"It's not the same". Emulation/Control: arcade games

[Battlesmurf]

Did a search for similar things- didn't find anything specifically like the topic I'd like to chat about, nor anything recent.

What kinds of games are better in the arcade? Preferably due to unique control schemes or emulation issues. The criteria for this specific one- not gun games, not driving games.

Examples- Ikari Warriors- LS30 Rotary sticks. I loved the controls as a kid. Search and Rescue- same deal-topped off with the violence and 80s action movie vibe. Arkanoid-I dug the spinners. Kind of an upgraded pong.

Mad Planets, Rampart, Marble Madness, Robotron.

If you bring some games, let's talk about what makes them a little special to you, and why you brought them up.

[Hagane]

Basically, any game with dedicated cabinets or controls is better on the real thing.

Leaving aside technical stuff, the main reason why emulation will never quite be the same as playing in the arcade is the social component arcades have, which is impossible to replicate on home systems even with online services.

Fighting games, a fully social genre that can only be truly enjoyed by playing against another human, are a good example. Facing your opponent in real life is just completely different than online for a variety of reasons, and then there's the unavoidable issue of input delay, too.

[GaijinPunch]

Anything w/ a custom controller that is hard to replicate, or of course fully hydraulic setups. The Sega Taikan games, Night Striker, and as you said Ikari Warriors (although the latter isn't that that hard to alleviate, although not cheap). multi-screen games (Ninja Warriors) are a bitch to do at home, but possible. Ironically, of all these I've mentioned, Shou in Tokyo has done a fairly good job of getting set up in his home (save the moving cabinets).

For games of late, there are pieces that are lost in the ether. Virtua Fighter 4 was the first arcade game to really take advantage of the internet (that I gave a shit about anyway). But, even though I still have my cards, they are just for nostalgia, as the data is long gone, and any rig that could handle it as well. Lots more internet-friendly games these days which will share the same fate, I'm afraid.

Finally: Track ball games are notoriously cunty to set up a panel for.

[Despatche]

I've heard that stuff like the Dariuses and The Ninja Warriors are getting hard to find in Japan, is that true? If so, that's a real shame.

[Xyga]

Played Space Harrier Deluxe once... never been the same again no matter the port/emu.
EDIT: the cabinet moves instantly following the slightest joystick movement, also the monitor feels kind of special, I don't hink I have seen another one like that.

Also Prop Cycle lol, pedaling to get those balloons is really something impossible to replicate, the cabinet even blows air to your face to simulate acceleration.

[Battlesmurf]

Anything w/ a custom controller that is hard to replicate, or of course fully hydraulic setups. The Sega Taikan games, Night Striker, and as you said Ikari Warriors (although the latter isn't that that hard to alleviate, although not cheap). multi-screen games (Ninja Warriors) are a bitch to do at home, but possible. Ironically, of all these I've mentioned, Shou in Tokyo has done a fairly good job of getting set up in his home (save the moving cabinets).

For games of late, there are pieces that are lost in the ether. Virtua Fighter 4 was the first arcade game to really take advantage of the internet (that I gave a shit about anyway). But, even though I still have my cards, they are just for nostalgia, as the data is long gone, and any rig that could handle it as well. Lots more internet-friendly games these days which will share the same fate, I'm afraid.

Finally: Track ball games are notoriously cunty to set up a panel for.

Shou was actually my motivation behind this thread. I like what he's done with lots of those custom controllers. I'm working on a Mad Planets Egret 2 panel, I have a Forgotten Worlds/Arkanoid panel- just working on these things and keeping occupied. It's a pipe dream, but I'd love to play Marble Madness with a legit trackball. Looking for ideas and seeing what else it out there and doable.

I purchased a Darius Burst cabinet- I want to look at emulation for some of the 3 screen games and see how bad they fair on something like that.

I hear you on the internet stuff. Darn shame, too. (Side note- we're getting old when we can talk about "Back in our day" and there are kids out there that haven't played most of the games we play).

Agreed on the track ball stuff. I ended up getting lucky with a 3p rampart panel- the idea of making one from scratch made me dry up.

[BrianC]

Arkanoid-I dug the spinners. Kind of an upgraded pong.

Robotron.

Arkanoid for NES/FC has paddle support. Paddles are harder to find for the US version, but they work great, and the US version has three extra levels and an easier level 3 compared to the JP FC version. edit: More like an upgraded Breakout. I prefer the 2600, Video Pinball, and Atari 800 versions of Breakout and Super Breakout over other conversions due to paddle support.

Most home versions of Robotron support dual sticks. It's not a hard thing to configure in MAME, though early MAME and other emulations of it like the Digital Eclipse/Backbone versions have other issues like the game running too fast. The 7800 version of Robotron is especially good.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Anything with a vector monitor I suppose.

[BrianC]

I definitely prefer games with trackball over their emulated versions. I still play ports/emulations with well adapted controls, but it's not the same using the controls of the arcade version. I especially liked it when games like Millipede and Reactor for 2600 were hacked to use true analog trackball control (the carts work with a 2600 Trak Ball, but only in joystick mode, which is just not the same). The Atari 800 Missile Command, despite not using 3 buttons, is one of the few official games that makes use of the trackball mode and it's a blast to play.

[bulbousbeard]

There's no reason you can't put a MAME box in an arcade cabinet and have the same social component you get with an arcade.

There's really no input you couldn't connect to a PC and hook up in MAME. Rotary controls, etc. are all possible with MAME setups. It's just a matter of whether you're willing to dish out the money for them.

[1up]

Paperboy and Atari Star Wars come to mind.

There's just no way to built a controller similar to the Paperboy handlebars. The experience is special. The game plays fine on home console but the the experience is just not the same.

Star Wars has this Knight Rider steering wheel kind of controller. The game plays fine in MAME with a flight stick, but the arcade controller is something else.

[Obiwanshinobi]

There's no reason you can't put a MAME box in an arcade cabinet and have the same social component you get with an arcade.

The social component is gone, though. At least around here, it lies buried with the times when skinheads lived in the cities. Some things just implode like that (think Western movies in nineteen-sixties).

As for "special" controllers, banana stick of Monkey Ball is the one I hope to try out one of these days.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Space Tactics.

A unique cab setup where the screen moved around your crosshairs and you had a bunch of tiny buttons to launch individual countermeasures from your cities. Sat in a dark cab with all that going on was amazing as a kid.

[Hagane]

There's no reason you can't put a MAME box in an arcade cabinet and have the same social component you get with an arcade.

Not really, since you would also need an arcade center for that too.

[BryanM]

No reason you can't just rent out a spot at your local mall and be the creepy old dude who lives there 24/7.

And the end, the arcade scene died from a lack of creepy old dudes unwilling to rent out spaces and put machines on free play.

[waiwainl]

Darius is an example that works better in arcade because of the wide screen and overall experience, multi player.

Personally I do not see odd controls as a key thing for arcade, but it might be a hassle to enable it in emulation.

Accuracy is another, not everything is emulated that good yet.

[Strikers1945guy]

Completely agree for anything like Ikair Warriors that uses n LS-30 Rotary Stick. The real deal is mind blowingly awesome compared to anything ported or via emulation. I remember buying an Ikari Warriors PCB and holding onto it for over a year before I found a NOS LS-30 to finally rig up and use with the game. Fun times.

As far as the accuracy question, then there's the later a cave games that don't play at all like the real pcbs as far as slowdown goes (Ibara for example). If you have a decent PC rig already and a prefer method of input like a keyboard then by all means emulation works for lots of people.

Me on the other hand I haven't owned a PC in years. There's only a handful of emulated games I'd want to play that I don't already own with PCBs / decent enough ports along with an arcade stick for said console. I see no benefit in dropping hundreds of $$$ on a new PC + buying some sort of stick to play shmups with as keyboards suck imo then having trap15 not even have released the Ibara patch for the slow down anyways making it unplayable (or at least unenjoyable) for me.

A year or two ago you could get an Ibara PCB for $300 or even less. Build a stick and a supergun yourself on the cheap for like $150-200 and have the real deal was always for me way more appealing than emulation but to each their own.

If you're only into older shmups then emulation would be for you probably, aside from the games mentioned above where things like trackballs and rotary sticks really do make all the difference.

[bulbousbeard]

As far as the accuracy question, then there's the later a cave games that don't play at all like the real pcbs as far as slowdown goes (Ibara for example).

That's just a temporary thing. It's not a problem with emulation itself. Given enough time, most of those types of errors will be fixed. I remember when people said that MAME would never emulate CPS2 games just because it hadn't been done at that point.

[Strikers1945guy]

As far as the accuracy question, then there's the later a cave games that don't play at all like the real pcbs as far as slowdown goes (Ibara for example).

That's just a temporary thing. It's not a problem with emulation itself. Given enough time, most of those types of errors will be fixed. I remember when people said that MAME would never emulate CPS2 games just because it hadn't been done at that point.

Okay well my answer still stands for the current state of emulation regarding cave SH3 stuff. Again though my point was more geared towards the fact that I don't even own a PC.

So say i wanted desperately to play Ibara. My 3 options are

1. Buy a new PC & arcade stick & play crappy ibara emulation

2. Buy and import a PS2 & ps2 arcade stick & Ibara copy for ps2. Play the no slowdown make your eyes bleed port

3. Make myself a cheap ass super gun and stick and back a year or so ago get an Ibara pcb for $300.

A decent PC rig with Monitor and stick or an import ps2 + stick + expensive copy of ibara would be around the pice of a cheap as hell supergun set up build by yourself and the Pcb. So weighing my options I'd rather have the real deal.

I get it though it's hassle and many are super happy with mames current setup or the ps2 port. I was just answering the question on accuracy as it pertained to games I want to play !

Also this feels off topic really to what the TC wanted to talk about so I'm done sorry

[Xyga]

Putting aside games/systems still with accuracy issues, you can get extremely close with 15Khz emulation.

What annoys me the most with MAME though is how complicated and hermetic the various analogue controls settings are.
Seriously I've bothered for playing Ghox and Puchi Carat once using a DualShock...took me maybe two hours, one to find the working settings, one to adjust.
I think it's best to make custom .cfg or .ini for each game, in order to carry the configurations around with builds etc, but that's a fucking ton of work for anyone who's serious about playing those games with non-generic controls and overall setups.

If we stay in the zone of well-emulated titles, then almost anything can be done with MAME, but even so does that mean it's worth the trouble ?
There are people around who reproduce/rebuild entire fucking cabinets from sticker to ashtray, just for the one game they love...and they put a PC w/ MAME inside... at that point just buy the pcb people (unless it has become INSANELY EXPENSIVE or has become as rare as a smiling civil servant).

[soprano1]

Xyga, mind posting the config you did with Puchi Carat? Trying to make it work on a Dual Shock 2, as well as Arkanoid Returns.

[GaijinPunch]

I've heard that stuff like the Dariuses and The Ninja Warriors are getting hard to find in Japan, is that true? If so, that's a real shame.

They've been hard to find for ages.

[arcade-stg]

I purchased a Darius Burst cabinet- I want to look at emulation for some of the 3 screen games and see how bad they fair on something like that.

You should check this link
http://gentukiban.nobody.jp/dariusac.html

[Xyga]

Xyga, mind posting the config you did with Puchi Carat? Trying to make it work on a Dual Shock 2, as well as Arkanoid Returns.

Sorry dude I don't have it anymore, plus that was quite some time ago on an old-ass build, I don't remember the details as it was damn tricky.
I think you had to look for the right settings where to define the X/Y axis, then adjust sensitivity for each in another menu with sliders (could be done while playing iirc).

[Battlesmurf]

Oh man. Thanks! I need to find a way to get this translated- but seeing Ninja Warriors and the other games is *exactly* what I want to get going on that thing. I see other things about speakers and transducers that have my curiosity as well.

I purchased a Darius Burst cabinet- I want to look at emulation for some of the 3 screen games and see how bad they fair on something like that.

You should check this link
http://gentukiban.nobody.jp/dariusac.html

[Obiwanshinobi]

So say i wanted desperately to play Ibara. My 3 options are

1. Buy a new PC & arcade stick & play crappy ibara emulation

2. Buy and import a PS2 & ps2 arcade stick & Ibara copy for ps2. Play the no slowdown make your eyes bleed port

3. Make myself a cheap ass super gun and stick and back a year or so ago get an Ibara pcb for $300.

A decent PC rig with Monitor and stick or an import ps2 + stick + expensive copy of ibara would be around the pice of a cheap as hell supergun set up build by yourself and the Pcb. So weighing my options I'd rather have the real deal.

You forgot about a modded any region PS2 and burnt copy of Ibara.
By the way, PSX or PS2 controler via number of cheap adapters work with PC and consoles other than PlayStation.

[soprano1]

Xyga, mind posting the config you did with Puchi Carat? Trying to make it work on a Dual Shock 2, as well as Arkanoid Returns.

Sorry dude I don't have it anymore, plus that was quite some time ago on an old-ass build, I don't remember the details as it was damn tricky.
I think you had to look for the right settings where to define the X/Y axis, then adjust sensitivity for each in another menu with sliders (could be done while playing iirc).

OK, thanks anyway, i'll try it again today.

[SuperDeadite]

For Marble Madness, the X68000 port is about as close as it gets to the arcade. The trackball is damn hard to find these days though.

https://youtu.be/7g7j0iv2QYg?t=9m7s

[Strikers1945guy]

For Marble Madness, the X68000 port is about as close as it gets to the arcade. The trackball is damn hard to find these days though.

https://youtu.be/7g7j0iv2QYg?t=9m7s

I need that in my life

[munchiaz]

I feel one of the main reasons why Japan excel at fighting games is because the arcades are still alive and kicking there. Playing online, or with a group of friends is not the same as putting money on the line, and playing random people in an arcade. I'm really curious on how street fighter 5 will go since it's not getting an arcade release