Thread Split: Drakon's Modding

[Skips]

Just out of curiosity Leon, how much do you charge for a cartridge like that. Just the parts and services, not the cost of the game you have to use to make it.

[leonk]

Just out of curiosity Leon, how much do you charge for a cartridge like that. Just the parts and services, not the cost of the game you have to use to make it.

Since I started back in 2002, I've only charged $25. *BUT*, I only do NES/Famicom translations. They keep me busy enough. I've done SNES for friends, and myself only.

I find that in the past few years, all SNES reproductions now come out of China (Alibaba) for ~$15 or less per reproduction. Most SNES reproductions are now just reselling the China made copies .. much cheaper than soldering it yourself. I guess it's just a matter of time before they figure out how to make perfect reproductions of MMC3 or MMC5 and the NES gig will be done as well.. Or maybe not.. I find SNES to now be more popular than NES. Maybe the NES-era is behind us (Like Atari)

[Skips]

I meant more if you DID take one of those Starfox 2 carts that you linked as a service how much would you charge specifically for that one. Not so much if you actually offer them or not. I know there are cheap alternatives out there, I am more curious of the value you place on the time and effort for you to do it.

P.S. I'm not looking to commission one, I just want to know what the market value is for a professionally done one like that.

[Drakon]

I have to ask, Drakon... so why did you use so much hot glue?

This has been addressed already. I just didn't know what I was doing. I wasn't doing anything poorly on purpose like trolls would want you to believe.

Maybe a PCB like that can save some time too. Time is money.

If you are making many of these for paying customers, then yes. It will save you a lot of time! But if you're making only 1 off for yourself, it's cheaper to wire it up rather than order a custom PCB from a place like Osh Park. Many fabs have min order sizes, and given how small this board is, you'll end up getting about a dozen of them!

You also have to have pro tools and good technique to flow the daughter board adapter onto the original SMD pads.

That's a pretty cool idea thanks for posting that without being angry or adding unnecessary comments. My only complaint about something like this is that if you ever want to desolder the eprom and put in a different one I don't know if you could do that without unsoldering the sop adapter too. There wouldn't be enough space in there for a socket unfortunately. What I did appears to be easier for swapping the eprom down the road.

[leonk]

That's a pretty cool idea thanks for posting that without being angry or adding unnecessary comments. My only complaint about something like this is that if you ever want to desolder the eprom and put in a different one I don't know if you could do that without unsoldering the sop adapter too. There wouldn't be enough space in there for a socket unfortunately. What I did appears to be easier for swapping the eprom down the road.

The picture I posted is of just 1 adapter. I saw an even simpler adapter which converts from the SNES pinout to standard SMD flash pinout. In both cases all you need is a hot air rework station (40$ from China?) to remove the chip and solder on the new one. I've done this many times (e.g. replace BIOS on Sega Saturn with region free version). I can't begin to imagine trying to do that with wires! (we're talking 40 pins here!).

I've used the same technique to move MMC3 memory controller from 1 board to another (I needed a certain revision of the chip for a special reproduction). MMC3 chips are 4 sided chips with 11 pins per side (44 pins in total). Again, hot air rework is the only way you can do this.

Going back to SNES reproductions, IF I was still making them (which I don't due to much cheaper China made alternatives), using surface mount memory chips with adapters and rework station would be the only way I'd do it. No wires needed! Very clean, very professional looking. 1 chip can take the place of 4 for those bigger games.

[Drakon]

Pretty great ideas. I just got a rework station and it's 100x better than the heatgun I used to use. Using that heatgun was a horrible idea. I told my friend, who's way better at this stuff than me and who recommended I use the heatgun in the first place, that the rework station is much better than his suggestion and why. I wish there was an adapter that you could attach via regular soldering iron. Like something where one row of solder points aren't covered and the other is attached via a ribbon cable. I wonder if there would be enough space for something like that.

The adapter you posted above is for a 16mbit eprom not 8mbit. Is there a 8mbit one available?

[Guspaz]

You mean a hot air rework station? What's different about it from a heatgun?

[Drakon]

You mean a hot air rework station? What's different about it from a heatgun?

The ability to change temperature, air blowing strength, and even nozzle size. You really need all of these when using a tool like that.

[darcagn]

- no one who calls themselves a modder will ever use DIP EPROMs when SMD EPROMs and hole remapping PCBs exist. Yes. You can make those games without using a single electrical wire!

Those Star Fox 2 repros are made with SFX PCBs that use SMD maskroms, not DIP maskroms. Those hole-remapping PCBs thus are useless.

Here's I would have done it:

Spoiler

The switch changes between the Japanese prototype and English translation. This pcb design has been floating around since 2013.

That looks awesome! I stand corrected. I have never seen that kind of adapter board before, only the kind that uses a DIP style.

I've only done a handful of reproductions and only one of them was for someone other than myself so I have pretty much stuck to the "just use whatever parts I have laying around" method

[lev11]

Isn't that a picture of a DIP style eprom, how would that adapter board then be fitted to the smd pads it covers?

[leonk]

Isn't that a picture of a DIP style eprom, how would that adapter board then be fitted to the smd pads it covers?

Easy.. the PCB is etched in such a way that the SMD pads are visible (imagine 1/2 circles cut out) One than just puts blobs of solder between PCB and pads. It's a very common technique used in many installations.

[lev11]

Oh cool, cut-outs similar to the xenogc then, http://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=XenoGC

Is that eprom then just push fitted onto the new PCB, as it would seem to cover the cut-outs?

[leonk]

Oh cool, cut-outs similar to the xenogc then, http://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=XenoGC

Is that eprom then just push fitted onto the new PCB, as it would seem to cover the cut-outs?

The better version I've seen has SMD flash memory. So you install the PCB first and then solder the new memory chip to it. Your EPROM programmer just needs the SOP to DIP adapter ($20?) and your programmer needs to support that flash.

[Guspaz]

Oh cool, cut-outs similar to the xenogc then, http://www.gc-forever.com/wiki/index.php?title=XenoGC

Is that eprom then just push fitted onto the new PCB, as it would seem to cover the cut-outs?

Ah, finally something modding related that I have first-hand experience with!

The XenoGC and its "quick solder points" are a terrible design. They don't even remotely line up with the pads you're supposed to solder to (you see 1.5 pads through the hole and are supposed to avoid the half-pad, and they just love to bridge pads under the board that you can't see.

In the end I desoldered the thing and used wires, which worked fine. If they were going to do something as unreliable as these quick-solder points, they could at least have put them in the right place.

[lev11]

Ha yeah, I've wired a couple, but now I just cut out a small strip of kapton tape that covers the 3pads and just butts up to the edge of the two target pads. Then tin all the points that need soldering to, but not too much.

[Voultar]

Wireless XenoGC installs are very easy. Though, improper technique can easily get you into trouble quickly and yield a disastrous install.

I wrote a couple of articles regarding "botched" XenoGC installs, and how to recover them if you lift pads.


http://www.theisozone.com/forum/viewtop ... 41&t=45423

[Guspaz]

"Wireless XenoGC installs are very easy."

"wireless installs are an art, and it's very easy to get into trouble with that method."

Your statements are contradictory. The board is poorly designed, and they could have moved the holes around by fractions of a millimeter to avoid many of the problems. lev11's approach of using kapton tape would probably have helped, but I didn't have any at the time (nor do I now, since my order will have taken weeks to get here).

Of course, the lack of any real installation guide for the thing didn't help. All you'll find in picture form is some pictures saying which points to solder to, and not a single video available that shows the installation process close up or in focus.

In any event, I was able to desolder the board without lifting any pads, and just did a wired install, which was very easy.

[Voultar]

"Wireless XenoGC installs are very easy."

"wireless installs are an art, and it's very easy to get into trouble with that method."

Your statements are contradictory.

Let me reiterate what I said, as I clearly wasn't clear enough..

Wireless installs are easy, providing that the installer employs proper technique during installation. The art is merely technique.. It's standard fine pitch work. It isn't any different than any other rudimentary soldering. There isn't any contradiction.

Of course, the lack of any real installation guide for the thing didn't help. All you'll find in picture form is some pictures saying which points to solder to, and not a single video available that shows the installation process close up or in focus.

There's a plethora of instruction readily available on the internet for the install and the XenoGC in general... If you need a "video" tutorial or step-by-step guide for installing a Xeno-GC, you should probably refrain from installing the chip until you become more experienced with mod-work. The diagram is more than sufficient.

http://www.theisozone.com/forum/viewtop ... 41&t=42389

[Guspaz]

All diagrams there are for wired installs. The wired install is easy. Soldering a XenoGC wireless without bridging anything considering that the XenoGC holes are in the wrong place (they don't line up correctly with the pads) is not easy.

EDIT: OK, one diagram on that page does show the board lined up for wireless installation... and that's not at all what it looked like on mine. The holes for 6 and 10 were slightly closer together. Only a fraction of a millimeter, but enough that much more of the wrong pad would by present.

[Voultar]

All diagrams there are for wired installs. The wired install is easy. Soldering a XenoGC wireless without bridging anything considering that the XenoGC holes are in the wrong place (they don't line up correctly with the pads) is not easy.

EDIT: OK, one diagram on that page does show the board lined up for wireless installation... and that's not at all what it looked like on mine. The holes for 6 and 10 were slightly closer together. Only a fraction of a millimeter, but enough that much more of the wrong pad would by present.

lol Man, c'mon.. There are soo many XenoGC resources available. It's ridiculous how thoroughly documented it is..



The design of the XenoGC isn't to blame for botched installations. That comes down to poor soldering and alignment. Sorry if that offends you, but I've received dozens of "botched" XenoGC installs to recover as a result of improper soldering. The chip aligns perfectly fine, and if done correctly, you run very little risk of sweeping multiple pads on the drive controller board.

You really shouldn't blame the XenoGC PCB for improper technique and soldering work. A wireless install is the most painless mod-chip installation, next to the Sega Saturn. Just because it's easy to do, doesn't mean you can't easily get into trouble.

[Guspaz]

It wasn't an alignment issue, when I had my XenoGC positioned such that the top-right hole was showing the pads as it does in the photo there, more of the pad in the hole to the right of it was visible. If I moved it to the right, then the pad on the other side showed up.

Perhaps they are manufactured to poor tolerances, but the positioning of the holes in that photo does not exactly match that of mine. Certainly some of the parts on the XenoGC board were a bit crooked. Perhaps I had a knockoff.

[Voultar]

I'm aware of only one PCB being used for both V1, V2, and clone XenoGC's.

[Guspaz]

I don't know, then. The pads viewed through the holes in real life did not quite match what I could find in any photos. I'll readily admit that my technique was probably responsible for a good deal of the difficulty, but it also wasn't quite like the documentation.

EDIT: It looks like the positioning tolerance for drilling can be as bad as 0.15mm in certain manufacturers, which could certainly explain why mine looked off. I feel like I should have tinned the pads, stuck some flux on there, and then heated the joint, instead of trying to put the board in place and then add solder.

[Voultar]

I don't know, then. The pads viewed through the holes in real life did not quite match what I could find in any photos. I'll readily admit that my technique was probably responsible for a good deal of the difficulty, but it also wasn't quite like the documentation.

EDIT: It looks like the positioning tolerance for drilling can be as bad as 0.15mm in certain manufacturers, which could certainly explain why mine looked off. I feel like I should have tinned the pads, stuck some flux on there, and then heated the joint, instead of trying to put the board in place and then add solder.

There were revisions to the drive controller board post the XenoGC's release to help mitigate the XenoGC's "wireless" installation. Though, it's almost just as easy. Rather than flooding the pads with solder, you have to be more careful with solder and heat distribution. Look at point C. You can clearly see the copper from the adjacent pad through the hole there, it's unmolested.



^ This is a wireless XenoGC installation on one of the "troublesome" boards by me. Pay no attention to the Kynar wire. That was for an add-on mod I mocked up on the board for testing.

[Guspaz]

Hmm, the moment that I put any solder at all into the circular vias, it just wicked all around the hole, it didn't stay on one side.

[lev11]

Good info linked there Voultar, like Guspaz I find point C (&P) do easily fill rather than get one side only. Do you just use a tinned iron and drag or are are you feeding solder in?

[leonk]

I think this was already mentioned multiple times; flux is your friend. Every competent modder should have a flux pen and use it. I never connect wires to IC legs without fluxing it first. Flux 99% of the time prevents bridges.

[Voultar]

Good info linked there Voultar, like Guspaz I find point C (&P) do easily fill rather than get one side only. Do you just use a tinned iron and drag or are are you feeding solder in?

A very little bit of both. Position the chip, and make contact with the pad with your tinned tip without touching the solder walls of the XenoGC. Then, angle your tip to make contact with both the pad and the solder landing on the chip, a very small section of the landing. Very quickly, introduce maybe 1mm length of solder to the iron. This all must be done very quickly. By capillary action, you'll have a nice weld between only the desired pad and just a section of the landing on the chip.



From the 'ole junk workbench:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FebpnAhNb7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDooMmKcBwE

[Guspaz]

That first link doesn't work ("This video is private.")

[Voultar]

That first link doesn't work ("This video is private.")

Whoops.