OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[Rune]

Fitting a HDMI port means having to pay royalties (I think its something like $10,000 a year, correct me if Im wrong).

Seeing how audio isnt present on the HDMI output anyway, DVI-D is the best way to go.

[lettuce]

Fitting a HDMI port means having to pay royalties (I think its something like $10,000 a year, correct me if Im wrong).

Seeing how audio isnt present on the HDMI output anyway, DVI-D is the best way to go.

I though audio 'was' possible over DVI??

[BuckoA51]

It's totally possible, just not on this device (not without significantly increasing the cost of it).

[lettuce]

It's totally possible, just not on this device (not without significantly increasing the cost of it).

Thats a shame, how much more are we talking?

[marqs]

It's totally possible, just not on this device (not without significantly increasing the cost of it).

Thats a shame, how much more are we talking?

Even if not officially supported by the standards, it is possible to output HDMI signal (excluding Ethernet channel) via a DVI-D connector, so in theory audio is possible. However, as soon as any part of HDMI (including output signal type) is adopted you'll be entering a grey area when it comes to licensing. Also, audio support would require a separate audio ADC (not expensive though) and PCB size increase (especially if separate audio input connectors were added for each video input).

[lettuce]

It's totally possible, just not on this device (not without significantly increasing the cost of it).

Thats a shame, how much more are we talking?

Even if not officially supported by the standards, it is possible to output HDMI signal (excluding Ethernet channel) via a DVI-D connector, so in theory audio is possible. However, as soon as any part of HDMI (including output signal type) is adopted you'll be entering a grey area when it comes to licensing. Also, audio support would require a separate audio ADC (not expensive though) and PCB size increase (especially if separate audio input connectors were added for each video input).

This is small scale disruption though would it still fall under HDMI licenses?, surely there's loop holes where if its not commercially for sale then it doesn't apply, if its like under 500 units sold etc

For me i would happyly pay a bit more for a sku that has audio implemented into the DVI port

[emphatic]

Surely, using a DVI->HDMI cable works for most setups?

[lettuce]

Surely, using a DVI->HDMI cable works for most setups?

Theres the audio issue though, and could that introduce lag or sync issues though??

[Unseen]

Theres the audio issue though, and could that introduce lag or sync issues though??

It's always funny to see the lag panic on this forum. =)

A DVI-to-HDMI cable has two plugs and a number of wires that connect them, but no active electronics because HDMI is an extended version of DVI. The only lag such a cable introdues is due to the time the signal needs to make it from one end to the other, a useful rule of thumb for that is one nanosecond per foot.

[BuckoA51]

I think he means an active DVI plus analogue audio to HDMI integrator rather than a straight DVI to HDMI cable. Though, that won't introduce lag either since it's extremely unlikely they'd go to the expense of sticking a frame buffer into a device that doesn't need one.

This is small scale disruption though would it still fall under HDMI licenses?, surely there's loop holes where if its not commercially for sale then it doesn't apply, if its like under 500 units sold etc

Yeah there's an expensive tier for devices like that and a bloody expensive tier for other devices. HDMI consortium are greedy xxxxs

[Neo33]

This is a very nice project . I recorded a pre order. Can you keep informed me by email if you launch a new manufacturing?

[nonosto]

This very impresive....one version with HDMI sound support can be exist?

[OmegaKoopa]

Just found out about this through Fudoh's site and sent in a form request for one of these which looks very promising considering my main use will be its component inputs with dvi (or hdmi output?)

Im guessing this device wouldn't or doesnt support audio output through its HDMI output correct? I understand DVI doesnt carry the audio but just wondering if maybe in a future revsion such an option to integrate audio inputs would be possible?

Probably making a big deal about audio issues but its more about convinience than having to route seperate audio cables to my Edge/XRGB mini.

Also from my understanding will this have adjustable scanline density controls as well right? Very excited about this!

[Guspaz]

It does not support it, so you will need a DVI+Audio converter to do that. Monoprice makes one for $39:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id= ... 1&format=2

[bobrocks95]

Or a display with a separate HDMI audio input, or a receiver of some sort you can route audio to separately. Just so you know there's other options

[marqs]

Also from my understanding will this have adjustable scanline density controls as well right?

You probably mean scanline intensity, right? Opacity of every other output line (every third in linetriple mode) can be adjusted in several steps to emulate scanlines. It is also possible to select between even/odd lines or use columns instead of lines (vertical scanlines).

[Mantrox]

Also from my understanding will this have adjustable scanline density controls as well right?

You probably mean scanline intensity, right? Opacity of every other output line (every third in linetriple mode) can be adjusted in several steps to emulate scanlines. It is also possible to select between even/odd lines or use columns instead of lines (vertical scanlines).

Nice! Fully adjustable.
That got me thinking, with those options we could have horizontal scanlines in tate titles.
What would that look like? Has anyone tried it through other means?

How about a status update? How are the DIY kits coming along?
Still good for December?

Im in the first 50 for a full kit but anyway...

[Fudoh]

That got me thinking, with those options we could have horizontal scanlines in tate titles.
What would that look like? Has anyone tried it through other means?

If you rotate your display (tate), when your standard scanlines will do the trick anyway. The vertical scanlines are meant for vertical games running on a horizontal display (yoko), for example all the Cave ports on the 360 (minus Futari).

[Xyga]

Horizontal scanlines over yoko or tate for vertical shmups don't look nice at all on normal lcd's, the 60Hz refresh rate and usually the pixel response as well are way too low/slow for even the 'scanlines' effect to be visible when things are in movement, even more unlikely with scrolling shumps.
They're more or less fine with a strobing backlight technique though, depends which is used (the Sony stuff, nVidia ULMB, LightBoost...)
Vertical lines will look much better in this case, that's for sure.

[marqs]

How about a status update? How are the DIY kits coming along?
Still good for December?

I've managed to acquire all the hard-to-find components and should be able to assemble a final PCB (for verification) before Christmas. Firmware still requires some polish and a new plexiglass case needs to be designed, so January is more likely.

As for the pre-assembled boards, I'm currently in talks with a pcb company which should be able to handle manufacturing and assembly in a reasonable price.

[P1kas]

... should be able to assemble a final PCB (for verification) before Christmas.

Is this the unit that will be sent to Fudoh for review?

[marqs]

Is this the unit that will be sent to Fudoh for review?

That's the plan.

[Guspaz]

Fitting a HDMI port means having to pay royalties (I think its something like $10,000 a year, correct me if Im wrong).

Seeing how audio isnt present on the HDMI output anyway, DVI-D is the best way to go.

To clarify, the fees for being an HDMI licensee (which they call "HDMI Adopter") is:

Basic fees:
10,000 units or more: $10,000 USD per year plus $0.15 per device
0 - 10,000 units: $5,000 USD per year plus $1/unit plus $1.15 per device

Royalties may be reduced by anywhere from 5 to 9 cents per device by meeting certain requirements.

So for Marqs, it would be the $5k figure that applies.

There appear to be loopholes, however: a device manufacturer is not required to pay royalties on a device for using an item that has already had royalties paid. For example, if Marqs shipped a DVI to HDMI adapter with his product, he would not be required to pay HDMI royalties, because the HDMI royalty was already paid by the adapter manufacturer. This isn't really a complete solution, however, because all you could do then is emit a DVI signal over an HDMI port, which means no audio and no YPbPr signals. As soon as you started putting out audio over the DVI port, you're using the HDMI signaling, so...

Marqs would need to be selling hundreds or thousands of devices before the licensing fees would make sense. Per-device costs to include HDMI can be pennies on really big production run (example, the $5 RPi0 has licensed HDMI support), but small manufacturers like Marqs have it rough.

[Xyga]

I'm sure some people here will come with a 'DIY audio mod' or two for the OSSC soon after the first batch is released.

[yxkalle]

Display port?

[Guspaz]

Passive DisplayPort to HDMI adapters require the source to emit HDMI signalling, and so that doesn't solve the problem. Active DisplayPort to HDMI adapters don't need HDMI signals from the source, so that would indeed circumvent the problem, although the adapters cost two or three times as much (Monoprice charges $15.48). DisplayPort is also free to use: both the implementation and the connector (even Apple's MiniDP connector that most devices use) are royalty-free.

That said, the MPEG LA recently started claiming that they own patents on DP, and that they are owed $0.20 per device (no annual fee, just $0.20 per device). These are currently just claims, however, as nobody has tested their patent claims in court.

I've got no idea about the complexity of implementing DisplayPort with audio, though. It would make the device very flexible, since it could easily be converted to DVI, HDMI, or VGA with affordable active adapters, but maybe it's harder to implement.

[Ji-L87]

So uh, what happens if one doesn't pay the HDMI license? And since this is such a limited number of units, would they even know?

[Guspaz]

Nothing would happen unless they sued you or tried to have some organization like the FTC do something, I suppose. HDMI Licensing LLC claims that their licensing provides for essential patents (which ones is not clear), the use of the specification (not required, video is the same as DVI and audio is not hard to clean-room reverse), and use of the trademark (not required, just don't use the name "HDMI" anywhere, or use the name in a manner that does not violate trademark law).

They do talk about being active with US and EU customs and conduct raids in China to shut down unlicensed manufacturers, though it's not clear to me if that's just falling under simple trademark infringement (in the bootleg sense).

Personally, I doubt they care about small-run niche products like what this community cares about. They're more interested in managing people making unlicensed cables and chips. It would be interesting to ask people like Kevin and Marshall are doing in terms of HDMI licensing. I suspect that for Marqs, it was a moot point because there was no plan to support audio, and so it was just easier to avoid the problem by using DVI instead of HDMI since there was no loss of functionality.

[BuckoA51]

For the sake of using a simple DVI to HDMI adapter (or DVI plus analog audio to HDMI) I don't see that it's worth the risk.

[RGB32E]

It would be interesting to ask people like...

Or just let sleeping dogs lie.