Another day, another shooting in the US

[Skykid]

Going viral on facebook -


https://www.facebook.com/FilmingCops/vi ... 652744397/

Wrong thread, this belongs to the discussion in the thread regarding US shootings and gun control. A mod can move this post or I can repost.

Mod Edit: Moved.

[Ed Oscuro]

So, here's this thread, and here's something that Windows 10 throws at me in its news feed:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police ... ar-BBmH2ym
And the Tribune version of the same:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

Not the first time I've talked about this in the thread: Just because you're exercising your concealed carry rights does not mean that you should intervene. The Michigan case mentioned in the AP story is such a case (and not the worst recent case), and the Chicago case is more tricky. I think a good case could be made that the "good samaritan" was ending an immediate threat to death, but it has to be said, what happened to yelling for compliance first?

By coincidence, when I woke up today I found myself pondering how realistic the "don't point a firearm at anything you don't wish to destroy" and "be sure of your targets" rules of the Rules of Firearms Safety are. If you don't go around a corner with your firearm ready, and you think you might need to, you're at a disadvantage. On the other hand, if you walk around with a rifle raised, you might bump into a SWAT team who will put you down (and this has happened), or accidentally shoot somebody you thought you were trying to protect.

I think that, all things considered, the venerable Rules have got it right, even though the extra moment needed to bring up your weapon is a disadvantage, it stops you from making a split-second decision you'll regret the rest of your life. Most of the easy mistakes could be prevented if people simply took another moment to identify what was going on before they decided to draw down, and a lot of the rest would be prevented if people then acted more like heroes and gave a potential "bad guy" the chance to comply.

[MintyTheCat]

Sounds like Cowboys and Indians to me, Ed. I can safely say that I have rounded every single corner in Europe and never once needed to have a gun ready.

Three cheers for cultural differences!

[Ed Oscuro]

I can safely say that I have rounded every single corner in Europe and never once needed to have a gun ready.

In truth, I've walked around some statistically dangerous places myself, and I didn't need a gun ready either. What are the odds?!

(Incidentally, one of the most dangerous "feeling" places in my memory was a particular street in Paris with some young fellows about after dark - but this was still deep in the capital.)

[Xyga]

There are no 100% safe places, although most of Europe might feel overall safer in regards of purely life-threatening situations
(shootings in particular are almost essentially a thing of organized crime that don't involve the 'public', save for terrorist acts)
, dangerous spots are found even in the most unexpected locations, my biggest scare happened in Luxemburg, filthy rich highest GDP per capita in the EU...but also a well known tax haven where shady people from all around the world do shady things and can't take a joke.
Otherwise you could get beaten up, robbed, raped whatever pretty much anywhere.

Outside of Europe I've only been to China (and Russia so briefly it's not even worth mentioning) and sadly only around Beijing, Tianjin and Shanghai, but it's definitely the country where I felt the safest wherever I walked, no matter the hour.
Guess it's a matter of mentalities and of everybody knowing what getting caught doing shit means.
But I've heard scary stories, from places I haven't been to that is, and where foreigners don't exactly walk to even by mistake anyway.

Still...when looking for information about crime rates you end up with a mess of wtf figures, because each country has its own selective criteria and politics-influenced reports.

What are the odds?!

^
this.
What are the odds...of what happening ? I would rather ask, because those shootings in the US are very visible and shocking it's still only the focus on one particular type of crime report in one particular country.
What does it tell about 'everything crime' ? I've read a report in which Norway was ranked among the higher risk of being killed in Europe, just because of th Breivik case.

[MintyTheCat]

What are the odds? Quite. Shootings are very low indeed - we just don't have the culture for it, Ed, largely speaking compared to the US which why you have the problems that you have.

It is this feeling that you are all at risk that in turn creates the problems that many of you have to face.

As a gun advocate, Ed, I can well imagine that you felt threatened around parts of Paris and I very much doubt you speak much French either which in turn may well add to your feeling of anxiety.

Still, at least you got out of the pen and sampled a different culture. Keep at it and tell your friends that we live over here without guns and we live better than you guys whilst we're at it in a safer environment.

Xyga, Frankfurt is similar: lots of shady characters and noticeably more crime.

[trap15]

you know that you don't have to be a demeaning prick every post, right?

[Xyga]

Xyga, Frankfurt is similar: lots of shady characters and noticeably more crime.

Because it reeks of money in every corner yeah, crime syndicates even own those fancy skycrapers right in the middle of the city lol.
But what I felt most threatened with the one time I visited Frankfurt was the local's accent when they speak english, and how quickly they seem offended when you ask them to repeat.

[MintyTheCat]

Xyga, Frankfurt is similar: lots of shady characters and noticeably more crime.

Because it reeks of money in every corner yeah, crime syndicates even own those fancy skycrapers right in the middle of the city lol.
But what I felt most threatened with the one time I visited Frankfurt was the local's accent when they speak english, and how quickly they seem offended when you ask them to repeat.

Dialects and accents vary a lot in Germany ranging from easy to understand to incomprehensible even for native speakers

Loads of white collar crime around there for sure but there is also a little more of the more direct crime there too. Still, it is not as bad as London.

Frankfurt is an oddity in that it really does not look like a German city at all.

As for English speakers over here it varies a lot again. Many of the younger kids sound american but the older people sound more German when they speak English.
The big myth is that people assume that every one here speaks perfect english but this is simply not true at all.

The best people I have ever met it terms of English proficiency as a second language were the Swedes but they too spend time in school learning German.

[neorichieb1971]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

This is a very interesting video. It reminds me of every time a school shooting happens and 1-100 kids die at the mercy of a madman with a firearm. The other 100 million innocent firearm owners in the USA are irrelevant.

[MintyTheCat]

Fucking hell, they give out free condoms over here....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34950261

Again, all rather 'Mad Max'.

[Skykid]

14 people dead. A man and a woman opened fire with assault rifles in... wait for it... a disability centre.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-03/r ... ng/6996510

[EmperorIng]

That is pretty terrible, tragic, and senseless. With two of the suspects dead, I can only hope the third, if he/she exists, is not far behind.

What has struck me as odd about the affair thus far is how hush-hush the media is about the identities of the shooters. We knew everything about the insane man who shot up the PP clinic earlier last month in two hours. Why haven't they described the people they caught? Or names? Some police stooge on the news said something about not wanting to cause an international incident, which makes things sound only more suspicious! One of the (dead) suspects being a woman, and the presence of armor and alleged explosives is very worrying.

[Strider77]

It's time... we need Robocop.

[BulletMagnet]

It's time... we need Robocop.

Waiting for Trump to announce him as his running mate.

[RealPlumpBox]

It's time... we need Robocop.

Waiting for Trump to announce him as his running mate.

Gets my vote!

[EmperorIng]

What has struck me as odd about the affair thus far is how hush-hush the media is about the identities of the shooters.

Oh, now I get it; it's because the shooters are Middle Eastern. Gee, I wonder why they'd want that to remain quiet. At least I can now start to reflect on how the media and the government will do all they can to spin the entire awful situation (e.g. calling it potentially "workplace violence") away from some very obvious conclusions (like why three people, with armor and rifles, would carry out "workplace violence").

[Eaglet]

Don't know much about the American perspective on gun control (except that it differs from state to state, like a lot of laws) but I find it weird that one of the most immediate reactions from the legislators in both EU and the states is to crack down on gun control.
When none of these shootings (terror related) have anything to do with how easy it is to get guns.
Terrorists and organized crime members will always find ways to procure weapons.

[Skykid]

Terrorists and organized crime members will always find ways to procure weapons.

It's not the terrorists and organised crime members that are the issue, it's the seemingly normal people who suddenly decide to flip out and put a bullet between the eyes of some random passers-by.

[DunlapDunlap]

Oh god, this news made me violently ill. What kind of monster opens fire on disabled children? Much less plans it out months in advance...

If I ruled the world, I would confiscate all guns, nukes, bombs etc and use them to wipe out all fundamentalist religious nuts and terrorists, then destroy the weapons once they no longer serve a purpose. Then we would live in peace.

[MintyTheCat]

Terrorists and organized crime members will always find ways to procure weapons.

It's not the terrorists and organised crime members that are the issue, it's the seemingly normal people who suddenly decide to flip out and put a bullet between the eyes of some random passers-by.

Exactly - you scary people.

Put the guns down.

[Eaglet]

Yeah I know, but you guys are missing my point.
Why are they calling for this now in response to shootings that were planned and orchestrated long in advance? It's fucking weird.

[MintyTheCat]

Yeah I know, but you guys are missing my point.
Why are they calling for this now in response to shootings that were planned and orchestrated long in advance? It's fucking weird.

Hardly missing the point here:

more guns equals more deaths.

[evil_ash_xero]

You are right, Minty.

I get very irritated, when a shooting happens here. It's very much like when there is a terrorist attack. Instead of talking about the attack, a large portion of people will start talking about how this harms the Muslim community.
Well, when a shooting happens in the U.S., a large portion of people start yakking about the "man" taking our guns away. You see it all the time. Like they are more focused on some of their toys being taken away, rather all the rampant shootings.
Oh well.

This is an interesting one. The shooters, I think, are Muslim. You know though..it's hard to get so upset, when we have WAY higher body counts, all the time, in this country, from other shootings.
I don't think people are going to be that fazed by it.

Now, maybe someone could make a racket about how the NRA makes it possible for people on terrorist watch lists to have guns. I doubt anyone will care though.

The amount of gun death, that would have to happen, for people to actually do ANYTHING, would have to be astronomical. And it's pretty bad now.

[Eaglet]

Naah, Minty that's way too simplistic. We have A LOT of hunters with hunting rifles here in Sweden with almost zero deaths attributed to those guns.
Reducing deaths is not about removing guns altogether but to control and thoroughly check the people obtaining them.
But again, that wasn't my point.
My point was how this was propagated in relation to attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with legally acquired arms. Failing to see what the agenda is.

[MintyTheCat]

Naah, Minty that's way too simplistic. We have A LOT of hunters with hunting rifles here in Sweden with almost zero deaths attributed to those guns.
Reducing deaths is not about removing guns altogether but to control and thoroughly check the people obtaining them.
But again, that wasn't my point.
My point was how this was propagated in relation to attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with legally acquired arms. Failing to see what the agenda is.

Well, the US does require citizens to acquire guns legally and we can see what the results have been.

No offence, but Sweden has a fraction of the US' population, it has universal welfare and indeed less crime.
I haven't met many poor Swedes yet and most appear to be middle-class - that is some what different to the US.

That goes some way to attribute the US' situation.

But, less guns still means less accidents, more deaths and yes, less hunters with guns.

In the US' case it is indeed a cultural issue but it boils down to guns when you want them. Take away the guns and you are beginning to solve that problem. Again, work on the culture and remove the object then the rest will hopefully follow.

[Damocles]

Now, maybe someone could make a racket about how the NRA makes it possible for people on terrorist watch lists to have guns. I doubt anyone will care though.

The issue relates to the Fifth Amendment, in that someone who has not been convicted of a crime can have constitutional protections taken from them. Consider the low threshold to get on the list, the secrecy surrounding who is actually on it, and the absurdly difficult path to getting off of it.

[EmperorIng]

A Pakistani-American Muslim who had earlier this year traveled to Saudi Arabia, grew more "reserved" and devout ("growing a beard"), and brought back a wife (who also carried out the attacks) - but authorities are having a hard time piecing together a motive. If Muslim communities are already criticizing a case of Islamic violence, why is the national press tip-toeing around it? We already know that media corporations do not act in our best interests - so it will be enlightening if we watch how the political narrative is woven around this attack versus the PP clinic attack.

Now, maybe someone could make a racket about how the NRA makes it possible for people on terrorist watch lists to have guns. I doubt anyone will care though.

At least according to 2013 tax filings, gun control lobbyists outspent the NRA lobbyists by over $10 million dollars, and the NRA expressly forbids corporations from funding its lobbying program.

It's also important to remember that California has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation, and that the firearms used were already illegal. In other words, to echo Minty, this is a place where guns were already "taken away." It is also important to remember that California shares a semi-porous border with a nation known for its aggressive, well-armed drug cartels and black market. There are a lot of factors here, but I think, similarly to the tragedy in Paris (or my own hometown), high gun control doesn't translate into safety.

[ZacharyB]

I think that trying to change the culture is very difficult or impossible, since all people build their entire personas off of their cultural upbringing. To take away that culture would be like trying to change the person at its core, a concept which everybody vehemently avoids. In the meantime, approximately 88 people die every day here in the US from gun violence. (This number comes from a New York Times article that was released as a companion to the report of the California shooting.)

In light of this stubborn nature, controlling the guns is what everyone's focusing on, because the other option, controlling the man, is so far-fetched. The dramatic irony lies in that gun owners, considering guns a part of their person, feel like the removal of guns would essentially be "controlling the man" anyway.

[MintyTheCat]

I think that trying to change the culture is very difficult or impossible, since all people build their entire personas off of their cultural upbringing. To take away that culture would be like trying to change the person at its core, a concept which everybody vehemently avoids. In the meantime, approximately 88 people die every day here in the US from gun violence. (This number comes from a New York Times article that was released as a companion to the report of the California shooting.)

In light of this stubborn nature, controlling the guns is what everyone's focusing on, because the other option, controlling the man, is so far-fetched. The dramatic irony lies in that gun owners, considering guns a part of their person, feel like the removal of guns would essentially be "controlling the man" anyway.

Exactly - takes the guns away from the majority.

That's some pretty involved complex to believe that a gun is part of the person's identity.
Makes little to no sense to arm the majority up.