Shooters vs Run n Guns

[PowerofElsydeon]

Note:Megaman and Metroid are platformers with emphasis on shooting not run n guns so don t bring that up to annoy me
Note:Comando and Ikari warriors are Shooters without auto scrolling so they are their own subgenre don t bring that up pls

When I was 'bout 9-11 years old (how should I remember?)On Saturday Weekend I ve read an article on a NES based magazine talking about Contra(Probotector in this Case) it said that it was a nearly impossible game to beat due to the 1 hit 1 kill physics yet it was one of the best NES Games the Day Next I ve rented the cartbridge and became a hardcore Contra fan for life When I did buy the game I believe I did the 1CC clear in 2 weeks if my memory serves me well and became a cocky b*tch soon after

Ign ranked that run n gun as roughfest game to beat and Watchmojo ranked it as 10th hardest game ever made (maybe they re just badly informed casual gamers wich is a big shame)

Well now that I came across Taoplan and Cave games I realized its all ridiculous scam as Contra was just one out of few árcade style game on the NES So its not even close with that reputation.It hurts my childhood a lot actually

Well that screwed off my organition 'Cause I ve just wanted to ask you hardcore shumpers the following comparisons

1)Wich is the harder game Arc Gradius or NES Contra
2)Compare your favourite Shooter to your favourite Run n Gun
3)Why are Shooters harder(most likely)
4)Why are Shooters relatively alive and Run n Guns dead meat(fanbase alive only trough retrogaming)
5)What are blast em ups

[iconoclast]

Metal Slug X is easily the best run & gun I've played. Hard Corps: Uprising is runner up.


1)Wich is the harder game Arc Gradius or NES Contra
I dunno, probably Gradius.

2)Compare your favourite Shooter to your favourite Run n Gun
They're nothing alike.

3)Why are Shooters harder(most likely)
See question 4.

4)Why are Shooters relatively alive and Run n Guns dead meat(fanbase alive only trough retrogaming)
STG developers did a better job of pleasing their fans by creating harder games, coming up with new game mechanics, and/or creating more complex scoring systems. Meanwhile, almost every run & gun I've ever played is garbage to play (seriously) for score. That means they don't have much value beyond a 1cc/no miss. (The Metal Slug games are pretty fun to do some basic scoring in, ie. collecting all of the items and finding all of the prisoners, but then you watch a high level run and realize the scoring is atrocious.)

5)What are blast em ups
I have no idea.

[clippa]

You might like "shoot many robots" - http://store.steampowered.com/app/96400/
Currently half price in the steam sale, it's great fun and works really well with mouse and keyboard.

[Squire Grooktook]

Contra 3 is my favorite run and gun shooter of all time, with Daimakaimura/Ghouls and Ghosts JPN Arcade version being a close runner up or tie (depending on my mood).

Contra 3 is just full of random, twitchy moments complimented by fundamentally great design (lots of strategic variety backing up the chaos), and is mean, lean, and fast as a laser beam.

Dai/GNG comes in 2nd for being a similarly chaotic, balls to the walls action-fest, but one that's slightly less furious.


Of the games listed by name in the poll, Alien Soldier would also be a pick. Though it should be noted, the game can't really be approached in the same way as other gunners: it's more like a fighting game where you use careful spacing to goad enemies into attacking, manually dodging and causing them to miss, and then opening fire on their weakpoints with tight aim from your various weapons. The Zero Teleport feels incredibly fun with its blast of rushing speed, but it's a balanced tool like any other that will result in a slower and more awkward performance on early stages and outright death in later ones if abused for easy dodges (don't be a chicken! dodge it manually and you'll be rewarded with more damage opportunities!). Master all your tools, and the early game becomes full of elegant speed kills and the late game full of epic battles.

I really like the game for feeling like a completely original experience where learning your unique character's playstyle is half the battle. Also has many other things I like in games, visceral feeling moves, random elements forcing you to react and improvise, great atmosphere...etc.


As for a few of the questions:

1) Hard to say. I think I'd go with Arcade Gradius, personally. Though I don't find either game too hard. Gradius might be slightly more punishing.
3) Bigger genre. There are more shmups then run and guns, so there have been more games made for specific difficulty niches.
4) Because people are dumb. I think shmups have a slightly greater appeal (for a niche genre) due to their ultimate simplicity and freedom of movement.

That means they don't have much value beyond a 1cc/no miss.

Yeah they do. It's called "replay them for a 1cc/no miss again later, because it's still intense and fun". I revisit my favorites frequently, and they're no less "valuable".

More scoring elements would be nice though.




Also for the OP: if you like the sorts of games, this is the thread for you:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45206

[IDruggedShamu]

No Dolphin Blue love?!

[antares]

Where's Turrican in that list? My favourite Run n Gun is Mega Turrican

[Herr Schatten]

Where's Turrican in that list? My favourite Run n Gun is Mega Turrican

And mine's Turrican II, although that might qualify as a platformer rather than a Run'n'Gun.

[ProjectAKo]

Shock Droopers 2 :DDDDD

[antares]

Where's Turrican in that list? My favourite Run n Gun is Mega Turrican

And mine's Turrican II, although that might qualify as a platformer rather than a Run'n'Gun.

Yeah, 1 and 2 are heavier focused on platforming and exploration.

I love them all but I always liked the streamlined and straight forward leveldesign of Mega Turrican / Turrican 3 best.

[Doctor Butler]

Metal SLug 4!!!

[NeoStrayCat]

Metal Slug series is my go to niche, lol. X3

[ACSeraph]

I love Super C on NES personally because nostalgia. Contra would be a lot better off if it was pure side scrolling, but if I have to have non-side scrolling stage in there I'll definitely take Super C's top down view over Contra 1's shoulder view, and whatever the fuck that atrocious Mode 7 shit in Contra 3 is supposed to be. 3 is completely badass when it's side scrolling, but those top down stages make me want to claw my eyes out. Metal slug is beautiful, but I want to be able to shoot diagonally. Feels a bit stiff to me as is.

(1) As for the Gradius versus Contra question, probly Gradius, but I agree with Squire, neither is too hard by genre standards.

(2) Favorite shooter is Darius Extra, but I can't really make any comparison between that and Contra.

(3) Because developers intentionally made them that way to please fans over the years. Many older console shooters are easier than run and guns. Makaimura is much harder than most NES shmups for example.

(4) I think both are mostly dead actually outside of doujin. I think doujin favors shmups because it's an easier genre to develop for at a very basic level for small or one man teams.

[iconoclast]

Contra would be a lot better off if it was pure side scrolling, but if I have to have non-side scrolling stage in there I'll definitely take Super C's top down view over Contra 1's shoulder view, and whatever the fuck that atrocious Mode 7 shit in Contra 3 is supposed to be. 3 is completely badass when it's side scrolling, but those top down stages make me want to claw my eyes out.

So much this. I'll take Shattered Soldier, Hard Corps, and Hard Corps: Uprising over any of the 'mainline' Contra games every time. No boring gimmick stages, just pure side-scrolling action and loads of boss fights from start to finish.

[Squire Grooktook]

Shattered Soldier and Hard Corps would be higher in my opinion, but they have too many dry, static patterns that become completely worthless and somewhat boring once memorized. The best moments more then make up for it, but 3 brings the high speed, air tight, rng chaos with each and every boss fight and set piece. In SS and Hardcorps, such moments are more rare treats then anything. Also both SS and Hard Corps have a serious lack of true "run and gun" action-platforming moments, which are neutered pretty heavily in favor of the boss fights (half of the few in Hardcorps are utterly wrecked by one of each characters weapons).

The Dead Eye Joe fight in Hardcorps where he slooooowly climbs up the halls while you wait to safe spot his next few patterns is also tenfold worse then the top down stages in 3, which can be blazed through incredibly quickly once mastered (and doing so is actually kinda fun).

Of course, don't get me wrong, I love SS and Hard Corps. Beloved games that I return to with great affection, but IMO 3 (maybe 1 too I guess) is the only game in the franchise I'd call a masterpiece. It's few weaknesses become better and better as you get a handle on it, and it's strengths shine more and more with each playthrough. Can't quite say the same for the others, as much as I love them.

[iconoclast]

I agree to an extent, especially in regard to Shattered Soldier. That's one of the most rote games I've ever played - there's pretty much one correct way to do everything, and that's it. Some sections (mainly bosses) can be optimized to be finished a little quicker, but it really doesn't make much difference. Hard Corps is similar, but the alternate paths and four playable characters at least add some variety. Hard Corps Uprising, though, gives you far more freedom to improvise with its lengthier stage designs and more complex mechanics. (That's also why the autoscrolling stages are the worst thing about the game imo. They're not badly designed, they just don't let you make full use of your tools. You spend too much time waiting for the next thing to happen instead of advancing at your own pace.)

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah Uprising seemed pretty solid from what I've played of it. Didn't seem to have as much chaos and fierce dodging action as 3, but enough to compensate some of its blunders (that default pea shooter...) along with its unique movement options. A shame the game gets a bad rep around here.

[OmKol]

I love almost every Contra game (with some exceptions like PS1 Games), even Contra 4 on DS is enjoyable for me. I can understand someone can hate that dual screen thing but it's a nice challenge (especially on Hard) and it plays just like any old Contra game - endless random enemies, a huge variety of stages and situations and a really huge epic bosses.

[copy-paster]

1)Wich is the harder game Arc Gradius or NES Contra

AC Gradius is no joke, even some of members (include me) here are have some serious frustration while clear that game. Even you can 1CC'd NES Contra on first try if you know all the basic controls.

2)Compare your favourite Shooter to your favourite Run n Gun

FC Gradius II was developed by a same team who also working on NES Contra and Super C.

3)Why are Shooters harder(most likely)

This may not relate to your question, but this post explain why most "mainstream" gamers think shooters are harder.

4)Why are Shooters relatively alive and Run n Guns dead meat(fanbase alive only trough retrogaming)

Shooters has lot of 'play-styles', fans of older generation, and a simple-yet-challenging basic gameplay.

5)What are blast em ups

Did you mean beat-em ups??

[uzernaem]

Shattered Soldier and Hard Corps would be higher in my opinion, but they have too many dry, static patterns that become completely worthless and somewhat boring once memorized.

This. This is why Contra 3 is my fav Contra game even though it is much shorter than Hard Corps.
My absolute favorite run n gun is Metal Slug 1. It has DAT ATMOSPHERE and music that none of the sequels have.

As for popularity of run'n'guns vs shmups, both are niche but shmups cater to a more hardcore audience with their emphasis on scoring and competition. Try playing Metal Slug for score and you'll find your character staying in one place waiting for more enemies to spawn.

[PowerofElsydeon]

whatever the fuck that atrocious Mode 7 shit in Contra 3 is supposed to be

That is not really shit I believe the contra túnel stages are the worst of the 3 because once you master them they become repetetive

Betwen the mode 7 stages and the top down stages I easily prefer the mode 7 ones due to their easy to learn hard to master feel and Incredible Snes miracle visuals

the ones on Super C are like more like a tribute to Ikari Warriors and shit and I feel much less adrenaline than in Snes due to very easy boss figths in both cases

5)What are blast em ups


Did you mean beat-em ups??

No I meant Blast em Ups

Well I confess if had the power to reboot Contra
I d Use sidescrolling only
I d Put good scoring in there along with a online Leaderboard

But more importantly i ve always dreamed of having a hilarious Contra game next to me since konami are no strangers to this since they ve invented Parodius I believe it would be awesome to fuck it up beyond belief with oversexual humor and crazy porn plot twists
I mean wouldn t it be awesome to make a hilarious run n gun since that idea was only tried in shooters especial Parodius
Do u agree with me ?Rebirth the series by shocking fan of the series for the good reason of having a laugh and having good scoring making the games more hardcore in gameplay

[Jeneki]

Blast em ups is in the glossary topic stickied at the top of the forum.

Blast-‘em-Up: Term used to describe a shmup, usually an older one, which generally does not include any type of scoring system beyond shooting enemies and perhaps collecting set-amount score items. Generally not played “for score” (especially since many such shmups do not include limits on milking and other potentially counter-stopping techniques), but instead with the exclusive goal of a one-credit in mind.

[PowerofElsydeon]

Thanks

[Skykid]

Shock Droopers 2 :DDDDD

Man, I've seen a few of those. They look all pert, but when that bra comes off, boy.

[PooshhMao]

Quality run & gun games are typically great fun to play through, but there's typically not much to do with them afterwards apart from attempting a 1CC maybe. My award for best game in the genre probably goes to ... uh, let me think. I'm inclined to say Alien Soldier - I would fucking LOVE the shit out of a sequel, or even a proper remake with better controls, graphics and sounds which aren't restricted by the Mega Drive's specs.
The Metal Slug games are probably better overall, but I overdosed on them.

The general problem with those games is that they're inherently linear and suffer from a comparatively low skill ceiling. Design-wise the game has to take into account that you're controlling a sprite-sized hitbox that's bound by gravity, so bullet pattern navigation is pretty much out of the question, so basically all there is to do is to learn boss behavioral patterns, learning where to stand, duck or jump at the proper time.

[uzernaem]

I'm inclined to say Alien Soldier - I would fucking LOVE the shit out of a sequel, or even a proper remake with better controls, graphics and sounds which aren't restricted by the Mega Drive's specs.

Being restricted by the Megadrive specs and looking this amazing is a big part in Alien Solider awesomeness. I really love when developers push older hardware to the max. 2D shooter sprite based game on a modern PC or console that can run Crysis @ ultra settings just doesn't amaze me this much. Making this game run on a 16-bit 68000 based hardware is what makes my panties wet. Neo Geo would be ideal for a sequel.

[PooshhMao]

. Neo Geo would be ideal for a sequel.

Hmm, I don't think I agree with that. To do Alien Soldier even remotely justice, the system would need to be an absolute sprite-pushing monster, and preferably should also be able to rotate them, something the Neo-Geo isn't capable of. If anything, the GBA or Nintendo DS should be much better suited for what I have in mind - look at Gunstar Super Heroes or any of the Castlevania games which feature plenty of those lovely multi-jointed characters the Mega Drive did so well, but they're even better on those platforms because of their ability to rotate sprites. Also the addition of a L and R button should make a prospective Alien Soldier sequel more intuitive to control.

[Hagane]

I absolutely love Metal Slug 1 and X, you can just blaze and tear everything apart with grenades, point blanking and the super satisfying knife attack. Can't say much about Contra because I haven't played them much, something I have to remedy soon.

I think there's still a lot the genre could offer. High resolution widescreen displays could allow for danmaku-esque games with lots of bullets and enemies on screen. Good scoring systems could easily be implemented; dunno why most games in the genre are so terrible in that regard. Metal Slug games in particular are so fun to speedrun yet so atrocious for scoreplay. I'd like to make a modernized run and gun sometime in the future if I ever stop being lazy with the sprites.

[Despatche]

alien soldier deserved a saturn sequel

[Squire Grooktook]

The general problem with those games is that they're inherently linear and suffer from a comparatively low skill ceiling. Design-wise the game has to take into account that you're controlling a sprite-sized hitbox that's bound by gravity, so bullet pattern navigation is pretty much out of the question, so basically all there is to do is to learn boss behavioral patterns, learning where to stand, duck or jump at the proper time.

You sound like you haven't played them that much. There are a lot of unique skills to learn in a game like Alien Soldier or Contra 3, and "just learn boss behavioral patterns" doesn't take into account rng or patterns that force careful reads and spacing. This is like somebody who doesn't play fighters saying "they're all just button mashers" etc.

[PooshhMao]

Metal SLug 4!!!

Are you trolling?

Metal Slug 4 was a massive let down after the sublime Metal Slug 3. It literally is a Korean no-budget mish mash of sprite hacks from previous games.