited resources to dedicate to making special palette firmware.

Ideally it would be awesome if we could edit the palette data ourselves, but until that happens, we should respect Tim's time constraints when asking for new features.

[darcagn]

Secondly, aren't you one of the detractors of FBX's initiative from the beginning-

Does this sound like a detractor:

I have no problem if FBX makes new palettes to try to get closer to the look of the output of the NTSC decoders he owns. Better for the community if people like you and others find that it's closer to your NTSC decoders as well.

My only criticism is that he was trying to make a perfect palette which just isn't possible... and he seems to have come to that conclusion himself now, no?

what do you care which palettes are made available?

I'm interested in what firmware will be available if additional firmware is made available, doesn't that seem to indicate that I may, perhaps, be installing the firmware, no? Like I said, nothing wrong with trying to improve the palette.

You do realize that this is an optional firmware update (read not mandatory) for those desiring something other than the default choices, right? No one's coming to "take your palettes away" pal. I really couldn't give two tugs of a dead dog's cock what palettes you like, but don't slander me as if this is the sole interest of one person.

Is it really that hard for you to read my posts? If so, I'm sorry. I didn't know that comprehension was so challenging for you.

[Voultar]

To be perfectly honest. I don't understand this senseless exchange over what merits there are for someone to go and tweak an NES color palette.

I understand the idea of creating a more honest color palette in relation to how one may interpret the PPU's stock composite output. That's simply all this is.

Nobody has to download it, nobody has to flash their firmware for it. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, great.

Tim chooses to support the NESRGB upon his own accord. As I understand, he's sold a couple thousand NESRGB kits (rough ball-park) Out of that couple of thousand, a small handful (maybe a dozen) have approached Tim and requested a special palette. That's quite a small number of demand in comparison to the volume that's been sold. I seriously doubt that the couple of palette request-entries have monopolized Tim's time. But none of that makes any difference, whatsoever. It's Tim's decision to add these extended features. Tim's perfectly capable of deciding for himself if, whether or not, these firmware requests are out of reason. Nobody needs to make that decision for Tim, but Tim... He's a grown man. The community (those who prefer this sampled palette) are quite appreciative of him doing so.

Who really cares to even argue about this?

This thread has turned into a hair splitting contest.

[Skips]

Since the thread is off topic bitching about stupid shit here's an appreciation post of the best palette ever.

http://i.imgur.com/lenk6Sv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u3yfFVq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IZb2Tof.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jxCsqC5.jpg

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

This thread has turned into a hair splitting contest.

No question. I still think there's nothing wrong with speculation, but as I've said originally we should respect Tim's time and wait until we have the option to update palette data ourselves. At FBX's request, Tim was gracious enough to already release two (?) firmware variations, so I'm in no way suggesting that we should push Tim for another one now.

Ideally it would be awesome if we could edit the palette data ourselves, but until that happens, we should respect Tim's time constraints when asking for new features.

Agreed, and I've never suggested otherwise.

Like I said, nothing wrong with trying to improve the palette.

Listen, we fundamentally have similar positions. You can take issue with the content of my statements, but It's completely uncalled for for you to resort to personal attacks on my intelligence over such a trivial matter. I apologize if you found any of my comments insulting, it certainly wasn't my intention. There's no reason we cannot conduct ourselves in a more courteous way going forward.

Since the thread is off topic bitching about stupid shit here's an appreciation post of the best palette ever.

http://i.imgur.com/lenk6Sv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/u3yfFVq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IZb2Tof.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jxCsqC5.jpg

Nice pics skips- are you trying to show of colours, or scanlines
I think that's the DC Final Unsaturated???

[mikejmoffitt]

Is that the HDMI NES palette? I've been messing with the kit I have here. I think it looks generally good, but all of the reds are very dull in comparison to the screaming-bright greens.

[Skips]

That is the playchoice 10 palette.

[Skips]

Is that the HDMI NES palette? I've been messing with the kit I have here. I think it looks generally good, but all of the reds are very dull in comparison to the screaming-bright greens.

You mean the ones in my pictures? Its the playchoice 10 palette. My camera just sucks at picking up reds and blues so it heavily subdues reds and typically lets blue drown stuff out. It also gets darker farther to the right since its a 55 inch TV and I am shooting from an angle.

[atheistgod1999]

That is the playchoice 10 palette.

You know what? Looking at it again, I actually think it looks perfect.

[mikejmoffitt]

I see - your camera must be why I thought it was the HDMI NES one. I have an HDMI-modded NES (Kevtris's kit) and the palettes have been the only real complaint I've had among an otherwise great mod. The very narrow scanline gaps you have look a lot like the scanlines the HDMI NES outputs too!

[Skips]

I see - your camera must be why I thought it was the HDMI NES one. I have an HDMI-modded NES (Kevtris's kit) and the palettes have been the only real complaint I've had among an otherwise great mod. The very narrow scanline gaps you have look a lot like the scanlines the HDMI NES outputs too!

Yeah the palettes on the HDMI NES were pretty disappointing. I don't have one but I got to see one, the PC10 palette was the only good looking one to me. The scanlines are really thin because I am in DVI mode in 1080p with the zoom set to 90. It gives it that perfect overscan look with perfectly even scanlines. The scanlines are kinda thin but still look good. Doing this also makes it so you don't have to adjust the height when switching from other consoles to the neo-geo which is really nice. At first I did not care for the looks of it but it grew on me and I think it looks pretty good now. On my PC monitor its sharpness and clarity is super freaking close to the HDMI NES so I opted to stick with the XRGB setup over doing the HDMI NES. I still personally like the NESRGB more, mostly because what I have looks great already and the NESRGB currently fits in an original Famicom.

[Skips]

Colors are still a little subdued because the camera but I took pictures of it running on my Dell IPS monitor instead of the HDTV. Took some screens of the FBX unsaturated palette running as well so people can see them both and so its sorta on topic.