HDMI transcoder/range converter

[Joelepain]

Hi,

I wanted to know if some sort of HDMI to HDMI tanscorder (rgb to yuv) or range converter (rgb limited to rgb full range) exists ? Preferably with minimum lag, and not too expensive.
I thing some HDFury models can do this, but it's the high end models only that cost as much as a new monitor :/

My problem is that I play on a PC monitor (ASUS pa238q) which expects RGB full range (and doesn't have any configuration to switch it to rgb limited range) and i'm despaired to see Nintendo implementing a full range option on the WiiU. A transcoder could do the trick because my monitor accepts YCbCr and displays it with the good dark and bright levels.

[Fudoh]

I can't think of any cheap HDMI to HDMI solution, but if you use component from your WiiU instead, route that into a cheap component to HDMI converter ($25) you should get HDMI with YCbCr colorspace instead instead of limited range RGB.

[Guspaz]

You should be able to manually do the limited range to full range conversion on your display (or at least correct for it to a degree) by lowering the RGB offset and increasing the RGB gain. They can be found by setting the mode to "User Mode" in the Splendid menu, and then going into the advanced settings in the Color menu.

[Joelepain]

I can't think of any cheap HDMI to HDMI solution, but if you use component from your WiiU instead, route that into a cheap component to HDMI converter ($25) you should get HDMI with YCbCr colorspace instead instead of limited range RGB.

The problem is I'm using an AV Receiver to get multichannel audio from the HDMI, and you can't use both hdmi and component at the same time on the WiiU.
I tried to use my XRGB mini once, and change the brigthness/black/contrast setting to achieve what I want, but the colorspace and range management of the mini is a mess...

[bobrocks95]

The problem is I'm using an AV Receiver to get multichannel audio from the HDMI, and you can't use both hdmi and component at the same time on the WiiU.
I tried to use my XRGB mini once, and change the brigthness/black/contrast setting to achieve what I want, but the colorspace and range management of the mini is a mess...

I'm 99% sure I've used HDMI and analog audio from the Wii U at the same time. There's even a menu option that asks if you want analog audio, digital audio, or both as I recall.

Or you could add an HDMI audio extractor to the chain as well. You'd lose surround sound with either approach of course.

[Hoagtech]

I can't think of any cheap HDMI to HDMI solution, but if you use component from your WiiU instead, route that into a cheap component to HDMI converter ($25) you should get HDMI with YCbCr colorspace instead instead of limited range RGB.

The problem is I'm using an AV Receiver to get multichannel audio from the HDMI, and you can't use both hdmi and component at the same time on the WiiU.
I tried to use my XRGB mini once, and change the brigthness/black/contrast setting to achieve what I want, but the colorspace and range management of the mini is a mess...

Oh yeah you can you just hook up the composite rca jacks as well as the HDMI And in your settings choose multi audio out.

I do the same with my PS3 and ps4 before I bought a digi optical cord just for my PS4.

[Joelepain]

Hum yes...but no...
I don't want to loose multichannel audio so all these are not good options for me.

Then if you choose analog video in the WiiU menu, hdmi output is entirely disabled (video and audio, so you can only have stereo audio through analog)
All you can do is having audio on both hdmi and analog when hdmi video is set.

[BazookaBen]

Hum yes...but no...
I don't want to loose multichannel audio so all these are not good options for me.

Then if you choose analog video in the WiiU menu, hdmi output is entirely disabled (video and audio, so you can only have stereo audio through analog)
All you can do is having audio on both hdmi and analog when hdmi video is set.

Yeah, this really bugs me. And since Nintendo is already winding down Wii U support, it's unlikely to ever be fixed.

But on the other hand, the number of people that want analog video with 5.1 audio is definitely a fraction of 1%. So I've come to terms with the fact that I'll have to settle for compensating on the limited RGB with either a newer HD Fury or some other method so I can use the Wii U with my CRT and surround system.

Unless Nintendo finally gets their shit together and adds a Full Range option. That would also fixed the problem, and is a little more likely than them suddenly adding the ability to run HDMI audio with analog video.

[Joelepain]

I don't expect them (Nintendo or anyone else) to add the ability to have hdmi audio with analog video either because...I think that's quite stupid. If you have the hardware that supports hdmi audio, it necessarily supports hdmi video. But as you say, at least they could "gets their shit together and adds a Full Range option".

The only case where "hdmi audio only" could be useful I think, it's on PC, where you could have your monitor driven by an adaptative sync display port on one side, and your audio going to your receiver through hdmi on the other side. But nVidia themselves took three years to add a RGB limited/full range switch in their control pannel so I don't expect much from them either...

[BazookaBen]

I don't expect them (Nintendo or anyone else) to add the ability to have hdmi audio with analog video either because...I think that's quite stupid. If you have the hardware that supports hdmi audio, it necessarily supports hdmi video..

Not true. What if you're using a CRT with a 5.1 system? That's exactly the setup I'm rocking. PC CRT, 5.1 sound system. Component currently gives full range colorspace, so why wouldn't I want to use that?

[bobrocks95]

Not true. What if you're using a CRT with a 5.1 system? That's exactly the setup I'm rocking. PC CRT, 5.1 sound system. Component currently gives full range colorspace, so why wouldn't I want to use that?

I would imagine very few people beyond these niche forums have such a setup. And a good number of those people probably have a second display for HDMI consoles.
It's maybe not stupid but it's never going to be added as a feature. I wouldn't be surprised if some odd line in the HDMI licensing agreement doesn't even allow such mixing.

[BazookaBen]

I would imagine very few people beyond these niche forums have such a setup. And a good number of those people probably have a second display for HDMI consoles.
It's maybe not stupid but it's never going to be added as a feature. I wouldn't be surprised if some odd line in the HDMI licensing agreement doesn't even allow such mixing.

Of course, and I said as much a couple posts back. PS3 is able to do this though.

Of course, in my experience, PS3's component output isn't as good as it's HDMI, so I transcode the HDMI with an HD Fury instead of using component. Wii U, on the other hand, theoretically has better picture over component, since it is full range.

[bobrocks95]

Wii U, on the other hand, theoretically has better picture over component, since it is full range.

An interesting predicament, I hadn't pieced that together. I thought YPbPr was an inherently limited range, or is that just YCbCr?

[Fudoh]

In the analogue domain there's no such thing as limited or full range. "Digital YUV" always uses limited range though - so at least there's no chance of any mismatch.

[Joelepain]

I just had an idea for my problem :
Apparently I'm in the first batch of 50 pre-orders for marqs' digitizer/scandoubler and apparently it is able to digitize analog 1080p signal.
If I run my WiiU through hdmi to my av-receiver, I get multichannel audio. Than I connect the hdmi output of the receiver to a hdmi to vga/component converter, and then I connect the anolog output of the converter to marqs' digitizer, and then the digitizer to the display. Do you think that could work ?
If yes, I just have to find a good affordable hdmi to vga/component converter that handle well the different colorspaces of hdmi.

[ZellSF]

I just had an idea for my problem :
Apparently I'm in the first batch of 50 pre-orders for marqs' digitizer/scandoubler and apparently it is able to digitize analog 1080p signal.
If I run my WiiU through hdmi to my av-receiver, I get multichannel audio. Than I connect the hdmi output of the receiver to a hdmi to vga/component converter, and then I connect the anolog output of the converter to marqs' digitizer, and then the digitizer to the display. Do you think that could work ?
If yes, I just have to find a good affordable hdmi to vga/component converter that handle well the different colorspaces of hdmi.

That's a pretty expensive chain to accomendate a pretty cheap monitor.

[Stainomo]

If you are willing to spend that much money you might as well buy a DVDO Edge. I have this and you can select input range, output range, should take care of your range issues.

[Joelepain]

The thing is I don't buy Marqs' digitizer to achieve this, but for other purpose.
I thought that once I will have it, maybe the cheapest solution to solve my range problem is to add an hdmi to vga converter in the chain...

If I buy an hdmi to vga converter, I could connect it directly into the vga input of my monitor too.

[Joelepain]

Hum...
From this post http://dme.ghost2.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25052
It seems like even the hdfury apply the limited->full range conversion only when YCbCr is fed on the hdmi input, and do nothing when RGB is fed because it assumes RGB is always full range.

I am really beginning to believe that "RGB limited" through hdmi never existed in the first place, but someone messed up at some point (I don't know if it's TV manufacturers or dvd/blu ray players) and now everybody is confused with the most stupid problem of video transmission history...

[Joelepain]

If you are willing to spend that much money you might as well buy a DVDO Edge. I have this and you can select input range, output range, should take care of your range issues.

How much is a DVDO Edge nowadays ?
Because I think it's the only kind of solution left for my problem...

[bobrocks95]

It's a pretty stupid problem, but full range used to be reserved for PC monitors and limited range for TVs. Now most can do both with a setting.

[Joelepain]

Hi,

I may be able to buy an iScan VP50 (i think it's a Pro) for an "affordable" price (200 CAD, ~150 USD)
Will I be able to achieve what I want with a VP50 ? (rgb limited -> rgb full range conversion, or rgb limited -> YCbCr convertion) ? From the user manual i think so, but I ask you people who have own one, just to be sure.
Does the iScan add a lot of delay if you just do a color space conversion (1080p to 1080p, so no deinterlacing and no scaling) ?

Is it worth it ? (I know it's way overkill for what I want to do, but maybe I could find another utility. My question is more in the sence : Is a VP50 still worth it nowadays for 150 dollars ?)

[Fudoh]

Will I be able to achieve what I want with a VP50 ? (rgb limited -> rgb full range conversion, or rgb limited -> YCbCr convertion) ?

yes.

Does the iScan add a lot of delay if you just do a color space conversion (1080p to 1080p, so no deinterlacing and no scaling) ?

6ms.

Is it worth it ?

I'm still not sure why you cannot simply ajust the black and white level on your display. I haven't encountered a case yet, where readjusting those was a problem. Range mismatch problems are common.

Is a VP50 still worth it nowadays for 150 dollars ?)

absolutely.

[Joelepain]

I'm still not sure why you cannot simply ajust the black and white level on your display. I haven't encountered a case yet, where readjusting those was a problem. Range mismatch problems are common.

I tried but that changes nothing.
If I change brightness or contrast settings, I get a darker picture, but the grey (which should be display as black) just stays gray, it's just a darker grey...
If I change gamma, or the rgb offset and gain, I can't achieve what I want, and the picture looks like sh*t...

[Joelepain]

So I buy the unit today and it's an iScan VP50pro with remote in very good shape (appart from a little scratch, nothing serious). Only problem is the person didn't have the power supply.
So do I need a special power supply for this (the 7A requierement seems a lot ! but the unit is a beast xD ) or a generic PSU is enough ?

I have another question : the person who sold me this also had a HDFury3 which I bought too. But no power supply either. In the HDFury3 user guide it says it needs a power connector with the positive on the outer ring, and the negative on the inner pin (which is the "unconventionnal way" for me). Is it right or did they make a mistake inside their own manual ?

[BazookaBen]

I think the HD Fury 3 uses mini-USB for power. The older HD Fury's used barrel connectors and maybe they accidentally copy/pasted that to the manual.

[Joelepain]

Mine doesn't have a mini-usb port but a regular dc connector (a quite small one). Maybe there are different models of the HDFury 3.

[BazookaBen]

Well with my original model HD Fury I had to buy a USB>barrel cable then stripped and swapped the two wires to get the correct polarity. You may need to do the same thing.

You can always talk to the guys at their forum though, they're pretty active with their support on there:

http://dme.ghost2.net/forum/

[Joelepain]

So I finally received a power supply for the vp50pro (i bought this item on ebay) It seems to do the job.
Is it normal that the power supply stays quite hot even when the vp50 is in stanby mode ?

I tried the color range conversion and it's working just like I wanted. I force the output to RGB 4:4:4 PC level (their denomination for the 0-255 full range) and let the input to auto color space detection, video level (their denomination for the 16-235 limited range) and the picture is really great. Even the convertion from YCbCr (WiiU in Wii mode) is working great.

There is just a little subtlety: you can only change the input range if the output range is set to Full. If the output range is set to limited, the input range is forced to limited.
So that means you can only "expand" (16-235 -> 0-255) the range but you can't "compress" (0-255 -> 16-235) it.
I'm not concerned by this but I write it down in the case someone passes by and need some infos...

[Fudoh]

So I finally received a power supply for the vp50pro (i bought this item on ebay) It seems to do the job.
Is it normal that the power supply stays quite hot even when the vp50 is in stanby mode ?

The 50Pro draws more power than the VP50, that's why the original PSU was rated with 7A. You should keep an eye on your replacement. Also the 50Pro draws nearly full power, even in standby. So you might want to pull the plug when you're not using it.

There is just a little subtlety: you can only change the input range if the output range is set to Full. If the output range is set to limited, the input range is forced to limited.

it should be possible. Maybe it's related to the order of your settings or YCbCr is required on the output. I remember that I definitely used full range RGB sources while using limited range YCbCr output.