Most ridiculous anti-shmup hogwash?

[Dylan1CC]

I recall on X-Play, Morgan was practically having an orgasm narcking on 2-D games because of how bad the game she was reviewing was (sorry, can't remember the name - was a contra style shooter that took place on a space station, and you had to wander a maze). She said things like "oh 2D is dead... this game proves that 2D is dead... I just can't believe that they'd make a 2D game... there's nothing left in 2D to be done... 2D is outdated, there's no way a 2D game can be fun anymore..."

About 20 episodes later, R-Type Final and Gradius V both score 4 out 5s.

I'm guessing Sessler is the balance in the "Force" in X-Play's case. Female game editors seem to think that in order to fit in or be taken seriously they have to run HOT!!! or COLD!!!! when giving their opinions. But because of this they end up looking inconsistent or even downright spazzy. At least she/they scored Final and Gradius nicely though. I also like that G4 at least shows a lot of footage of old school/import games like Alien Soldier (as a random example) in their "tribute" specials.

Another random annoying female quote is Jennifer Tsao's Bomberman DS review from a ways back. "Until now, I've never played Bomberman and I'm not a Bomberman fan but if I was I wouldn't be after this game." ha Wow.

Also, someone on TNL once commented that in one issue Tsao completely went over the top reaming out a GBA game for being "too cute." Yet in the same issue in their editors' picture section it shows her with a big smile surrounded by a bunch of plush Pikachu dolls.

Anyways, if you read a review by Bettenhausen or Dudlak I'd say you are in good hands. Anyone else...eh. Hmmmm.

edit: Also, on hikarutilmitt and others' experiences here, I don't understand why some are so turned off by a game just because it is 2D. If I walked into a gamestore and saw a title as colorful as Mushi with all those bullets being sprayed all over the screen, that would at least catch my passing interest even if I was completely ignorant of the genre. Glad I have always had an open mind.

[Turrican]

I think mainstream gamers have a pronbem with more arcade games. They are twitch, needs lots of skills and reflexes, and they aren't made for you to WIN. You are supposed to LOSE and LOSE and LOSE and LOSE up until after many tries, you eventually win. And there's of course, the graphics factor.

Now, usually most of my friends who are mainstream gamers don't make bad comments about shmups. If anyone sees me playing a shmup (or any other 2d game), and complains about the graphics, I usually always reply with "I don't want to look something beautiful, I want to PLAY THE GAME. If I wanted something beautiful I would be looking at a fucking painting.", which usually shut them up. If they complain the game is not realistic enough, I usually reply like "Yeah, like actually killing someone has anything to do with moving a mouse and pressing a button". And if they complain the game is too hard, I reply "Yeah, that's not for cry babies. You can go play your Final Fantasy games or whatever, this is for REAL MEN" (Yeah, it´s stupid, but it works ).

But in all honesty, most people I know actually respect the genre. They may complain the games are too hard, but they usually don't fault the genre for this, but their lack of skill .

And those days the son of my neighbours went here at my house (My mom was talking to his mother).. he's 12 years old, and I asked him if he wanted to play some games. He said yes, and then he asked me if I had GTA or Need for Speed.

I said I didn't have.... I actually put him to play Pro Evolution Soccer 5, as it is the most "mainstrean" game I own. He didn't like it too much, so he asked for some game where he could shoot stuff (Probably wanted something like Halo....)

I couldn't resist, and I put him to play Batrider... and while he credit feeded through the game, he was actually having LOTS of fun.. he was like "WOW... what kind of game is this?" I said it was as shmup, and he then said "Do you have more games like that?"... I showed him Battle Bakraid, and then he credit feeded through the game THREE times in a row. Then he was leaving (His mom called for him), and I explained to him that the real challenge in those games is to try to beat them without using continues, and he was like "Great, let's try that the next time I'm here"

There's still hope... forget the current generation, let's save our kids!

Yawn, another post where the mainstream games are roots of all the world's evil. Maybe that kid can do something for you too... It wouldn't be a bad idea to trade "nth anonymous space shooter" for his GTA.

[Super Laydock]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to trade "nth anonymous space shooter" for his GTA.

Heretic!

If you'd have had an embassy over here we'd burn it for that!

[Zweihander]

...j/k. I heard ZW, as a shmup, actually blows. o_O

Zero Wing wasn't bad at all. It was a great Toaplan shmup.

Ok, I'll rephrase that: to quote a few people I know who've played the game, it just doesn't do anything to stand out. (no using the opening cinema as a counter for that.. i'm talking gameplay.)

[Shatterhand]

Hey mate, don't take all too seriously.

I actually have GTA Vice City, but it's with a friend of mine, as I never touched it after I finished the game. I personally try to play every game that falls in my hand. I have played Need for Speed Underground 2, and I feel it's really very boring.

I guess here in Brazil the culture is even different than in USA or most Europe countries, as gaming still isn't as popular as in more rich countries, mainly because it's still too expensive for most people.

So in the end, most people who play games today, at least between my friends, actually begun playing games with a SNES, so most of them don't show all that much hate towards 2D gaming.

[Dylan1CC]

I think mainstream gamers have a pronbem with more arcade games. They are twitch, needs lots of skills and reflexes, and they aren't made for you to WIN. You are supposed to LOSE and LOSE and LOSE and LOSE up until after many tries, you eventually win. And there's of course, the graphics factor.

Now, usually most of my friends who are mainstream gamers don't make bad comments about shmups. If anyone sees me playing a shmup (or any other 2d game), and complains about the graphics, I usually always reply with "I don't want to look something beautiful, I want to PLAY THE GAME. If I wanted something beautiful I would be looking at a fucking painting.", which usually shut them up. If they complain the game is not realistic enough, I usually reply like "Yeah, like actually killing someone has anything to do with moving a mouse and pressing a button". And if they complain the game is too hard, I reply "Yeah, that's not for cry babies. You can go play your Final Fantasy games or whatever, this is for REAL MEN" (Yeah, it´s stupid, but it works ).

But in all honesty, most people I know actually respect the genre. They may complain the games are too hard, but they usually don't fault the genre for this, but their lack of skill .

And those days the son of my neighbours went here at my house (My mom was talking to his mother).. he's 12 years old, and I asked him if he wanted to play some games. He said yes, and then he asked me if I had GTA or Need for Speed.

I said I didn't have.... I actually put him to play Pro Evolution Soccer 5, as it is the most "mainstrean" game I own. He didn't like it too much, so he asked for some game where he could shoot stuff (Probably wanted something like Halo....)

I couldn't resist, and I put him to play Batrider... and while he credit feeded through the game, he was actually having LOTS of fun.. he was like "WOW... what kind of game is this?" I said it was as shmup, and he then said "Do you have more games like that?"... I showed him Battle Bakraid, and then he credit feeded through the game THREE times in a row. Then he was leaving (His mom called for him), and I explained to him that the real challenge in those games is to try to beat them without using continues, and he was like "Great, let's try that the next time I'm here"

There's still hope... forget the current generation, let's save our kids!

Yawn, another post where the mainstream games are roots of all the world's evil. Maybe that kid can do something for you too... It wouldn't be a bad idea to trade "nth anonymous space shooter" for his GTA.

Hey, I hate dance dance games. Hate them, loathe them, completely biased. But I don't make dumb comments about dance games around my friend who enjoys them or refuse to conceed that they take some skill ie "Oh goodness, danzors gamez iz stoopid, no skillz, just a bunch of 'pad mashing." I am sure there are plenty of "mainstreamers" out there who are 2D shooter fans waiting to happen. We just don't like the ignorant smart aleck gamers who make moronic comments.

[Shatterhand]

Yeah, I second that

[Fighter17]

I recall on X-Play, Morgan was practically having an orgasm narcking on 2-D games because of how bad the game she was reviewing was (sorry, can't remember the name - was a contra style shooter that took place on a space station, and you had to wander a maze). She said things like "oh 2D is dead... this game proves that 2D is dead... I just can't believe that they'd make a 2D game... there's nothing left in 2D to be done... 2D is outdated, there's no way a 2D game can be fun anymore..."

About 20 episodes later, R-Type Final and Gradius V both score 4 out 5s.

I'm guessing Sessler is the balance in the "Force" in X-Play's case. Female game editors seem to think that in order to fit in or be taken seriously they have to run HOT!!! or COLD!!!! when giving their opinions. But because of this they end up looking inconsistent or even downright spazzy. At least she/they scored Final and Gradius nicely though. I also like that G4 at least shows a lot of footage of old school/import games like Alien Soldier (as a random example) in their "tribute" specials.

Another random annoying female quote is Jennifer Tsao's Bomberman DS review from a ways back. "Until now, I've never played Bomberman and I'm not a Bomberman fan but if I was I wouldn't be after this game." ha Wow.

Also, someone on TNL once commented that in one issue Tsao completely went over the top reaming out a GBA game for being "too cute." Yet in the same issue in their editors' picture section it shows her with a big smile surrounded by a bunch of plush Pikachu dolls.

Anyways, if you read a review by Bettenhausen or Dudlak I'd say you are in good hands. Anyone else...eh. Hmmmm.

edit: Also, on hikarutilmitt and others' experiences here, I don't understand why some are so turned off by a game just because it is 2D. If I walked into a gamestore and saw a title as colorful as Mushi with all those bullets being sprayed all over the screen, that would at least catch my passing interest even if I was completely ignorant of the genre. Glad I have always had an open mind.

My friend hate Sessler for giving low scores on 2D fighting games.

[Dylan1CC]

Sessler is OK, he can be likeable and seems somewhat balanced (though it has been a long time since I have watched X Play, if he has slammed sprites then my bad). I'd much rather watch him than Tommy Tallirico.

[Turrican]

Hey mate, don't take all too seriously.

Don't worry, I wasn't so serious myself. Prolly I just don't use smileys effectively

Hey, I hate dance dance games. Hate them, loathe them, completely biased. But I don't make dumb comments about dance games around my friend who enjoys them or refuse to conceed that they take some skill ie "Oh goodness, danzors gamez iz stoopid, no skillz, just a bunch of 'pad mashing." I am sure there are plenty of "mainstreamers" out there who are 2D shooter fans waiting to happen. We just don't like the ignorant smart aleck gamers who make moronic comments.

Yeah, I know, dorks are annoying, but lets get a positive attitude, right? I mean, why we always have to play the part of demonized misunderstood guys... it's so nerdy. We should learn from Ulala. ^_^

Heretic!

If you'd have had an embassy over here we'd burn it for that!

LOL! "What can I say, I'm a bad man" - CJ

[Dylan1CC]

I don't have a "persecution complex," Turrican. Just like any other human being I have a "Comments that are insulting to my intelligence" mind set, OK? It's healthy and downright progressive when in moderation of course, believe me.

[elvis]

Ok, I'll rephrase that: to quote a few people I know who've played the game, it just doesn't do anything to stand out. (no using the opening cinema as a counter for that.. i'm talking gameplay.)

The "All Your Base" part was the Genesis/MegaDrive version only. The arcade game didn't have that part.

Asides from that, the game itself is damned hard. A lot of people thought there were too many cheap deaths, but in reality it's no worse than any other horizontal scrolled of it's day - only that it took a few more credits than most to learn the game properly.

</offtopic>

[Zweihander]

Ok, I'll rephrase that: to quote a few people I know who've played the game, it just doesn't do anything to stand out. (no using the opening cinema as a counter for that.. i'm talking gameplay.)

The "All Your Base" part was the Genesis/MegaDrive version only. The arcade game didn't have that part.

Asides from that, the game itself is damned hard. A lot of people thought there were too many cheap deaths, but in reality it's no worse than any other horizontal scrolled of it's day - only that it took a few more credits than most to learn the game properly.

</offtopic>

Guess I'll eventually have to get ahold of the game and play it... $2 on ebay sounds nice, but not with $20 shipping from the UK.... I swear, people gouge too much on ebay for shipping. </offtopic>

To get back on topic... I feel that any mainstreamer who uses "But you see, we don't live in Japan, we live in America..." automatically loses the argument, if they must resort to that meaningless line. It's as though living in America means one must toss away such values as quality, play-control, and Japanese media-- and conform to nothing but GTA, Halo, and a shitload of full-3D games, regardless of unpolished gameplay, horrid camera angles, and bad play control. That's where the money lies, so that's what we all "should" play, right? Discuss.

I'm aware that Japan is also guilty of the sin of 3-D suckage-- look at the Simple 2000 games (Oane Chappara), Fullmetal Alchemist PS2, Drakengard..... But at least Japan redeems themselves with shmups and good RPG's. (though I'm currently turned off from RPG's.. I think Squaresoft killed them for me with their recent games.) Any shmups released only in America? ......and if so, any good ones? ......'nuff said.

[Turrican]

Seems a moment good as another to link to these webcomics:

http://www.toastyfrog.com/img/comix/050103.jpg

http://www.toastyfrog.com/img/comix/050105.jpg

Quality doesn't reside only in the niche.

[Rob]

I know some people who collect shooters need to be told that, but is GTA a good example of quality in the mainstream. I mean, really? All of the missions I suffered through ranged from bland to annoying. All it was good for is messing around a bit. The actual "game" sucked.

[Dylan1CC]

Seems a moment good as another to link to these webcomics:

http://www.toastyfrog.com/img/comix/050103.jpg

http://www.toastyfrog.com/img/comix/050105.jpg

I enjoy Parish's work on 1Up and comics. I loved his 1Up review for Animal Crossing DS which was done in webcomic "mockumentary" form:

http://ds.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3146050&did=1

But GTA is still just free roaming, 3rd person trash in every sense of the word.

Quality doesn't reside only in the niche.

Nobody here is saying that.

[Fighter17]

I know some people who collect shooters need to be told that, but is GTA a good example of quality in the mainstream. I mean, really? All of the missions I suffered through ranged from bland to annoying. All it was good for is messing around a bit. The actual "game" sucked.

When I played GTA 3 for the first time, I was completely blown away because of its sandbox gameplay. After I beat 3, I move onto Vice City, and it was the same shit over again.

Mainstream is the same shit over and over, and publishers like EA are making money off of that.

[Rob]

Mainstream is the same shit over and over,

Before someone jumps in with the predictable response to this, shooters are the same pure gold over and over. Notice the difference.

[Fighter17]

Mainstream is the same shit over and over,

Before someone jumps in with the predictable response to this, shooters are the same pure gold over and over. Notice the difference.

Yeah, I agree with you, but each shooter is always different: different bullet patterns, bosses and etc. It might be the same, but developers always make the same thing work perfectly, like those mainstream games.

[jp]

My personal favorite:

"Radiant Silvergun is so over hyped!"


Anyone who has actually 1CC'd it would quickly say different.

[Fighter17]

"Radiant Silvergun is so over hyped!"

I do think of this quote, I found the game to be waaaaaay too long, and the gameplay was just meh (and yes I understand everything in this game).

I like shorter shmups better.

[Dylan1CC]

It's good to have a nice long shmup once in awhile like Radiant. Not every shmup can be, let alone should be 5 stages long.

[Fighter17]

It's good to have a nice long shmup once in awhile like Radiant. Not every shmup can be, let alone should be 5 stages long.

Yeah, many shmup stages shoud be 7 stages. In terms of long shmups, the Aleste series did everything right.

[Turrican]

Before someone jumps in with the predictable response to this, shooters are the same pure gold over and over. Notice the difference.

I don't think anyone here is gonna debate on that. I mean, there must be some reason why we're posting on a forum called "shmups"... Clearly we're addicted to the genre to the point that we even accept its routine side.

I don't have a "persecution complex," Turrican. Just like any other human being I have a "Comments that are insulting to my intelligence" mind set, OK? It's healthy and downright progressive when in moderation of course, believe me.

That's ok, I know... Look, each of us har pefectly legitimate reason to be annoyed by jerks who open their mouth not knowing what they're talking about... I just wanted to point out that reading all of them on this thread generates negative karma. ^_^

[Dylan1CC]

My two next 1CC goals are actually Radiant and Mushi. Dunno which order of completion they will fall into though. ha

Before someone jumps in with the predictable response to this, shooters are the same pure gold over and over. Notice the difference.

I don't think anyone here is gonna debate on that. I mean, there must be some reason why we're posting on a forum called "shmups"... Clearly we're addicted to the genre to the point that we even accept its routine side.

Oh really? Points to Zweihander's "Chaos Field killed my family avatar."

[system11]

Guess I'll eventually have to get ahold of the game and play it... $2 on ebay sounds nice, but not with $20 shipping from the UK.... I swear, people gouge too much on ebay for shipping.

Hate to tell you, but with the cost of shipping in the UK (it's fucking expensive to breathe here, let alone post things), coupled with your dollars being worth as much as the fake ones in our monopoly sets, $20 is pretty much spot on for airmail.

[Zweihander]

Guess I'll eventually have to get ahold of the game and play it... $2 on ebay sounds nice, but not with $20 shipping from the UK.... I swear, people gouge too much on ebay for shipping.

Hate to tell you, but with the cost of shipping in the UK (it's fucking expensive to breathe here, let alone post things), coupled with your dollars being worth as much as the fake ones in our monopoly sets, $20 is pretty much spot on for airmail.

Can't argue that.... If I were to order an exceptional shmup from the UK (like whenever I get around to buying Radiant... but will more than likely buy Radiant from a US seller if I can, seeing as the game will skyrocket to at least $160 before the auction ends) then I'd be willing to pay it.

I'd only refuse to pay it for Zero Wing, since everything I've read, seen, and heard about it, leads me to believe it's a "meh" shmup-- one that's fun in its own right, but falls in line with Phalanx, Earth Defense Force, and Shienryu (oh, yes, I went there)-- good at best, mediocre at worst, with "okay" being the general essence.

On the reverse end of the spectrum, I'd have no problem paying $20 for shipping on Radiant, seeing as it's just a drop in the bucket compared to $160. Radiant's status seems to be "FUCKING SWEET" at best, good at worst, with "orgasmic" and "great<3<3<3" tried up evenly in between. But for a $2 game? I think it has to do with the shipping price being 10x the item price.

No disrespect to Zero Wing lovers, or you, Turrican... just saying, I'd like to pay more for the item itself than shipping, regardless of the country. o_O (...that's not to say I'd rather pay $20 or more for Zero Wing..) This is off-topic, but I'd pay $10 for that game at most, shipping included. What I've heard about it leads me to believe it's a gamble.

</offtopic> I really can't think of too many more shmup-bashing quotes, other than the typical "2D games ate teh suck" and "we live in america so step into the single file line" comments from mainstreamers. Anything else I've heard is basically anything I've posted, put into different words or structures.

"Radiant Silvergun is so over hyped!"

I do think of this quote, I found the game to be waaaaaay too long, and the gameplay was just meh (and yes I understand everything in this game).

I like shorter shmups better.

You wouldn't like Gradius V, then... (2 hours)

My two next 1CC goals are actually Radiant and Mushi. Dunno which order of completion they will fall into though. ha

Before someone jumps in with the predictable response to this, shooters are the same pure gold over and over. Notice the difference.

I don't think anyone here is gonna debate on that. I mean, there must be some reason why we're posting on a forum called "shmups"... Clearly we're addicted to the genre to the point that we even accept its routine side.

Oh really? Points to Zweihander's "Chaos Field killed my family avatar."

Indeed... Chaos Field disappointed me, and symbolized (to me, anyway) that shmups are heading the way of mainstream gaming... graphics over gameplay. (and C.F.'s graphics really weren't that great in the first place.) I do find it amusing that any given Team Shanghai Alice, in its 2-D entireity, beats Chaos Field down into the ground with its gameplay. That, to me, shows quality-- be it 2-D or 3-D-- over amazing (or in CF's case, wannabe-amazing) graphics. Then again, we have Gradius V, Ikaruga, Psyvariar, and many more beautiful 3-D shmups that play magnificantly, and RSG3 should be no exception. (though my faith in Treasure, at the moment, is absent; for shame, making such a horrid Bleach fighting game... I love 2-D fighters, and this one hurt my eyes.)

EDIT: .....motherfucking.... </offtopic, AGAIN....>

[Dylan1CC]

I'll still buy CF eventually just so I can try it and see what it is like. I'm glad Rajirugi looks more interesting so far. Although it goes for "flash" and visuals, at least it is not just a connected series of boss battles.

[Rob]

Chaos Field disappointed me, and symbolized (to me, anyway) that shmups are heading the way of mainstream gaming... graphics over gameplay. (and C.F.'s graphics really weren't that great in the first place.)

Do I have to point out the obvious here? If the graphics were crap, it obviously was not a selling point. Its selling point was its field gimmick.

[Zweihander]

Chaos Field disappointed me, and symbolized (to me, anyway) that shmups are heading the way of mainstream gaming... graphics over gameplay. (and C.F.'s graphics really weren't that great in the first place.)

Do I have to point out the obvious here? If the graphics were crap, it obviously was not a selling point. Its selling point was its field gimmick.

but the Field Gimmick itself wasn't enough to make up for the flawed experience.