Fighting Game Hype Thread

[Despatche]

It's not obvious if you're a rom kiddie, maybe. Widescreen displays outside of theatres were a microscopic niche until the late 2000s, and anyone who's even seen the games in an arcade would know better. Also, Marvel 2 has a naturally 4:3 internal resolution, like Capcom vs SNK and other Naomi games.

[Squire Grooktook]

To be fair, I actually have played them in arcades a few times, but it's nothing compared to the amount of time I've spent playing with friends at home/over the internet. So it's not easy to recall something like that.

The last arcade near me removed everything that wasn't a light gun or racing game recently (they used to have Ghouls and Ghosts, Robotron, SF2, etc.), so I haven't been there since. *sigh*

[Despatche]

The real problem is that the silly emulators usually used for netplay do not have correct stretching enabled by default.

[BulletMagnet]

Even more Fire Emblem in Smash...but more importantly, you've been naughty!

[Squire Grooktook]

I don't think I have any more mind left to blow.

[Strider77]

Ewww, Smash.

[trap15]

Could you ever make a comment that's not two words of pointless condescension? Thanks in advance.

[quash]

First, universal mechanics only increase variety if they aren't actually that universal like FRCs, meaning that every character uses it differently. When you give everyone the same mechanic and it's used the same way by everyone, you are definitely reducing variety. In Guilty Gear most universal mechanics are only safeguards so they aren't as homogenizing, but airdashes for nearly everyone does make a large part of the cast have a similar strategy (rushdown).

So we are agreeing. Cool.

Bridget does suck compared to the rest of the cast; AFAIK Ruu is the only to ever achieve truly good results with him, and yet of course most other characters place much better. The "some godly Japanese player got some good results with the character, so it doesn't suck" argument has never been a good one, by the way: Komoda Blanka is legendary in ST and he does mind-bending stuff with his character, but that doesn't make it any less crap when compared to almost the entire rest of the cast.

I'm not making that argument, though I see why you could see that I am.

Long story short, Bridget is a character that more or less defies the fundamentals of the game. For any given situation where anyone else would simply press a button, Bridget has to forego the immediate rewards and position himself for a better reward later. Not that his pokes are bad (they are actually among the best in the game), it's that he can't get the kinds of confirms off of them that other characters can. When used effectively, his mixup potential is insane, nearly on par with Millia or Dizzy.

There have always been only a few top level Bridgets (Ruu, Mugen, etc.) because of how hard he is to play. But even the mid/upper-mid level Bridgets in Japan are winning very consistently, even in matchups he should be losing. Not to say he is an amazing character because he isn't, but he is more than sufficiently strong. I would say that there are several characters weaker than him in +R, including but not limited to ABA, Robo-Ky, and Kliff.

As for airdashing, they are much safer than forward jumps in a ground based game, which is why it's such a prevalent way to start offense.

You still don't get that airdashing is the same as jumping forward? Come on, dude. You want to know a universal mechanic that acts as a hard counter to airdashing? Airthrows! The same thought process behind dragon punching a jump-in in SF can be used to airthrow an airdash in GG. It is intentionally designed to be that way.

The rest of your post is stemming from a fundamental misunderstanding of how these games work. I don't doubt that you understand ST, KOF, etc. quite well, in fact you have proven as much numerous times. You are letting the noise drown out the signal when you are watching or playing Guilty Gear, though. I can't necessarily blame you because a lot of GG players do the same, but if you want to understand the game on a more intimate level you can go watch the GG Crash Course videos. I helped out the guy who made them awhile back so I can preemptively give them my seal of approval.

[Hagane]

I would say that there are several characters weaker than him in +R, including but not limited to ABA, Robo-Ky, and Kliff.

Did they destroy Kliff in an update (or was he just not as good as he seemed to be)? I remember him being super strong when the game came out.

Airdashes:

No matter how you put it, airdashes are not the same as jumping forward. They are much safer than forward jumping, much harder to punish, and IADing is much more effective as an offensive tool than a jump forward in a ground based game.

The fact that you mention airthrows as the only hard counter says a lot of their nature. Whereas in an older SF (and some KOFs) you can use airthrows, normals, projectiles or invincible specials to beat a jump-in, in GG the hard counter to airdashes is only an airthrow. And I don't see that many airdashes being punished by airthrows in GG compared to jumps in SF/KOF.

They (and jumps in general being much safer thanks to FD) are a big part of why GG is so heavy on offense.

As a side note, I'm not trying to put GG down for this reason, as it makes it a different experience and I really enjoy the game.

[quash]

Did they destroy Kliff in an update (or was he just not as good as he seemed to be)? I remember him being super strong when the game came out.

Yeah, they just made him revolve around fuzzy guards now.

No matter how you put it, airdashes are not the same as jumping forward. They are much safer than forward jumping, much harder to punish, and IADing is much more effective as an offensive tool than a jump forward in a ground based game.

In other games like Melty Blood and Arcana Heart this is more the case, but in Guilty Gear this is untrue. Airthrows are just the built-in, if all else fails hard counter to airdashes. All ground normals are air unblockable. Most characters have a 6P, c.S, or other fast, high-hitting anti-air that can beat airdashes. Most characters also have good air-to-air approaches that can beat airdashing with rising j.P, j.K, or j.S.

You're right in saying that FD'ing makes jumping safer, but you can't FD while airdashing. You have to wait until the end of recovery.

All I'm saying is that if you think of Guilty Gear as being Street Fighter, you'll find that the game is a logical progression of a lot of the limitations posed by Street Fighter's format. Moreso than basically any post-ST Street Fighter.

[Hagane]

GG can't be called a progression of something like Street Fighter when it doesn't improve on that style: it chooses to follow another one, started by games like Vampire and the X-men /Marvel series. If I want a deep ground game, zoning and a good variety of individual archetypes (that go from total turtling to total rushdown) I can't find that in Accent Core because it offers other strenghts instead (deeper air game, more rushdown options, weaker defense that allows more freedom to rush, etc). Each is its own thing.

On one thing I can fully agree though: Street Fighter has been continually devolving after ST.

[Strider77]

Could you ever make a comment that's not two words of pointless condescension? Thanks in advance.

Ewwwwe, hyper sensitive.

[quash]

GG can't be called a progression of something like Street Fighter when it doesn't improve on that style: it chooses to follow another one, started by games like Vampire and the X-men /Marvel series. If I want a deep ground game, zoning and a good variety of individual archetypes (that go from total turtling to total rushdown) I can't find that in Accent Core because it offers other strenghts instead (deeper air game, more rushdown options, weaker defense that allows more freedom to rush, etc). Each is its own thing.

On one thing I can fully agree though: Street Fighter has been continually devolving after ST.

I've found the problem: you think defense is weak in Guilty Gear. The game with three types of blocking, reversal option selects out the wazoo, and wakeup crossup protection.

And of course, let's not forget the thing that no other game has been able to properly imitate: reversal backdashes good enough to be useful, but easy enough to read.

[Hagane]

You are still not thinking in terms of strategy, just in terms of separate mechanics. You can't build a defensive strategy upon those mechanics. They are either safeguards against particular situations or actually help with rushdown (like jump FD).

And of course, invincible specials that work as antiairs cannot be compared to something like a reversal backdash. One can be used in zoning/keepaway strategies to deny you ways to get in when the opponent didn't jump / attack at the right time, the other is just a way to get out and sometimes counterattack, more similar to KOF back rolls than to an invincible special.

The much higher usefulness of normals and projectiles (due to the lack of any sort of air defense mechanic and overall better priorities) also explains much of the way a game like ST plays. They help greatly in establishing defensive strategies and also strenghten the ground game immensely.

Invincible backdashes were implemented quite well as an universal defensive mechanic in Fatal Fury Special, by the way.

Again, I'm stressing these points to defend that ground based fighting games offer things air heavy games cannot. And of course the opposite is true, but I want to dispel this belief that they are the same thing and one makes the other irrelevant or is a superior evolution. Both offer different things, and even hybrids like KOF (or UNIB, as all this discussion started with that game) are distinct enough to offer an unique experience.

[quash]

You can totally build a strategy on those mechanics, that's why they're there. Backdashing at neutral to bait whiffs and punish. Prompting a response to a "bad" situation and coming out on top thanks to the increased frame advantage provided by IB. Just two basic examples of things good players are doing all the time.

Normals and projectiles are plenty useful in Guilty Gear, why do you think it has all these movement and defensive options? How would you deal with a character like Testament if you couldn't block in the air? How would you deal with Slayer if you couldn't IB? The list goes on.

Yes, offense is strong in Guilty Gear, and the game favors offensive strategy. But if they didn't make defense and defensive strategy stronger to compensate, the series would not have survived as long as it has.

Again, I'm stressing these points to defend that ground based fighting games offer things air heavy games cannot.

They offer a format that is self-restrictive and severely limits variety in playstyle. You seem to think that Guilty Gear came up with the mechanics it did for the heck of it, that these ideas just came out of thin air and it all miraculously worked. I am telling you that they expanded upon the foundations laid by Street Fighter II and solved virtually every problem the 2D fighters after it had. The reason it's not so easy to see at first is because you don't have the necessary experience with the game to understand how and why it did all of this.

Obviously I am not arguing that Street Fighter and Guilty Gear are exactly the same, or that you can't feasibly prefer the former over the latter. The issue is why, and your reasoning is only exposing how little experience you have with the game.

If you prefer ST over +R, great. ST is awesome and I have nothing against that. But if your reason for preferring it is that it has stronger defensive strategies (we're talking about the same game with Ochio loops and walldive 50-50's, right?), I can't help but bring into question how much you have actually played +R.

[quash]

If there is one post-ST Street Fighter that I would argue served as the next step in the evolution of the genre, it is CVS2. Yeah, I know, it's not technically a Street Fighter game, but let's be honest: it was everything the Alpha games wished they were.

CVS2 introduced a new layer to Street Fighter: honest to God reverse nitaku.

Yes, roll cancel wasn't intentional and it changed the game in several other ways (particularly at neutral), but this was the first SF where you had a real response to being cornered that was actually interesting and improved the game tremendously.

A lot of people like to shit on CVS2 for having huge hitboxes on normals, stupid pressure, etc. All of these things are true, but for the first time in an SF game, you can argue that they are part of a bigger picture because you had a real response to both of these things. I guess Just Defend and to a lesser extent parry did serve as a hard counter to these things, but really, roll cancel was what made the game.

Don't agree? Feel free to play CVS2:EO sometime. Capcom was considerate enough to "fix" the game by removing the one thing that made it truly special instead of working with it. You can enjoy all the A-Groove vs K-Groove goodness you want, or you can play a game with way more variety and depth.

I only wish Capcom had the balls to actually improve the game, or take the concept and refine it in a different series, but instead they decided they were done with 2D fighters and left us with a game that, while not the most refined, still did something groundbreaking and did it pretty well.

[Hagane]

You keep talking about the variety the myriad of subsystems in GG brings, but if the vast majority of GG characters are rushdown oriented and even the more defensive characters can't win exclusively by defense, then it doesn't have the variety you say it has. It does give you more ways to rush down, but at the expense of defensive strategies.

I don't think you are really understanding what strategy is. Your examples are only tactics, not strategy. Baiting an attack and then punishing is not strategy, it's a maneuver, a tactic. A strategy is a plan that is achieved with a number of tactics. And in Guilty Gear strategies are variations of rushdown 99% of the time.

I can't think of a single character in AC or R+ that wins exclusively with a defensive strategy, except some really specific matchups like R+ Zappa vs. Justice, and that's because R+ Justice is severely limited movement wise so Zappa's zoning becomes lethal.

Normals and projectiles of course have their uses in GG. They are much weaker than in a game like ST or KOF'98 though. In those games, if you have a normal that outprioritizes the jump in, the antiair is guaranteed. If you time a projectile correctly it can be used as an anti-air, something that is a staple for zoning characters. You can see how this is severely weakened in a game with airblocking.

Limtations are not a bad thing per se, quite the contrary. In fact, oftentimes adding more stuff has the effect of lowering your real options. 3S is always an easy example to explain this, as even though the game has more mechanics and characters it is more limited than ST or HF because of how many archetypes and moves parry destroys. Of course this is not really a problem in GG because while airdashing and airblocking might weaken SF ground game and defensive strategies, the games give something else to compensate for that, whereas 3S is still a Street Fighter.

GG doesn't expand the foundations of SF. It expands upon Vampire and the Marvel games. The defining points of Street Fighter are the relevance of projectiles and its ground game, quite the opposite from GG.

That ST has much stronger defensive characters than R+ is something clear as day. There's nothng comparable to Dhalsim, Vega, Sagat, Chun-li or Guile in that game. And the best thing is that there are strong rushdown characters in ST despite that.

[pokemon123]

i wish that capcom could release cvs 2. Game seems intereseting from what i've played but no one to play. Odds of that are slim... to say the least unfortunately.

i'm that one heathen that does not like ST at all heh. Only thing I like about it is the cast and some songs but otherwise can't stand it. It is better than alpha 3 though.

Personal favorite "serious" fighting game is between third strike and SF 4. Third strikes gameplay to me is better but SF 4 execution is so much easier and personally not a fan of execution in fighting games. Interested in GG but not a good PC or ps4 (which is where i'm guessing people play).

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

So, I thought the new SFV characters were mostly good. Laura was interesting. Rashid seemed good too. Didn't care much for Necalli. Too bad they didn't have Fang in the beta. Looking forward to the full game. So far V is more enjoyable to me than IV. I'm not even sure why. I think the matches flow a little better. Some interesting footsie and cross ups going on here.

[quash]

I'm not saying you're wrong about ST being more defensive in nature, I'm saying you're missing the bigger picture. Guilty Gear has plenty of characters who pefrom just as well if not better playing defense than offense. Look at Venom, who can spend samn near an entire match at full screen. Look at Justice who can do the same. Look at May, Bridget and Chipp who can spend nearly an entire match baiting whiffs. Look at Ky, Johnny and Sol who all play proactive roles at neutral by poking and positioning themselves well.

You would be right about air blocking making anti airs weaker if this was SF we were talking about, but you can force a high/low mixup off of a blocked anti air in GG (among other ways you can take advantage of this situation).

We seem to see more or less the same things in regards to SF, so hear me out: don't think of GG as being this intangible airdash game that does all sorts of crazy things for questionable reasons. I agree that it does take certain aspects from Vampire Savior and to a lesser extent Marvel, but at the end of the day you are still playing the same neutral game as SF2: fireball, dragon punch, crouch forward. They're just called f.S, airthrow and 2S now. You can apply nearly the same thought syntax as you would in SF and do very well with these moves alone.

[BulletMagnet]

Some possible good news possibly concerning KoF 14.

[Hagane]

That does sound good. I hope it will translate into getting new releases of franchises that aren't KOF.

And I really hope they do something with KOF 14's graphics, or else it will be a huge flop and put them in a bad financial situation again.

[BulletMagnet]

KI's next "season" coming to Windows 10...but not XB1?

[Blade]

I know Guilty Gear Xrd: Revelator is coming sometime this "spring" (ambiguous announcement is ambiguous).

What's the story about BlazBlue Central Fiction? That coming out this year at all? Projections?

[BulletMagnet]

In case you weren't already concerned enough about how the next KoF game might turn out, there's also both an anime and a live-action TV show on the way..and they plan to localize 'em too.

[null1024]

KI's next "season" coming to Windows 10...but not XB1?

Further down, it mentions the XB1, and MS as of the latest set of system updates seems to consider the XBone a Windows 10 device.

also, I'm deeply worried about that KOF live action, that just sounds like it's going to be dumb
I've got slightly more hope for the anime, but fighting game anime haven't ever been particularly great [SF2 notwithstanding].
SNK seems to at least be trying to bring the KOF brand back as a household name though.

[Ruldra]

Highlights from a recent 3rd Strike tournament in Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwE3aETsUJM

Lots of great comebacks. And holy shit at 5:09!

[BulletMagnet]

New GG character.

[BulletMagnet]

Revelator coming Westward on June 7th.

[KAI]

KOF14 5th teaser trailer
K'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TEKKEN7FR Nina reveal

SFV cinematic story trailer feat dicaprio

Koihime Enbu is finally coming out tomorrow on PS3/4