Nes rgb with composite colors?

[Gered]

The bottom line is, all previously cited examples of clearly incorrect colour choices in games (read: downright wrong colours, not more "vibrant" selections) made by the Nestopia YUV palette are fixed in FBX'S palette. I've encountered no game that it in turn throws off.

(Emphasis mine.)

I'd be careful with this line of reasoning. Short of you or someone else thoroughly testing each and every NES game in existance, I don't think we can yet say that there will be no "problem" games with FBX's palette (to be clear: I'm not saying it's a bad palette or anything like that).

Also, as I think has been made clear by the various replies to this thread, palette preferences are quite subjective. To offer my own $0.02 on the matter, I use the Playchoice RGB palette for almost every game I play as I much prefer it's vibrant colours.

Frankly I think Tim's justification for including the palette choices he does and why he doesn't really want to start offering alternate ones as a standard option makes sense. We just need to know if there is some way for people to flash some kind of alternate firmware with different palettes for those people who already have RGB modded their NES.

[yxkalle]

It would be nice of Tim to create a version of the firmware with another set of palettes for people with USB blasters.

[FBX]

There probably are games out there that would throw the palette off, and I'm sure someone will no doubt find a fringe example. In my case, I've been testing all the typical "top 100" favorites like all the Mega Mans, all the Castlevanias, all the SMBs, both Zeldas, Rygar, Bionic Commando, all the Ninja Gaidens, Punch-Out!!, Life Force, Goonies II, and so on. All of them look kosher from my end.

[Skips]

Play choice ten palette all the way.

[Gered]

Play choice ten palette all the way.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Play choice ten palette all the way.

You know that I think you're El Duderino for modding all of my stuff with your elite skilzz skips, but I don't know how you could put up with those garish colours; they make my eyes bleed . While I don't think I've ever encountered a positive usage of that word, I respect everyone's personal taste to use the palette of their liking; I'd still like to know if Tim has any method for getting FBX's palette on an already installed NESRGB. This for me would make my NESRGB experience ascend to gaming nirvana .

And that's really the point. Forget about all the "your project is dubious" or "there's too much variation in hardware" naysayers. If it looks good when you try it out, that's all that matters.

Amen brotha

[RGB32E]

It is one thing to make palette tweaks to make games more "palatable", it's quite another to proselytize a tweaked palette as "accurate".

You give it a number, it gives you a colour. There's no RGB involved on the programming side. The only way to see exactly what colour you get is to plug in the TV and have a look!

This! Thanks for the great information!

[Skips]

Play choice ten palette all the way.

You know that I think you're El Duderino for modding all of my stuff with your elite skilzz skips, but I don't know how you could put up with those garish colours; they make my eyes bleed . While I don't think I've ever encountered a positive usage of that word, I respect everyone's personal taste to use the palette of their liking; I'd still like to know if Tim has any method for getting FBX's palette on an already installed NESRGB. This for me would make my NESRGB experience ascend to gaming nirvana .

And that's really the point. Forget about all the "your project is dubious" or "there's too much variation in hardware" naysayers. If it looks good when you try it out, that's all that matters.

Amen brotha

I don't use it for every game out there but for the Mario games (which I play the most) I love how it looks, especially on the BVM.

[darcagn]

It's really less about using different games to "throw off" the palette; it's that you are using a specific NES and specific TV set for calibrating your palette. If you use different equipment to calibrate your own palette, you will likely end up with variations.

When it is said that it's a "nostalgia palette" it's your nostalgia. You're not factoring in that other people had TV sets with different signal decoders than yours.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Play choice ten palette all the way.

You know that I think you're El Duderino for modding all of my stuff with your elite skilzz skips, but I don't know how you could put up with those garish colours; they make my eyes bleed . While I don't think I've ever encountered a positive usage of that word, I respect everyone's personal taste to use the palette of their liking; I'd still like to know if Tim has any method for getting FBX's palette on an already installed NESRGB. This for me would make my NESRGB experience ascend to gaming nirvana .

And that's really the point. Forget about all the "your project is dubious" or "there's too much variation in hardware" naysayers. If it looks good when you try it out, that's all that matters.

Amen brotha

I don't use it for every game out there but for the Mario games (which I play the most) I love how it looks, especially on the BVM.

Yeah, I remember you telling me that, which makes perfect sense; the Play Choice 10 palette looks awesome with the SMBs, almost as if it was designed with them as a reference point.

To everyone else that's getting bogged down on the merits of FBX's custom palette, no one is claiming that it's the most accurate palette ever made, or that it's closer to nostalgic ideals by any objective measure. FBX was merely attempting to address some colour discrepancies in certain areas of the Nestopia YUV palette that some felt could use modification. If you like the changes for your tastes (like I do), then more power to you, if you don't care for it, then don't use it; no one is forcing you to accept it or evangelizing it as the one truth and the light- live and let live!

I'm still interested as to the feasibility of Tim offering some method for individuals who desire the freedom to load custom palettes into the NESRGB.

[Gered]

The way some of the previous posts had been written it sounded like some people were wanting Tim to start including FBX's palette as a standard option (I don't think anyone explicitly said this, but it seemed like that's where the conversation was going with people suggesting it could replace Garish or Improved, etc). Anyway, whatever, doesn't matter I agree with you that the most ideal thing would be the ability for user's to upload custom palettes should they not like the out-of-the-box choices. No idea whether that is possible or not right now, but would be nice for those interested for sure!

[RGB32E]

Gered, your post is a perfect example of a straw man argument. Unfortunately, custom FW is the only way to get custom palettes with the NESRGB. I'd imagine the Hi-Def NES could make this a simpler process via a flash cart ROM update. Is FBX banging on Kevtris' door yet?

[Gered]

Gered, your post is a perfect example of a straw man argument.

I don't think anyone explicitly said this

I guess I should be much more when I post something like that.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Anyone who expressed interest in modifying the stock NESRGB palette choices with FBX's custom palette hear back from Tim yet? Sounds like a few of us sent Tim an email regarding this subject, but it's been a week since he posted in this thread; I'm hopeful there's some news as to how we can go about updating our NESRGB installs with new palette data.

[leonk]

The NESRGB 1.7 software can be found here: http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fault/

Anyone care to download it, disassemble and hack in the new values?

[FBX]

Tim very kindly said he would look into making an optional download available. I'm cool with waiting until he's got it done up for us.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

Tim very kindly said he would look into making an optional download available. I'm cool with waiting until he's got it done up for us.

Wow, that is very attentive of Tim, I really appreciate that continued customer support! Any idea what palette the optional update might replace? I'd personally prefer if it replaces the Nestopia YUV palette ("Natural"), as your custom palette is obviously quite close to it, barring the areas that it modifies. Both the PC10 and improved palette have merit in my opinion, and would thus provide the same palette variation as before.

[leonk]

I'm still pondering what Tim said, specifically that the YUV palette in Nestopia was actually measured. Would be interested to find out more background on that.

I typically play on my PC using FCEUltra (I guess this and Nestopia are the most popular NES emulators, and hence why they were chosen). Playing ROMs side by side on the PC can clearly show you the difference between the 2. For instance, the sky in SMB is almost purple in Nestopia, but blue in FCEUltra. I now understand that the purple sky is actually more true to the original color (but the blue is more pleasing looking)

What I don't understand is the choice to use PC10. In the past, PC10 arcade PCB's were butchered for their RGB PPU. But the palette was off and even a few games didn't work with it. I believe PC10 games were specifically coded to use this different palette; no NES/Famicom game was created with the PC10 palette in mind. If one has to, I say shoot this one.

Personally, I like to keep my consoles looking as stock as possible. Once the firmware is made available, I would blast it onto my NESRGB, try it out, and if I like it, I'll hardwire it in.

[darcagn]

What I don't understand is the choice to use PC10. In the past, PC10 arcade PCB's were butchered for their RGB PPU. But the palette was off and even a few games didn't work with it. I believe PC10 games were specifically coded to use this different palette; no NES/Famicom game was created with the PC10 palette in mind. If one has to, I say shoot this one.

The PlayChoice 10 plays regular NES games with no modifications to the game code. PC10 games come on special PCBs (not NES cartridges) but the game code is the same. Over 50 games were available in the PC10 format. The games work on a timer; the more quarters you put in the more time you have to play the game. The arcade has the Garish/PC10 palette for all of these games. They weren't modified to look better with the RGB PPU palette or anything like that. Really, it's just an NES console on a timer.

The Famicom Titler home console in Japan also used the RGB PPU and has the Garish/PC10 palette for its output (it does S-video output as well). That console is incompatible with the games that are incompatible with the PC10 RGB PPU mod too.

Nintendo did have another arcade system called Versus that had specific games, not just generic NES games. Those games didn't come on PCBs but were a set of chips with the game code on it, and the chips included a CPU and RGB PPU (each game came with a CPU and RGB PPU). Those PPUs have the same RGB palettes but their palette values are scrambled around as a copy protection scheme (you can't just burn your own ROM chips because the colors would be messed up if you didn't have the correct associated PPU). But those palettes were still the Garish palette.

Clearly Nintendo didn't think it was that big of a deal to stick to a strict, single authentic palette. And as some have said in this thread, they prefer the Garish palette. And since some of those Versus titles have been converted to run on an NES console easily using an EverDrive/PowerPak, it's a good idea to keep that palette in. For example, I like to play Vs. Duck Hunt (which is significantly different than the normal NES Duck Hunt) and when I play that title I switch the NESRGB to Garish since that's how the original game was displayed in the arcades.

[telemetry]

Wouldn't it be pretty easy to dig through the later re-releases of games (GBA NES e-card releases, Super Mario Bros DX etc) to get the palette colors actually used in the NES games as intended? Or am I misunderstanding the argument of "objective values" versus "my nostalgia can only be satisfied by my particular TV signal's eccentricity"?

[bobrocks95]

The GBA re-releases of the Mario games had overly bright colors to make up for the initial lack of a backlight on the GBA. Those colors definitely aren't accurate, and similar color-tweaking could have been applied to any other re-releases.

And how'd they check the colors on those re-releases anyway? Did they pull numbers from the PPU, throw up "about what looked right", or ask the aging artists what color they had meant to use in a certain spot several years ago? It comes down to the same debate in here.

[darcagn]

The GBA re-releases of the Mario games had overly bright colors to make up for the initial lack of a backlight on the GBA. Those colors definitely aren't accurate, and similar color-tweaking could have been applied to any other re-releases.

And how'd they check the colors on those re-releases anyway? Did they pull numbers from the PPU, throw up "about what looked right", or ask the aging artists what color they had meant to use in a certain spot several years ago? It comes down to the same debate in here.

Not to mention those are ports, so that means they likely recreated the graphics with certain RGB values that don't correlate exactly to how the NES palette works. You might be able to use a game to make an exact palette that would work for that one single NES game just fine, but other games would be off with that kind of method.

[antron]

Wouldn't it be pretty easy to dig through the later re-releases of games (GBA NES e-card releases, Super Mario Bros DX etc) to get the palette colors actually used in the NES games as intended? Or am I misunderstanding the argument of "objective values" versus "my nostalgia can only be satisfied by my particular TV signal's eccentricity"?

I was under the impression that color's numerical values are known exactly, and are used by the natural pallet.

[FBX]

Wouldn't it be pretty easy to dig through the later re-releases of games (GBA NES e-card releases, Super Mario Bros DX etc) to get the palette colors actually used in the NES games as intended? Or am I misunderstanding the argument of "objective values" versus "my nostalgia can only be satisfied by my particular TV signal's eccentricity"?

I was under the impression that color's numerical values are known exactly, and are used by the natural pallet.

If it is derived from numerical values, it would have to be from a pre-analog conversion process. There's a universal consensus that at the very least, the greenish-blue entries at the end of the color addresses are decidedly too balanced at 50-50 in the YUV/natural palette. From the real console, just about everybody that's tested those colors finds that they are more blue oriented than 50-50. Examples of the color scheme are the underground levels in SMB, Level 1 in Legend of Zelda, and also of course demonstrated in this thread is the first Wily stage in Mega Man 2. With so many independent verifications of these entries being much more blue on the real console, it doesn't matter how accurate the YUV palette might be internally. It's simply not the same colors that leave the console itself.

[The_Atomik_Punk!]

...at the very least, the greenish-blue entries at the end of the color addresses are decidedly too balanced at 50-50 in the YUV/natural palette....it doesn't matter how accurate the YUV palette might be internally. It's simply not the same colors that leave the console itself.

Nestopia YUV on the left (NESRGB "Natural"), FBX palette on the right:

[Voultar]

I know that several of us (including myself) purchased Altera Blaster programmers to help everyone update their NESRGB with revised firmware during all of the bugs and issues in the beginning.

I would personally LOVE to have the "natural" palette replaced with FBX's final revised palette. It shouldn't be too much trouble for Tim to whip that up in an optional f/w update.

How 'bout it, Tim?

[FinalBaton]

To me it's not even as clear cut as saying "this color replaced by that one is better".

For example, in the pics above, the dark blue over the blue-green works better for me in Castlevania II and Mega Man 2, but to me both Faxanadu and Mario Bros. work better with the blue-green. Goes to show how subjective this is (and also, again, how different the TV sets we played on as kids display composite signals differently).

[bobrocks95]

I definitely remember Super Mario Bros. being much closer to the left picture on the TV I played it on as a child than the right. I would say it depends on how easy it is for Tim to provide the alternative firmware as to whether or not it's worth it.

[viletim]

I've put a new build up here. It replaces the Playchoice palette with FBX's one. I tried it for a few minutes today and it seems to work.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fault/

[kamiboy]

I like how these forums can discuss, with no hint of irony, the shade of the sky in a game where the trees are all brown.

Come on guys, most NES games, especially most of the early ones made up until the early 90's look like they were coloured in by blind people. I always chuckle when I play the Castlevania games as they seem to me to be the most coloured confused of the classics.

I also must commend how vividly people can remember the shade of NES games from their childhood, which must be a good twenty years ago now, when I could not do the same for games I played a few weeks ago.