OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[bobrocks95]

PS2 users would seem to be better off using component video

Too noisy especially on PS1 games I've found.

What about using a component cable but outputting an RGsB signal? Or is sync-on-green not possible in 15 KHz?

[Fudoh]

Or is sync-on-green not possible in 15 KHz?

[/quote]
yep, you get RGBs for 15khz and RGsB for 31khz.

[Ed Oscuro]

I never had any picture problems using a PS2 slim for PlayStation games. 90000 model, I think.

[SGGG2]

From a market volume perspective, we're looking at about 7,000 FMs sold till today. Numbers will probably remain steady till 10,000, but that's a number that a successor product can't reach this easily. It's tough sell to get people to upgrade from the FM. Micomsoft already has the tech to build a simpler processor (much like Marqs's OSSC) and we suggested it quite some time ago - even before Marqs started working on this project. The OSSC is great, but the numbers won't hurt Micomsoft and as long as people buy a 38,000 yen processor, Micomsoft won't release a 20,000 yen alternative.

Hopefully this pushes them into developing a 4K scaler with custom pixelshaders.

[marqs]

Well if it is indeed as easy as you say, consider adding support.
(I was referring to the Playstation 2 VGA cable as mentioned above when I asked) But include the format mainly for completeness sake, considering someone else will probably ask for this feature again later down the line.

Additionally you could add a dropdown box for JP-21/Scart on the pre order form, to gauge interest: (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1RPMoXK ... 4/viewform)

RGsB on VGA and DDC 5V (with a resettable fuse) will be implemented on next revision PCB. That said, support for both is still relatively easy to add on current revision PCB which I now have a few copies and planned to offer those for first DIY-kit reservers who want to get one on their hands ASAP. The case still needs to be updated but otherwise hardware side of this project is pretty much complete - I'll write an update mail to all who have signed on the reservation list later today.

Regarding JP-21, manufacturing may be viable only if more than 50 would order that. The reservation list was meant to get numbers only for initial batches, after which the device will be most likely available through other channels.

[BitFaced]

Signed up on the originally listed pre-order form. That's the correct place, right?

[BazookaBen]

Random question for Marqs:

Not sure if you're familiar with the Xbox version of Soul Calibur 2, but it has a 720p mode that is actually a pillar-boxed 960x720 image inside a 1280x720 frame. Any chance your device would be able to chop off those sides to give a proper 960x720 for 4:3 monitors?

[lettuce]

Regarding the Email Markus is sending out,....

"Q: HDMI/DVI/VGA output
A: DIY kits include a PCB designed for HDMI connector (video only), but
pre-assembled boards will have DVI-D connector due to HDMI licensing
restrictions. VGA output is possible with an active converter - more
information will be added to wiki."

So does this mean even the DIY boards with the HDMI socket wont carry audio just video?

[Guspaz]

No version of this board will do anything with audio. You will need to handle that yourself, either by using SCART cables with RCA audio outputs, or using an HDMI audio injector.

[Xyga]

Or just sing/hum/whistle while playing.

[marqs]

Random question for Marqs:

Not sure if you're familiar with the Xbox version of Soul Calibur 2, but it has a 720p mode that is actually a pillar-boxed 960x720 image inside a 1280x720 frame. Any chance your device would be able to chop off those sides to give a proper 960x720 for 4:3 monitors?

Yeah, I remember seeing SC2 running at pillarboxed HD... Advanced users are able to modify some output mode parameters including sync/backporch/active lengths, which allow tweaking both image position and active area size. While these don't change horizontal/vertical timing, setting the active area smaller than default causes compatible monitors to display only that area (basically a digital equivalent of size knob in CRT monitors). The same trick could be also used to get rid of black borders in 50Hz conversions.

[BazookaBen]

Yeah, I remember seeing SC2 running at pillarboxed HD... Advanced users are able to modify some output mode parameters including sync/backporch/active lengths, which allow tweaking both image position and active area size. While these don't change horizontal/vertical timing, setting the active area smaller than default causes compatible monitors to display only that area (basically a digital equivalent of size knob in CRT monitors). The same trick could be also used to get rid of black borders in 50Hz conversions.

Hmmm, so does that mean whenever you decrease the active area, front and back porch automatically increase? Because I think for my PC CRT I would need to keep the front and back porch small while decreasing active area. Creating a huge front/back porch would probably look the same as running the original 1280x720.

Being able to cut active area would also help with running certain PS2 games in 480p with GS Mode Selector. Okami, Odin Sphere, and Katamari Damacy all look squished horizontally, so much so that I can't fix it with my geometry controls.

[bobrocks95]

Hmmm, so does that mean whenever you decrease the active area, front and back porch automatically increase? Because I think for my PC CRT I would need to keep the front and back porch small while decreasing active area. Creating a huge front/back porch would probably look the same as running the original 1280x720.

Being able to cut active area would also help with running certain PS2 games in 480p with GS Mode Selector. Okami, Odin Sphere, and Katamari Damacy all look squished horizontally, so much so that I can't fix it with my geometry controls.

Kingdom Hearts does the same thing, I think it's because they have low-res backbuffers that are normally upscaled to the front buffer's standard resolution. Makes GSM kinda useless on a plasma without an external scaler of some kind where I don't want to get uneven wear on the cells. Maybe there's some simple scaler that could solve the issue, dunno. The principle applies here, though the issue I'm guessing would be monitor compatibility.

[marqs]

Hmmm, so does that mean whenever you decrease the active area, front and back porch automatically increase?

Yes.

Because I think for my PC CRT I would need to keep the front and back porch small while decreasing active area. Creating a huge front/back porch would probably look the same as running the original 1280x720.

This method doesn't apply to analog video (e.g. if output is converted to VGA) since there's no data enable signal there which could tell the display which part of a scanline is active video data.

Being able to cut active area would also help with running certain PS2 games in 480p with GS Mode Selector. Okami, Odin Sphere, and Katamari Damacy all look squished horizontally, so much so that I can't fix it with my geometry controls.

Kingdom Hearts does the same thing, I think it's because they have low-res backbuffers that are normally upscaled to the front buffer's standard resolution. Makes GSM kinda useless on a plasma without an external scaler of some kind where I don't want to get uneven wear on the cells. Maybe there's some simple scaler that could solve the issue, dunno. The principle applies here, though the issue I'm guessing would be monitor compatibility.

Could it be that these low-res (e.g. 512x448) games use a different video mode than standard-res games (640x448/480), since both have correct aspect at 15kHz? When forced into 31kHz with GSM, perhaps there's only a matching video mode for the latter, and when low-res games are displayed in this mode they cannot utilize the full area. Just my theory...

[cleeg]

Lots of lurking, first time posting! Assman on Sega - 16 referred me to this device, nice job too. I have filled in a form and am hoping to hear about this soon, just read about the scanlines and nearly wet my pants! I'm hoping this is going to be just the thing for my Saturn.

One quick question, I've read much of the thread but didn't see this anywhere; is the SCART audio pass through the only audio out on the board? And is it just a standard 5mm audio out jack?

Cheers.

[marqs]

One quick question, I've read much of the thread but didn't see this anywhere; is the SCART audio pass through the only audio out on the board? And is it just a standard 5mm audio out jack?

Yeah, a passthough was added for SCART so that no extra splitters are needed for connecting analog audio to AV receiver, TV etc. It's a standard 3.5mm jack - I would have prefererred 2xRCA connector (3.5mm jacks tend to get loose after many connect/disconnect cycles) but it would have taken too much space on the board.

[master_d]

what an awesome project. I just found out about this and read the whole thread . I had a question about the hdmi audio though. Would it be possible for me to buy the kit version and run the analog audio from the rc jack pins into an audio ADC on a daughter board and have it output directly on the hdmi audio pins? I guess what I'm asking is do I have to do anything other than provide a hdmi compatible PCM stream on the hdmi audio pin to get audio output to work or are there some more hoops that one must jump through to get audio working?

edit: Is there even a trace for hdmi audio on the pcb or did you leave that off?

[Unseen]

Would it be possible for me to buy the kit version and run the analog audio from the rc jack pins into an audio ADC on a daughter board and have it output directly on the hdmi audio pins?

There are no audio pins on an HDMI connector.

I guess what I'm asking is do I have to do anything other than provide a hdmi compatible PCM stream on the hdmi audio pin to get audio output to work or are there some more hoops that one must jump through to get audio working?

I can't find the post where marqs mentions which TMDS encoder chip he uses, but I seem to remember that it was a DVI-only chip. Since HDMI transmits audio by multiplexing it into the video signal, the encoder chip must support audio - you can't just add it later by soldering to some pins of the connector.

[Guspaz]

If you need to do that, just use an HDMI audio injector. Either a DVI+RCA or DVI+TOSLINK (PS2? Modded SNES? Any others?) one, they're pretty cheap. I think Monoprice charges $40 for them.

It'd be nice to have audio/video integrated into the product, to avoid the extra box/power brick, but that's not going to happen with HDMI for licensing reasons. Marqs mentioned he might look into DisplayPort in the future (Supports audio/video, cheap passive converters to almost anything else including HDMI, cheap licensing) but that's probably a very long way off.

[marqs]

I'm using IT6613 which supports both DVI and HDMI signaling. It accepts audio both in I2S and SPDIF formats where the latter would be easier to use as it is only a single pin on the IC. By lifting the pin and connecting a suitable audio ADC output to that, plus tweaking the firmware would make HDMI audio output possible. If I remember correctly, audio on HDMI is transmitted during hblank and using TMDS clock like video data. The datasheet mentions that the chip can automatically synchronize audio clock to TMDS clock, but I'm not sure how well that'd work if TMDS clock is not close to a typical value (e.g. if you're playing a 55Hz arcade game). In that case, you'd possibly need to calculate and program the ratios manually. I could test this with the development board at some point after getting the more important things done.

[master_d]

ahh ok. I didn't realize there was no separate audio pin.. shoulda read the hdmi spec before I posted. I guess if the firmware is tweaked so that the IT6613 ic can accept a PCM stream to interleave with the video maybe the folks that buy the diy kit can implement their own hdmi audio solution and get around the hdmi licensing? If so it would be nice to have a solder pad on the pcb for audio so we don't have to bend the pin back to solder to it directly... and if not, no big deal. It's still an awesome project with or without audio.

[BuckoA51]

and of course nothing stopping you using a HDMI audio injector.

[Markybhoy]

Just stumbled across this prokect, sounds really cool.

[Triple Lei]

I'm most interested in the quick 240p<->480i switching. If I get one of these, I'd really like to pair it with my DVDO Edge.

So my question is, when it's outputting 480p and the game switches between 240p and 480i, will the device output a constant 480p? Because even if this device switches quick, that doesn't mean the Edge can switch just as fast and I might as well not get this or an XRGB-3.

[cleeg]

One quick question, I've read much of the thread but didn't see this anywhere; is the SCART audio pass through the only audio out on the board? And is it just a standard 5mm audio out jack?

Yeah, a passthough was added for SCART so that no extra splitters are needed for connecting analog audio to AV receiver, TV etc. It's a standard 3.5mm jack - I would have prefererred 2xRCA connector (3.5mm jacks tend to get loose after many connect/disconnect cycles) but it would have taken too much space on the board.

Thankyou for your reply, just one more quick question if you don't mind... I am picking up a Wii soon and hear that component cables are the way to go with this console. If I were to buy a SCART RGB cable for it instead and run it through your scaler would this allow me to have a progressive scan out with audio? I'm thinking that this would give me the picture I want (RGB but with progressive scan and scanlines) and look better / as good than component straight to the TV.

I would also consider component from the Wii into your box, but I assume I would need to route the audio direct to my TV? One thing I have just thought: Could one plug the component video cables into your box, and route the audio cables into a composite to SCART connector and then into your scan doubler to allow the audio out minijack to be used?

[Fudoh]

If I were to buy a SCART RGB cable for it instead

with a Scart RGB cable your Wii is limited to 15khz output (240p and 480i).

Could one plug the component video cables into your box, and route the audio cables into a composite to SCART connector and then into your scan doubler to allow the audio out minijack to be used?

what's the point? Whatever audio sink you planned on connecting to the 3.5mm output, you can connect the same directly to the RCA/Cinch wires your component cable provides.

[cleeg]

Doh! Of course I can. It's nice to get a reply from you Fudoh, I read your site a lot. I think I'll just stick with component cables then.

[marqs]

I'm most interested in the quick 240p<->480i switching. If I get one of these, I'd really like to pair it with my DVDO Edge.

So my question is, when it's outputting 480p and the game switches between 240p and 480i, will the device output a constant 480p? Because even if this device switches quick, that doesn't mean the Edge can switch just as fast and I might as well not get this or an XRGB-3.

Depends what you mean by constant 480p. Even if the game switches the mode without interruption in the sync signal, the new output mode will have one scanline difference (525 vs 524/526) and usually refresh rate will also change by a tiny fraction of a Hz. I don't know if that causes Edge to lose sync, but the displays I've tested handle it pretty well without disturbing gameplay too much (unless one counts OSD popup as disturbance).

[BuckoA51]

I'll be testing with my DVDO Edge when I get my unit so I will let you know.

[Triple Lei]

Thanks. And on second thought, I'm pretty sure I'll be getting this over any XRGB.

With my setup there's value in having the scanlines in the middle of the equipment chain (before the DVDO Edge, anyway), rather than adding the scanlines just before the display. If my thinking is correct I'll have the proper size scanlines at 480p, I'd avoid the Edge's 240p ringing this way, and if I use the Edge's zoom features, I'd still be keeping the scanlines intact, which would be interesting...