Fudoh's ode to old display technology

[FinalBaton]

The NEC and Mitsubishi sets still have one or two things over the Multisync PVM and BVMs. They have higher caps on horizontal sync frequencies (85khz on mine) and are much more flexible in the resolutions they'll accept, since they were designed to be used with PCs and the like.

Yeah this is actually really useful. Mine syncs up to SXGA in progressive scan and I plan to plug my computer in it and run MAME. No hassle.

[Fudoh]

Running MAME in high resolution will require you to use HLSL or something similar. You can try to disable D3D and run MAME in D2D mode instead (linedoubled 480p output to your monitor). At least give both ways a try to see what suits you better.

[OldSchoolGamer1203]

Hello all. This is my first time on Shmups. I skimmed through this thread for the most part and got an idea. Would you consider these monitors the best for their respective resolutions? I'm looking for the best CRT monitors possible, the cost doesn't matter to me:

240p = Sony BVM-20F1U?

480i (4:3) = Sony BVM-20F1U?

480p (4:3) = Sony PVM-20L5?

480i (16:9) = Sony BVM Sony BVM D32E1WU?

480p (16:9) = Sony BVM D32E1WU?

720p = Sony BVM Sony BVM D32E1WU?

1080i = Sony BVM Sony BVM D32E1WU?

[Fudoh]

For 240p this really depends on the look you're aiming at. Different tubes, different pixel structure and different looks. The BVMs are quite different from what you might have in mind when you think of RGB in the arcades.

For 480p there's also the D20 in 4:3.

[FinalBaton]

For 240p this really depends on the look you're aiming at. Different tubes, different pixel structure and different looks. The BVMs are quite different from what you might have in mind when you think of RGB in the arcades.

^^^^
This

What I,ve learn while browsing this forum is that : tastes vary greatly when it comes to 240p signals. Some like the soft shadow mask of arcade monitors, others prefer the "thight" pixel structure but "somewhat soft" rendering of mid-grade PVMs, and other swear by the "cut-through-your-eyes" incredible sharpness of BVMs.

So unless you state your preferences, there's no way for us to legitimately help you

What look do you prefer for each resolution?

A crude shadow-mask pixel structure that results in some blur, like an arcade monitor?
Or a crude aperture grill with so-so scolor separation, like a consumer Sony TV?
Or a mid-grade PVM where the color separation is excellent but where you have a good deal of blooming going on?
Or a High-grade PVM/ a BVM where the sharpness is pinpoint but you still have that CRT glow?
Or a Mitsubishi/NEC multisync shadowmask where the pixel structure is rougher but color separation is still pretty good and the image is very crisp overall?

[Ed Oscuro]

You can try to disable D3D and run MAME in D2D mode instead (linedoubled 480p output to your monitor).

DirectDraw? It comes with a bad speed penalty since Windows 8, unfortunately, something to keep in mind.

Didn't know API choice allowed different resolutions...

[tacoguy64]

Gotta agree with most of what is being said, it is really up to the person to decide what picture they like best. Sadly, most pictures and videos on the internet are really crappy and wont give you the full on experience of seeing them in person. Though phonedorks videos do a really good job, but aside from his videos, most other videos suck.

So all you are left with is peoples impressions and opinions. Which is what I went with when I decided to get a couple of crt's myself. The BVM monitor is my favorite 240p picture. And nobody would argue with the fact that they are also the best in terms of how high end it is. The BVM has the best colors, great brightness, and is the sharpest of displays. I imagine the picture quality is about the same with the bigger BVM models. It would probably really be hard to tell which one is best if they were all next to each other. There is a reason why these monitors were selling for over $10,000 when they were brand new.

For 480p and higher, this is where things get a bit more muddled. I haven't done much playing with hi res content on the BVM but from the playing that I have done, BVM monitors would be really up there. The BVM is comparable to the Sony FW900 which is one of the nicest pc crt monitors i've ever seen. The contrast in that monitor is superior to that of the BVM that I own. I know it's one of the higher tiered pc monitors but there are some other ones that might give it a good run for its money like the diamondtron 22 inch monitor.

[KatKya]

CRTs for sure are difficult to photograph, with full decent full screen shots being quite the task. Trying to get decent video of a small portion of the screen, let alone the full picture is another thing entirely.
I don't have nearly as nice equipment as phonedork, but I'd like to think I've manage to get at least some halfway decent results; Well, the stuff from the past 2-ish months at least.
Sonic 2 onward is with a considerably better camera.

Spoiler

Full res: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5640/2346 ... f147_o.jpg

Genesis version of Battletoads, RGB SCART cable from r_c_a, on the previously mentioned XC-3730c.

[FinalBaton]

CRTs for sure are difficult to photograph, with full decent full screen shots being quite the task. Trying to get decent video of a small portion of the screen, let alone the full picture is another thing entirely.
I don't have nearly as nice equipment as phonedork, but I'd like to think I've manage to get at least some halfway decent results; Well, the stuff from the past 2-ish months at least.
Sonic 2 onward is with a considerably better camera.

Spoiler

Full res: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5640/2346 ... f147_o.jpg

Genesis version of Battletoads, RGB SCART cable from r_c_a, on the previously mentioned XC-3730c.

Yeah your CRT pics are really nice!

[nissling]

I recently tried to shoot some off my BVM and with some tweaking it got somewhat decent. What do you guys think? I think I spent two minutes or so however so don't expect too much.

https://youtu.be/UPqxsK1JtYg

[Fudoh]

Didn't know API choice allowed different resolutions...

if you run 480p with D3D the game will be scaled to actually fill the screen. When you do the same with DD the game gets linedoubled (e.g. 224 to 448 and then padded with black to fill the screen). Makes quite a difference.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

the 20" are awesome when you are playing close to the monitor.. The xm29 is great if you are playing over 6 feet away.. When I am playing close on the xm29, my eyes start hurting.

XM29 does not perform like the higher end BVM's. Plus having a gigantic 29" surface to play around with compared to the puny 20" on the SONY's it looks good from any distance.

It bears mentioning again and again, if you can get your hand on an XM29 or PVM 2950/2530 there is no reason for any hesitations.

[kamiboy]

You must have sensitive eyes. Personally I love playing with my nose right up in the screen, that is why candy cabs are so cool.

[SNK-NEO-GEO]

Not sensitive, the age is catching up to me.. I am still good with cady cabs:)

You must have sensitive eyes. Personally I love playing with my nose right up in the screen, that is why candy cabs are so cool.

[tacoguy64]

You must have sensitive eyes. Personally I love playing with my nose right up in the screen, that is why candy cabs are so cool.

I'm not sure about candy cabs but these presentation monitors have a really high dot pitch. I know my NEC has a dot pitch of .85 mm which is way higher than the dot pitch of a good pc crt of .26 mm or lower. That might explain the eyestrain you may get if you play one of these presentation displays up close. I do know that having a higher dot pitch allows you to see the picture more clearly from afar while the lower dot pitch monitors excel when you sit up close.

Aside from that, crt's do put more of a strain on your eyes than lcd. I don't have any scientific back up to that claim but instead am relying on my own experiences.

[cfx]

.

[FinalBaton]

CRTs for sure are difficult to photograph, with full decent full screen shots being quite the task. Trying to get decent video of a small portion of the screen, let alone the full picture is another thing entirely.
I don't have nearly as nice equipment as phonedork, but I'd like to think I've manage to get at least some halfway decent results; Well, the stuff from the past 2-ish months at least.
Sonic 2 onward is with a considerably better camera.

Spoiler

Full res: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5640/2346 ... f147_o.jpg

Genesis version of Battletoads, RGB SCART cable from r_c_a, on the previously mentioned XC-3730c.

Are these pics from the PVM-20m2mdu that can be seen in your blog header?

[FinalBaton]

Aside from size how does it compare to your FV300? Are you moving over to the XM37 for SFA3 now?

The BVM is a fascinating monitor, colors and sharpness are incredible but the scanlines are very thick (this is especially bothersome on 3D consoles such as PS1 and up), and from a distance the image suffers from being too blocky and loses a lot of the attributes I love from higher end consumer sets even in the same size range.

Yes SFA3 sessions have moved to the XM 37 Plus

I would say the biggest improvement on the NEC over the FV300 is the color accuracy. The FV300, while it can produce saturated tones, tends to mire the whole picture with a similar tint (reddish in the "warm" color temp's case).
The NEC in comparison reproduces colors way more faithfully to the source, and colors are very well separated from each other, wich is sadly something the FV300 can't pull off as well.

Another big thing is that on the FV300, in comparison to the NEC, you have either saturated colors over the whole screen, or none at all depending of your settings.
On the NEC, saturated colrs coexist with toned-down ones on the same image, and every color will look rich still.

Also. picture definition is definitely thighter on the NEC. Character sprites' edges in a game, for example, are extremely well defined. the FV300's have a bit of noise around them in comparison.

That said, the FV300 is still a totally awesome consumer set. It has quite a nice glow and I have never seen a consumer set with better color accuracy yet (even though this aspect pales in comparison to a professional monitor's). It's dot pitch is pretty damn good too. I couldn't find the specs but on my 36" I mesured 1.1 mm, wich is good for the size. The NEC (35'' viewable 5:4 screen) has a dot pitch of 0.85 mm. It definitly has an enjoyable picture, it's a fuzzy look (color-wise) but it's still fun.

[OldSchoolGamer1203]

For 240p this really depends on the look you're aiming at. Different tubes, different pixel structure and different looks. The BVMs are quite different from what you might have in mind when you think of RGB in the arcades.

For 240p, I don't really mind, just one that will simply satisfy me enough.

For 480p there's also the D20 in 4:3.

You're referring to the Sony BVM-D20F1U, correct? Should I choose that or the Sony PVM-20L5?

[KatKya]

Spoiler

Full res: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5640/2346 ... f147_o.jpg

Genesis version of Battletoads, RGB SCART cable from r_c_a, on the previously mentioned XC-3730c.

Are these pics from the PVM-20m2mdu that can be seen in your blog header?

That photo (they're the same one, just at different scales) is from a Mitsubishi Megaview 37 Pro, or model number XC-3730c.
The different videos are labeled, and the ones posted to the blog are usually labeled in the tags; At the very least to divide up the Megaview stuff and 14/20M2MDU/0EV203 PVMs.

This is of the 20M2MDU, which is sadly on it's last legs. It's getting those shadows in bright to dark transitions pretty badly now. I can only assume that the tube is finally giving out.

Spoiler

This is also with the brightness turned down slightly.

I also just noticed some ringing right now, but seemingly only with this cable; The cheap chinese one that wasn't even wired properly at first doesn't seem to have them. Strange.

[Taiyaki]

What dark to dark shadows in light areas are you talking about?

[FinalBaton]

@KatKya
I was checking the pics in your blog. didn't noticed the tags that state either PVM or Megaview.

Sucks that the 20m2mdu is giving out...
At least you have a 14m2mu. Ihave a 1354Q, wich is the prdecessor to the 14m2mu and basically the same. That thing looks damn awesome.
And your Sonic 2 and Keio Flying Squadron pics show that! looks great

[KatKya]

Things that are bright will have shadows flowing off of them in both directions. It's especially noticeable on bright stuff on black backgrounds, but in noticeably bad cases, it's even visible on bright screens.

https://a.pomf.cat/vpurus.webm
If you'll notice, when the bumper goes up, the shadow over towards Tails goes up as well.
It does that with everything. The higher the brightness, the more so. Before I lowered it for that Battletoads photo, they were quite apparent.
They're actually pretty difficult to get a camera to pick up, but as time goes on, that difficulty goes down. Still, I don't think I'll ever be able to get it terribly cleanly on video.


@FinalBaton
Weird. Not that they have every last post of said monitors(nobody's perfect), but they under the Mitsubishi Megaview and Sony PVM tags respectively. One of these days, I'll stop being so lazy, and throw up links to various tags in the sidebar.
I'm really loving this camera; As well as the old one(s) served, the sheer jump in quality from one to the other still has me taken aback.

As for the monitor, it is depressing but it's served me well for the past 2-3 years and as you said, I have the 14M2MDU(which has quite a number of it's own problem, but are hopefully fixable) and the OEV203 which is for all intents and purposes a re-badged 20M2MDU.

[FinalBaton]

What camera are you using KatKya?

[Taiyaki]

I tried looking really carefully on the video but what I see are light trails and I believe that's completely normal for phosphors to do. Maybe I'm just not getting the flaw on the video. When you say brightness do you mean what is now a days known as brightness or light intensity/picture or do you mean contrast (setting used to be called brightness on Sony crt's and most others)?

EDIT: Ok maybe I do see it. It looks as if the light is being sent away from Tails tail even though the tail did not actually go over that area of the picture.

[KatKya]

What camera are you using KatKya?

A Sony DSC-RX100 that I picked up "open box" at the beginning of October. Again, it's nowhere near the DSLRs and lighting equipment phonedork has access to, but it' one hell of an upgrade from the 7 year old Kodak I was using.

I tried looking really carefully on the video but what I see are light trails and I believe that's completely normal for phosphors to do. Maybe I'm just not getting the flaw on the video. When you say brightness do you mean what is now a days known as brightness or light intensity/picture or do you mean contrast (setting used to be called brightness on Sony crt's and most others)?
My PVMs have both brightness and contrast knobs, so I'm going to go with the former.

EDIT: Ok maybe I do see it. It looks as if the light is being sent away from Tails tail even though the tail did not actually go over that area of the picture.

Here's a better video. Downscaling the video makes it show up better for whatever reason. This is with the brightness of the CRT raised slightly above it's default setting, and the ISO of the camera raised from 200 at the beginning of the video to 1600 for the second half.
Ignore the ringing, but note the trails coming out as the start prompt flashes.

[Bancho]

Taking photos can be difficult of monitors but with persistence you can end up with some great looking shots.

Here are some shots of the 14m2e running an NESRGB famicom.




And this is the JVC bm-h2000pn-k

[arcade-stg]

It would be great to have a new thread to gather advice about taking photos to CRTs.

[Einzelherz]

For 240p this really depends on the look you're aiming at. Different tubes, different pixel structure and different looks. The BVMs are quite different from what you might have in mind when you think of RGB in the arcades.

For 240p, I don't really mind, just one that will simply satisfy me enough.

For 480p there's also the D20 in 4:3.

You're referring to the Sony BVM-D20F1U, correct? Should I choose that or the Sony PVM-20L5?

If you've got a 20L5 you're able to pass up, I'll gladly take it

[Fudoh]

haha, yeah, some people make it sound as if you could walk into a store and choose what you want. Unfortunately beggars can't be choosers.