TRP-STGT 2015 Conversation Week 3: Strikers 1945 (Japan)

[pegboy]

I think the main "problem" with Strikers (and Psikyo in general) is the entire experience just has virtually no room for error. There is a high level of memorization combined with very specific routes and precise movements and timing. All of that combined with only a single extend so you can only die 3 times total. You also lose all/most of your bombs on death, so the entire game is just very unforgiving in almost every possible way. I think this is actually true for pretty much any shmup that I'd actually call hard.

The first loop shouldn't be too bad assuming you have some save-states set up for practicing the bosses and later stages. Also, don't be afraid to use bombs fairly frequently, especially on the bosses. Without that, I'd say these games are nearly impossible unless you just want to sink unholy amounts of time into them.

I've spent the last 3+ months trying to 2-ALL Strikers II, and it's something you really have to become obsessed with in order to achieve. You need to know every little nuance, safe spot, trick and anything else that can possibly help you get through it. I've reached 2-8 in MAME (with the default stage order now lol) and chocked again at a crucial part because I dropped my power shot off a few pixels to the left from where I should have. That's all it took and my run over. It just goes to show how unforgiving these games are.

[Despatche]

Well, the thing with Strikers is that it doesn't have this complicated scoring system with all these variables. When you put a big scoring system like that in, you kinda wanna step back a bit on the raw difficulty. Something like Daioujou works well because the scoring system as a whole is a series of straight forward (but not easy!) things to do, while something like Mushi Maniac/Ultra or Futari Maniac is really terrifying because it's pretty complicated and really fucking hard, and this isn't even considering Mushi 1.5 or Futari 1.01. (Is 1.5 ULTIMAX even possible...?)

This statement completely ignores the execution factor, though. Just because you know what you have to do doesn't mean you're going to do it successfully every time. And just because something isn't random doesn't mean there isn't any value to be found in improvising - sure, it may not be the most efficient way to play the game, but I personally find myself coming back to Dodonpachi more than Dodonpachi Daioujou because its bullet patterns tend to be more open to improvisation and you're less likely to get completely walled in if you screw up herding the bullets.

I should have mentioned execution, sorry. I actually do mention it in my original rant I posted a few years ago, which might as well be described as a silly simple formula: skill = memorization + execution / weird human failings. Thing is, getting people to understand memorization is so much harder than getting them to understand execution.

The thing with improvisation is that... in a skill-based game, there really is a "right" way to do something. There might be a lot of different ways you can beat a pattern, but there's usually this "best" way, which can be determined by things like how well it sets you up for any scoring opportunity, or how much you have to do, or how hard it is to do at all. I suppose this makes more sense in a speedrun than a "scorerun", which is a word we should totally be using by the way, but when you look at an arcade game superplay it's basically like watching a good speedrun, and a good player will explain why they do certain things.

[Squire Grooktook]

A players fundamental skill is probably more like an rpg stat list then a formula*** IMO. Like:

Reflex Consistency*: 1-10
Execution: 1-10
Multi-tasking proficiency: 1-10
Analysis Ability**: 1-10

I'd also note that all 4 of the above fields can probably be further subdivided into a multitude of different skills (ie "simple reaction" vs "choice reaction", Analysis probably has a million of these...).

*

Spoiler

I say "consistency" because there is a hard limit to how fast a human being can react. However, most players do not consistently react at that speed. A 10/10 score would be a 9-10 frame reaction to every hazard (that's the limit, IIRC). 15 frames is roughly the average for a "good reaction" for most people IIRC.

**

Spoiler

This one is probably the "memorization skill" ie the ability to analyze a puzzle and come up with a correct solution. However, proficient enough analysis can be performed on the fly, making this relevant in other areas besides planning as well. Besides just getting the correct solution to a difficult puzzle, other factors contributing to a higher rating here would be the ability to come up with the most efficient solution when multiple solutions are possible, and the speed at which the solution is concocted.

I'd probably also count this one as "yomi" or "reading" ability in a fighting game, since it's the ability to analyze a situation and deduce a (probably) correct solution to a problem. Only difference is that in a shmup or a hack and slash you're analyzing a bullet pattern or enemy formation in order to find a way to deal with them, while in a fighting game you're analyzing the movements, actions, and "tells" of your opponents in order to predict and counter their next action. I suppose you could break this off into a separate skill of "reading" if you think that the two forms of analysis are too different from each-other.

I personally think they are both subsets under the umbrella of "ability to analyze".

***

Spoiler

"Skill" is probably too volatile to truly define numerically, but a "stat list" works better IMO because it explains why two players can spend the same amount of time on the same game and have trouble with completely different areas of the game (which I've seen too many times). Sometimes Player 1 has a hard time with boss X and an easy time with boss Y, while Player 2 has a hard time with boss Y and an easy time with boss X. The presence of different skillsets rather then a single over-riding amount of skill would explain this discrepancy.

Also I partially disagree that "any non random shmup is pure memorization". Score play? Maybe. For survival, it's more accurate to say "any non-telegraphing shmup is pure memorization". If the game telegraphs its hazards fairly, or at least has less non-telegraphed deaths then the number of resources you posses, then it is possible to survive without any memorization. Scoring is another matter, because you're trying to play the game "perfectly" (assuming that the game actually rewards you for perfect play, though!).

As for improvisation, randomness based improvisation doesn't need more then one solution (though it is possible to design several "best" ways to complete a challenge, which are equally challenging but in different ways, ie one might require a harder reaction but lower execution, while the other solution has the opposite balance). The trick with rng dodging patterns is that finding the path to the "best" solution, recognizing it, or pulling it all off, all suddenly involves on the spot thinking (aka improvisation) when randomness gets involved.

Like I said, my ideal pattern is something with a unique tactic and "flavor" thanks to dedicated design, but with enough of a small but important random element that players are forced to utilize their lizard brain to react and also make mental connections as they analyze the pattern on the fly each time. That "on the fly mental gymnastics" is my favorite thing in video games in general, regardless of genre.

Anyway back to Strikers:

The music is a bit bland to me (composition is fine, but it doesn't do much for me), but the sprite work is great, yeah. Definitely better then the pre-renders (?) in Dragon Blaze IMO.

[resty]

Talk a bit after some tries.

I'll put it in the OP in a moment, you are allowed to use a save-state to fix your stage order.

EDIT: Well actually, I need replays for top 3 anyways, so you can't use a save-state anyways. Don't do it I guess? I'll allow it, but I still need the replays.

Ok, this seems a popular game.

As of someone who have never played this game before, I'm trying to reduce the need of memorization (in this week).
So I have done some research on the save-states method told here.

It seems that after you pick up your ship, the order of first levels decided. So you can make a save-state right after your ship picked and see if it gives what you want. I just retried to get started with the tank level.
As for the replay, just let it recorded when streaming or by some other screen recording methods.

Is this way accepted for the tournament?

----

Back to the game, it is so heavily based on the route you use and mostly about execution.
Good thing is that it is short.
Bad thing is that 2nd loop is so damn hard.

[Blinge]

The final boss's last pattern with the slanted spread is so fucking nasty. I cannot wrap my head around it. trying to practice it and get hit every fucking time its insane.

on the verge of writing full length trouserplank style rants here..

edit: ahh just got the 1-ALL.

[CWM]

The final boss's last pattern with the slanted spread is so fucking nasty. I cannot wrap my head around it. trying to practice it and get hit every fucking time its insane.

on the verge of writing full length trouserplank style rants here..

edit: ahh just got the 1-ALL.

The spread can be dodged by just sitting under the boss. That whole final phase isn't too bad. In fact, the whole final boss seems kinda easy compared to Strikers II, I can pretty consistently NMNB it in practice, whereas in the sequel I had like three planned bombs.

Also just got the 1-ALL on a random credit. Is it just me or is recovering in this game more difficult than in Strikers II? You also seem to get a lot less power, I died on the stage 4 boss and basically played the subsequent two stages with two power. In Strikers II you'd get showered with power carriers the moment you dropped below max. On the other hand, being at two power didn't really make the game harder, so maybe there's some merit to rank control?

[PAPER/ARTILLERY]

I've really warmed to this game over the last few days, couldn't stand it at first but once I got my head around how it wants to be played it became a lot more enjoyable. It feels like you really have to approach it on it's own terms which I sort of respect, different to much of the stuff I usually play.

It's not the same level of quality as later Psikyo releases IMO, I really miss not having a melee attack (not that planes should really have a melee but y'know).

This might be the first game I clear as part of STGT (first loop only obvs).

[Squire Grooktook]

The final boss's last pattern with the slanted spread is so fucking nasty. I cannot wrap my head around it. trying to practice it and get hit every fucking time its insane.

on the verge of writing full length trouserplank style rants here..

edit: ahh just got the 1-ALL.

Congrats!

For future reference, the final boss's "strategy" is that he's trying to force you to the upper edges of the screen with his spreads so that the slanty spread will be awkward to dodge/read.

I aggressively zip from one edge of the screen to the other while he's shooting the spreads to draw them away, then place myself in the center of the screen so that I'll be able to read the slanty bullet pattern.

I've really warmed to this game over the last few days, couldn't stand it at first but once I got my head around how it wants to be played it became a lot more enjoyable...It's not the same level of quality as later Psikyo releases IMO, I really miss not having a melee attack (not that planes should really have a melee but y'know).

Yeah same. Although I must say, as much as I like Dragon Blaze's mechanics, in some ways I feel the patterns in this game are as good or better. Their simple but confusing and panicy, which I love. If the game had a bit more randomness, and more vital level design, it might be one of my favorites ever. As it is, I think it's just "pretty great" though.

[ProjectAKo]

The dude is exactly the same every time. If you sit on top of the fifth bomb icon, both slanty waves will miss.

[Blinge]

fifth bomb icon

Hahaha.. well, If I somehow become competent enough to have 5 bombs in the next 3 days I'll give it a try.

[ProjectAKo]

fifth bomb icon

Hahaha.. well, If I somehow become competent enough to have 5 bombs in the next 3 days I'll give it a try.

Sometimes I only get there with 4. You just eyeball 1 bomb length away at that point, there's quite a bit of room for error

[Tregard]

I find this game quite charming really, with its lovely sprite work and giant transforming bosses. Even when it kicks my ass with a fan of bullshit light-speed bullets I still kind of end up going "aw shucks, I can't stay mad at you!". I think the random stages at the start really helps the "one more credit" feeling, as well as the stages themselves being quite short. The bosses in Bee Storm probably took longer to take down than a stage + boss in Strikers. Got tired of that very quickly.

[Zerst]

I'm really shocked people can't even appreciate the cool music and amazing spritework going on here.

This is what really blows my mind, tbh. The art is really really detailed and impressive. The music has great composition too, which is unfortunately marred by the hideous samples on the YMF version. Play the unprotected set and you'll hear it as it was meant to be heard, or listen to this: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm11274027

I'm in the "can't stand psikyo music" camp and the better samples in the linked video still don't make it sound all that great to me. I can appreciate the composition in a lot of it, but everything is so muted that it just comes across as bland to me. It doesn't help that the arpeggiated trumpet sound they use in literally everything doesn't sit well with my ears.

[EmperorIng]

Psikyo's sprite-work, before they switched over to pre-renders, was excellent. Gunbird, Strikers 1945, and the Sengoku games all look great. I think because the setting of Strikers is a bit more "generic" it doesn't as easily show, except for the wild boss designs. That's not to say the pre-rendered stuff is clean and engagin - the bosses in Strikers 2 and Gunbird 2 look excellent imo.

[Hagane]

Ah, the usual silly remarks about Psikyo games being ultra strict memorizers. They are not any more memorization intensive than your usual STG, and they are definitely MUCH less memo heavy than Cave games when played for score.

The big problem, one I have mentioned maaany times before but that the complainers never try to address, is that most newcomers to Psikyo games try to play them as they would do in a danmaku game. This is, playing defensively with a wait-and-see approach, which makes things much much harder in most of their games because they aren't really designed to be played that way.

Here you must play more aggressively than in your usual STG, speedkilling threatening enemies before they can do much. Fail to do this and things will get out of hand very fast. For this you usually have some sort of close range technique that allows you to deal massive damage in a single go, such as charge shots (or in the case of Dragon Blaze, which takes this design philosophy to the limit, the dragon attack).

For more details, read my (unfinished) Sengoku Blade guide on the link on my sign.The basics from that game apply to almost all the "main" Psikyo games. When you get accustomed to Psikyo's distinct playstyle you will come to realize Nakamura's design genius.

[Zerst]

is that most newcomers to Psikyo games try to play them as they would do in a danmaku game. This is, playing defensively with a wait-and-see approach

Darn it, I always thought you played danmakus by closing your eyes and waiting for a certain note in the BGM to slightly tap right and there you go you've dodged the pattern good job.

[Lyv]

Here you must play more aggressively than in your usual STG, speedkilling threatening enemies before they can do much. Fail to do this and things will get out of hand very fast. For this you usually have some sort of close range technique that allows you to deal massive damage in a single go, such as charge shots (or in the case of Dragon Blaze, which takes this design philosophy to the limit, the dragon attack).

Except this doesn't really apply in this game.
Case in point : not shooting stuff is actually the safest way to handle a large part of the stages in the loop.

The only things you have to "speedkill" are a couple of enemies in each stage, which are usually so obvious it's like putting a red sign "Please use your charge shot here". And even letting these ones alive very rarely floods the screen with bullets.

[Eaglet]

Yup. This is a very memorizey game where later bosses have a ton of bullshit attacks that'll fuck you over if you haven't practiced them before.
Stages are nothing to speak of challenge wise in the first loop.


Also, music sucks as bad as in most Psikyo games and no, it's not because of the hardware.
Gunbird has a pretty OK OST but that's only because of composition.

[Squire Grooktook]

Psikyo's sprite-work, before they switched over to pre-renders, was excellent. Gunbird, Strikers 1945, and the Sengoku games all look great. I think because the setting of Strikers is a bit more "generic" it doesn't as easily show, except for the wild boss designs. That's not to say the pre-rendered stuff is clean and engagin - the bosses in Strikers 2 and Gunbird 2 look excellent imo.

I think my issue with Psyikyo's visual presentation is that their spritework is solid, but a lot of stages have the same kind of visual bland/generic feel that the music does.

For example, my absolute favorite Pysikyo stage, aestheticly, is the river of sunken buddhas from Sengoku Ace. It's creepy, cool, creative, atmospheric, etc. in comparison, almost everything else in that series is "just" a Japanese castle or village or some shit. Sometimes you get lava or some mechanical stuff thrown in, but nothing matches the sheer kookiness of that river.

Even Dragon Blaze, despite being pure fantasy, doesn't do anything that can match the Dungeon or Destroyed City in Mahou Daisakusen IMO.

That being said, I think this might actually work in Striker's favors. The realistic World War 2 aesthetic becomes a lot funnier when enemies transform into giant anime mechs or you end up fighting 1920's gangsters on the moon. Their sense of humor really shines through in this one.

*edit* okay, I guess the flying fortress in Ace is cool too. Come to think of it, the aesthetic in that game is a lot more grim then their later stuff.

Here you must play more aggressively than in your usual STG, speedkilling threatening enemies before they can do much. Fail to do this and things will get out of hand very fast. For this you usually have some sort of close range technique that allows you to deal massive damage in a single go, such as charge shots (or in the case of Dragon Blaze, which takes this design philosophy to the limit, the dragon attack).

Except this doesn't really apply in this game.
Case in point : not shooting stuff is actually the safest way to handle a large part of the stages in the loop.

The only things you have to "speedkill" are a couple of enemies in each stage, which are usually so obvious it's like putting a red sign "Please use your charge shot here". And even letting these ones alive very rarely floods the screen with bullets.

There's foreshadowing of Psyikyo's latter emphasis on melee in stage 1-4, whatever it may be. If you stay at the bottom of the screen and aren't very attentive to whatever shows up, there are several spots where things can become really overwhelming unexpectedly fast.

Yup. This is a very memorizey game where later bosses have a ton of bullshit attacks that'll fuck you over if you haven't practiced them before.
Stages are nothing to speak of challenge wise in the first loop.

It's not that bad compared to some of their other stuff. Dragon Blaze has like...5 different instances of barely telegraphed instant lasers with huge hitboxes, and half of its last boss patterns are designed to outright trap you if you're not correctly positioned before the pattern begins.

In comparison, the only patterns that are truly undodgeable on reaction are a few things on the last stage IMO.

[Despatche]

Zaarock and Hagane fighting the good fight. Can we get DBAC CFJ for a bonus week 6?

[Ikazu-san]

Did trap purposefully forget to include my score into leader board? Even the one where I DID got the format right?

[trap15]

No, I'm not a dick. Hold on.

EDIT: It's because you put formatting on your submission. Please don't do that.

[Ikazu-san]

Noted.