Ultimate Frontloader NES ideas

[the_crayon_king]

I am trying to make about 10 RGB modified NES consoles. I am also trying to go way over the top with each of them and looking for ideas.

I have done about 10 or so basic RGB modified NES frontloaders. BTW using Tim Worthington's RGB boards.

So far what I typically do:

1. Change all wet caps.
2. Add power reg.
3. 8 pin din RGB scart out
4. S-video
5. I re-bend/boil the 40 pin adapters
6. Add a 5k resistor to the led switch and add a diff color LED.
7. Re-enable A/V out & harvest RF to make Left mono sound (for tv's that don't automatically make dual mono)
8. 3-way pallet switch.
9. 3.5mm audio jack /w pseudo stereo sound by using CPU pin 1 & 2
10. Lockout chip disabled.

So what I have in mind to add so far is:
1. Blinking Light Win (basically makes this like the toploader [no pushing down/no bent pins])
2. I want to have a double gang and a single gang 10k audio potentiometers to allow mixing the pseudo stereo and dual mono on the 3.5mm audio out.
3. Expansion audio for multicarts and fami converter (I know so far to use the audio mixing point above J5 but not sure what resistance needs to be for what ATM)
4. May do component out by adding the appropriate board. I'm not sure if people would want it
5. Anything else worth adding/replacing ?

The reason for the Blinking Light Win would be to hopefully allow for these to last a long time without needing repair.
I can paint a little but it seems most people are more interested in having stock colors.
I am also aware that there will be a HDMI NES board coming out. I will switch to that in the future if it turns out well enough.

[BuckoA51]

Add a proper region free mod that makes the console 50 and 60hz compatible, so PAL titles can run at the correct speed.

[kamiboy]

Yeah, I am pretty sure that would require a PAL PPU and CPU in addition to the NTSC pair already inside the NES, plus a contrived way to switch between the two. I'd say as far as mods go that one would require a wizard tier modder.

[Huggers]

I'd definitely be interested in buying one of these when finished as they are. Although a 50/60hz switch would make it an instant buy

[BuckoA51]

Yeah, I am pretty sure that would require a PAL PPU and CPU in addition to the NTSC pair already inside the NES, plus a contrived way to switch between the two. I'd say as far as mods go that one would require a wizard tier modder.

I don't think you need to be wizard-tier, OldSkoolConsoles has been offering such a mod for some time now.

"What you do is piggyback a pal ppu/cpu and crystal on an ntsc fronloader. You lift pin 40 of both pairs of ppu/cpu. Then you run the 5v for each ppu/cpu through a toggle switch. Then you just run the two crystal through a toggle as well. The pal/ntsc frontloader nes pcb's are identical except for the ppu/cpu and crystal. So you can understand how it works."

[the_crayon_king]

Interesting.
I actually have a PAL NES just sitting around collecting dust. I could harvest it to see if I can manage a region switchable console.

Importing PAL NES consoles to harvest sound expensive though IDK.

How would you even go about switching that many things ?
Could you stack the Crystal/PPUS/CPUS and then just toggle power to one and that specific one still work ?

Like cut ground to all of the those things then have a 3 way toggle switch to power one set or the other ?

Is the power input and issue as well ?

Edit you posted the answer while I was typing:

I don't think you need to be wizard-tier, OldSkoolConsoles has been offering such a mod for some time now.

I will totally try this sometime tomorrow. Just the PAL/NTSC switch thing to see if I can even do it.

"What you do is piggyback a pal ppu/cpu and crystal on an ntsc fronloader. You lift pin 40 of both pairs of ppu/cpu. Then you run the 5v for each ppu/cpu through a toggle switch. Then you just run the two crystal through a toggle as well. The pal/ntsc frontloader nes pcb's are identical except for the ppu/cpu and crystal. So you can understand how it works."

The crystal takes 5v as well right ? Can these all be tied together on the same SPDT On-On switch ?
I might be mixing my switch types up I think that would be the one I need.

[BuckoA51]

You're asking the wrong guy unfortunately, that's all the information I have (and since he's started selling again I hope I haven't given away any secrets I wasn't supposed to )

[Guspaz]

I'm not a fan of the Blinking Light Win. It's just not authentic anymore if you can't push down the cartridge, and at that point you might as well use a toploader.

[the_crayon_king]

You're asking the wrong guy unfortunately, that's all the information I have (and since he's started selling again I hope I haven't given away any secrets I wasn't supposed to )

Don't worry odds are I will completely jack it up on the region switch and give up on doing ever it (as I only have one to spare).

Also would a 50k pot on the expansion audio be ideal over the 47k ohm resistor mod or what ? Anyone know ?

I could either fade from stereo to mono [using 1 double gang potentiometer] or have them adjustable independently by using one or two [1 single & 1 double]potentiometers respectively.

Two knobs (potentiometers) would allow adjusting Stereo/Mono levels independently of one another. So you could have loud stereo and low mono or vice versa. Or loud mono loud stereo and pretty much everything in-between.
One knob would allow fading from stereo to mono gradually. It would look neater than two but would be less adjustable as you can only decrease one while increasing the other.

I am not sure which is preferable.

[leonk]

Which power regulator are you using?

I would caution you against this. Back in September, I e-mailed the following to Tim after discovering an issue in using power regulators with NESRGB installs:

"I wanted you to be aware of an issue I discovered with the NESRGB. Recently I started swapping the 7805 with one of those switching regulators you offer on your web site. And I noticed a problem on my Sony PVM monitor. When playing games with a lot of solid bright background (eg blue sky in super Mario bros) as the screen scrolls across the solid blue has faint lines at 45 degrees. They are super faint and sometimes I think my eyes are playing tricks on me. But they're there. Almost like noise. When using a 7805, they're not there."

Tim's replies:

"It's probably noise from the switching regulator. It oscillates at 500 KHz. ... You can probably fix it by placing a capacitor between the regulator output and ground. Something like a low ESR tantalum/electrolytic 200-500uF or X7R ceramic 10uF (only come as SMT)."

"The oscillator in the regulator is not synchronised with the one generating the video signal. The lines will be at an angle and probably move around a bit too. These little switching regulators operate at high frequency and have use small ceramic capacitors as the output filter. External capacitors may be required to reduce noise. It's detailed in the datasheet (page 11)."

Most people won't notice these "scrolling jail bars", but I've done many NESRGB installs and know what to look for and see them clearly. Don't replace the 7805 with anything but a 7805.

[CkRtech]

Don't replace the 7805 with anything but a 7805.

If it is only a matter of adding a filter capacitor for the OKI, isn't it still worth it?

I put one in my SNES and tossed the heatsink.

[the_crayon_king]

Which power regulator are you using?

I would caution you against this. Back in September, I e-mailed the following to Tim after discovering an issue in using power regulators with NESRGB installs:

"I wanted you to be aware of an issue I discovered with the NESRGB. Recently I started swapping the 7805 with one of those switching regulators you offer on your web site. And I noticed a problem on my Sony PVM monitor. When playing games with a lot of solid bright background (eg blue sky in super Mario bros) as the screen scrolls across the solid blue has faint lines at 45 degrees. They are super faint and sometimes I think my eyes are playing tricks on me. But they're there. Almost like noise. When using a 7805, they're not there."

Tim's replies:

"It's probably noise from the switching regulator. It oscillates at 500 KHz. ... You can probably fix it by placing a capacitor between the regulator output and ground. Something like a low ESR tantalum/electrolytic 200-500uF or X7R ceramic 10uF (only come as SMT)."

"The oscillator in the regulator is not synchronised with the one generating the video signal. The lines will be at an angle and probably move around a bit too. These little switching regulators operate at high frequency and have use small ceramic capacitors as the output filter. External capacitors may be required to reduce noise. It's detailed in the datasheet (page 11)."

Most people won't notice these "scrolling jail bars", but I've done many NESRGB installs and know what to look for and see them clearly. Don't replace the 7805 with anything but a 7805.

I piggyback onto the 7805 I don't replace it, so it uses both (right?).
This is the pic from his guide:


I have about 50 replacement 7805's I could just swap them and use only that regulator for power but I would think the added power from the RGB mod would be hard on them (of course I don't even know it's draw). Could I swap out his regulator for a 7805 so I would have two piggypacked 7805's sharing the load. I am not too electronically inclined atm so I am not too sure. I would just swap out his in the picture above with the same config.

Anyway I haven't noticed any visual artifacts however I am using a scart to hdmi converter to a LCD. I just got like mega close to my screen while playing super mario. I couldn't see anything. Maybe it's there and my brain just ignores it idk. I would rather err on the side of caution and reduce any chance of artifacts.


Also on another note I am trying to draw out the audio stuff I need and am at a loss. I am just getting in to reading diagrams and don't really know what is needed. I am researching a lot trying to figure out the optimum audio setup for this setup so far I have this:



I have a cold or something and do not have a lot of experience with this kind of stuff so please be forgiving if something I have wrote is blatantly wrong

Edit* The connections L/R audio should not be connected together directly.
Basically I need the expansion audio and mono audio mixed together then mixed both to left and right audio without getting crosstalk from the mono/exp audio being connected to both L and R.
I know something is missing in the picture thus the question mark.
I am also not sure if 50k should be used on the exp audio or if I should use a 10k pot with a resistor in series I am just going off the 47k currently suggested for the exp audio mod so you should be able really dial it in.
I am also not sure why 10k resistors are necessary or what they even do in the circuit. My guess is they act like diodes or something(once again no idea), but wouldn't each resistor used reduce audio levels substantially ? Shouldn't I am to keep the resistance lower so that you don't have to apply more gain on the TV end of things ? (ill be reading up on this page when I wake up [im on nights] http://sound.westhost.com/articles/audio-mixing.htm

I know I have tons of questions I will be researching on my own in addition to anything you guys might know.

[darcagn]

Install the NESRGB-IGR/NES-IO board.

Here's my post on it.

[leonk]

Don't replace the 7805 with anything but a 7805.

If it is only a matter of adding a filter capacitor for the OKI, isn't it still worth it?

I put one in my SNES and tossed the heatsink.

I tired. Didn't help.

Snes is different. I do it for all snes consoles. You don't have competing frequencies.

[leonk]

the_crayon_king: I keep the 7805 as is. You can always upgrade to 1.5A version but the NESRGB doesn't draw that much current.

Also, replacing all caps might not be a good idea. I've examined some of the caps on NES boards, and Nintendo used multiple suppliers, including high quality nichicon ones! I would trust a 25 year old nichi over brand new China special.

[yxkalle]

My RGB-modded AV Famicom has a switching regulator inside it and no lines as far as I can tell. It also runs much cooler now.

[leonk]

My RGB-modded AV Famicom has a switching regulator inside it and no lines as far as I can tell. It also runs much cooler now.

what switching regular are you using, and how are you using it? PVM or XRGB?

[yxkalle]

A cheap Chinese one based on LM2596, bought from ebay. I use a European TV with SCART. Maybe lines would be visible with better gear.

[leonk]

noise is visible using the OKI-78SR-5 5V Switching Regulator on a 20" Sony PVM with NESRGB (toloader, front loader, famicom AV.. tested them all). It is not visible if you use this regulator inside an SNES mini.

[vvs]

noise is visible using the OKI-78SR-5 5V Switching Regulator on a 20" Sony PVM with NESRGB (toloader, front loader, famicom AV.. tested them all). It is not visible if you use this regulator inside an SNES mini.

I have experienced this as well. I needed to take oscilloscope measurements on the SRGB-A chip on an SNES mini and 1-CHIP console, but the heat sink was in the way. I didn't want the regulator to overheat while I was running my tests, so I temporarily replaced the 7805 with the OKI-78SR-5 so I could have the console running with the heatsink removed. If you pay close attention to the screen you could see diagonal wavy distortion.

Once my measurements were complete I replaced the switching regulator back with the original so I didn't spend any time debugging that issue. I would be curious to know if someone resolved it though.

[CkRtech]

I run my SNES 1CHIP-02 with it, and I don't have a wavy line problem. I never did any measurements on it after installing the OKI - It looked good, so I moved along.

From the datasheet:

Recommended Output Filtering

The converter will achieve its rated output ripple and noise with no additional
external capacitor. However, the user may install more external output capaci-
tance to reduce the ripple even further or for improved dynamic response.
Again, use low-ESR ceramic (Murata GRM32 series) or polymer capacitors.
Initial values of 10 to 47 μF may be tried, either single or multiple capacitors in
parallel. Mount these close to the converter. Measure the output ripple under
your load conditions.

Use only as much capacitance as required to achieve your ripple and noise
objectives. Excessive capacitance can make step load recovery sluggish or
possibly introduce instability. Do not exceed the maximum rated output capaci-
tance listed in the specifi cations

Maybe I will look into this a bit more after I get some of my other projects out of the way.

[leonk]

I believe the video interference will only be visible on RGB CRT monitors (like PVM/BVM) as XRGB mini / other HD upscalers might hide the noise using filtering / digital buffering.

[Stainomo]

What I have always been wondering, wouldn't one of those 5V USB audio powersupplies be a good alternative for our dear old consoles? Aren't those supposed to provide ripple/noise free 5V?

[leonk]

What I have always been wondering, wouldn't one of those 5V USB audio powersupplies be a good alternative for our dear old consoles? Aren't those supposed to provide ripple/noise free 5V?

I believe all of them are switching, all will have ripple/noise. Charge circuit is not as sensitive as video circuit.

[vvs]

I believe the video interference will only be visible on RGB CRT monitors (like PVM/BVM) as XRGB mini / other HD upscalers might hide the noise using filtering / digital buffering.

I forgot to mention, I was testing this with the XRGB-mini connected to a Samsung LCD at the time I noticed the issue. So I don't believe it to be exclusive to CRTs.

[Spacemonkey]

I also encountered the problem with OKI regulators on a PVM, at first I thought I got a bad/noisy one because I had one that no matter what NES/Famicom system I put it into I got very noticeable noise in the picture. I stopped using them until I read the datasheet which I never got around to.

Seems like the noise is more visible with modern switching power supplies. Those same power supplies work fine on NES/Famicom consoles with a 7805 in them.

[vvs]

I run my SNES 1CHIP-02 with it, and I don't have a wavy line problem. I never did any measurements on it after installing the OKI - It looked good, so I moved along.

From the datasheet:

Recommended Output Filtering

The converter will achieve its rated output ripple and noise with no additional
external capacitor. However, the user may install more external output capaci-
tance to reduce the ripple even further or for improved dynamic response.
Again, use low-ESR ceramic (Murata GRM32 series) or polymer capacitors.
Initial values of 10 to 47 μF may be tried, either single or multiple capacitors in
parallel. Mount these close to the converter. Measure the output ripple under
your load conditions.

Use only as much capacitance as required to achieve your ripple and noise
objectives. Excessive capacitance can make step load recovery sluggish or
possibly introduce instability. Do not exceed the maximum rated output capaci-
tance listed in the specifi cations

Maybe I will look into this a bit more after I get some of my other projects out of the way.

lowbudget's Super8 makes use of that part as well if you want to study his circuit or reach out to him. I don't own one and have not seen the video it outputs, but presumably it was designed with that part in mind.

http://www.lowbudgetify.com/uploads/3/5 ... 7_orig.jpg

And borti's NES-IO makes use of a similar switching regulator http://www.recom-power.com/pdf/Innoline ... -1.5_L.pdf

https://github.com/borti4938/NESRGB-IGR ... eitung.jpg

I may spend some time investigating this too when I get a chance.

[mvsfan]

ive basically come up with the conclusion that i need to include an original power supply, or a good, old linear aftermarket one with every console i sell because of video issues with cheaply made aftermarket switching power supplies.

[the_crayon_king]

the_crayon_king: I keep the 7805 as is. You can always upgrade to 1.5A version but the NESRGB doesn't draw that much current.

Also, replacing all caps might not be a good idea. I've examined some of the caps on NES boards, and Nintendo used multiple suppliers, including high quality nichicon ones! I would trust a 25 year old nichi over brand new China special.

So yea heard you loud and clear so I bought about 400 dollars worth of nichicon caps (rated at 5000hrs or more). It works out to less than 4 dollars per console [100 pcs].
I know the ones on the motherboard are usually rubycon, not sure about the rest I dont pay that much attention.

So here is a question why does he even include the power regulator in the RGB kit ?

[yxkalle]

So here is a question why does he even include the power regulator in the RGB kit ?

My guess is that he's trying to even out the heat generated by linear regulation to two points instead of one. 1.5A and 1A regulators generates as much heat at the same load, within specification of course (I think?).