How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat?

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Bonus!
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How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat?

Post by Bonus! »

In some other thread a shmuplations interview was linked to, in which one of the G.Rev guys says the following:
So it was like, the two of us made Under Defeat… how far can we take our skills? That spirit of adventure and experimenting was a fundamental part of it.
Let that sink in! Two guys made Under Defeat. This made think of t he distinction between Doujins and commercial developers. On the one hand you have doujin game creators like Zun and Astroport, and the perception is that they are small teams. On the other hand, think of the remaining "commercial" developers: G.Rev (2 guys), Qute (2 or 3 guys), Triangle Service (2 guys). So, you have similar team sizes, possibly even smaller than some doujin circles.

Thus, I wonder how the commercial shmup dev business model really works. I can't quite see how releasing a game every few years generates enough cash to make this approach sustainable. Or is it that the commercial developers like Qute and G.Rev are just like doujin circles with a different coat of paint? Somewhere I read that G.Rev does uncredited outsourced programming work for other developers. Is this how this works? Are outlets like G.Rev essentially hobbyist groups that stay afloat by doing "grunt work" (software engineering term) for other developers, as contractors, and slowly but steadily work on their own projects when there is some downtime, while doujin circles, with the exception of ZUN, have regular day jobs, i.e. salaried, and work on shmups in their spare time.

This is all partly conjecture. I'm just curious how this works. Does anyone have any insights?
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Doctor Butler
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Doctor Butler »

[quote="Bonus!"]Somewhere I read that G.Rev does uncredited outsourced programming work for other developers./quote]

I never heard of that before, but it seems highly likely.
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ATTRACTS
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by ATTRACTS »

Seems like a mixture of everything you said. They did work previously on Ikaruga and Gradius V, then people from the Ikaruga team helped GRev with Strania. GRev later went on to team up with another team to make Mamorukun Curse. Sounds like they also help out others under the hood, then utilize those relationships to get out what they want to do while.

This from a siliconera interview:
"Actually, we have developed quite a few titles outside of the shooting genre. Most of those projects were contracted work, so the G.rev name was not featured on those games."


Read more at http://www.siliconera.com/2013/08/22/sh ... C6mmV7x.99
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by GSK »

Even bigger companies like Cave and M2 do far more contract/non-gaming projects than original or high-profile games, that's just the nature of the business. A lot of it is planning or backend maintenance for mobile titles you've never heard of and won't ever care about but some of it is really off the wall... I think Qute does biometric software or something.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by vasilvv »

Well, the thing here is, most of the teams involved in making STGs are relatively small. You've noticed that one person can make a very good game, so the improvement from involving every new person is dramatic. Ikaruga was originally made by the team of what, four people? And CAVE is considered to be the AAA of shoot 'em up development, even though the teams there are usually at most 10 people (plus 10 people contracted for VA, music, etc).

I think the question is here less of "how can a two-man team make the game" and more of "how do companies like CAVE manage to stay afloat".
Spoiler
If you consider how well the companies like Raizing, Psikyo and Irem are doing, the answer appears to be "they don't", and CAVE is an exception that is powered by either doing uncredited outsourced work (think TOSE), or by the magical power of unicorns. And I kind of suspect it's not the latter.
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Squire Grooktook
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Squire Grooktook »

^^^Yeah

The problem with a large team working full time, is that you have to pay them yearly enough so that they won't starve to death before the game ships...

...for a 30 minute game niche genre that nobody will buy anyway.

Probably a lot easier with 2-3 people doing things on their freetime then expecting full time work from a full team whilst expecting them to somehow feed their families from measly shmup credit money.
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Sasupoika
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Sasupoika »

I figure the small ones rely on other sources of income (job, grant... ). It's such niche genre that you won't be getting truckload of dosh for shipping - if any. They are to develop, engine-wise though.

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MintyTheCat
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by MintyTheCat »

Firstly, having out sourced, independents has pretty much been in japanese videogame development since the start if you look back with many of the developers being free lancers with resources and people strung together for projects.

If you look back to the 8-bit to 16-bit to the 32-bit Shmups the size of teams was pretty small.

How many do you really need on a Shmup project? For me I feel that the amount of assets required is fairly small. If each of the team members is multi skilled you have some overlap ever further. It most certainly was normal for even the musicians in the old days to be coders too and often wrote the sound software.

On the Software Engineering side of things:

Only the big, often publicly funded behemoths of multi-nationals have massive, completely wasteful, large teams these days. I have worked in and around such companies and I can tell you that they are highly inefficient :D

You are substantially better off with a decent but small team that can make decisions quickly than some massive hierarchy every time. Even IBM and Siemens have begun to notice that big teams do not scale well. By all means by in the skills that you do not have but it makes a lot of good sense to have a decent team and just buy in when you need it than to have oodles of wasters literally hanging around doing nothing and getting paid top dollar :D

I suppose you would need these skills for a Shmup project:

1. Tool Developer
2. Engineer: game development
3. Level Designer
4. Conceptual Artist
5. Pixel Artist
6. Engineer: sound engine development
7. Musician
8. Engineer: hardware developer - may need or employed as a consultant between a number of teams

Then you need some testers for the game engine itself and then the game play.
You can hire in testers easily.

You may need a number of personnel for each category but the basic structure will not be too different from what I put above.

If you factor in multi skilled developers then that number may very well be fairly small.

Now contrast that to what they do on titles for modern platforms :D
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Xyga
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Xyga »

vasilvv wrote:Well, the thing here is, most of the teams involved in making STGs are relatively small. You've noticed that one person can make a very good game, so the improvement from involving every new person is dramatic. Ikaruga was originally made by the team of what, four people? And CAVE is considered to be the AAA of shoot 'em up development, even though the teams there are usually at most 10 people (plus 10 people contracted for VA, music, etc).

I think the question is here less of "how can a two-man team make the game" and more of "how do companies like CAVE manage to stay afloat".
Spoiler
If you consider how well the companies like Raizing, Psikyo and Irem are doing, the answer appears to be "they don't", and CAVE is an exception that is powered by either doing uncredited outsourced work (think TOSE), or by the magical power of unicorns. And I kind of suspect it's not the latter.
"are" ? "is" ?
Excuse me but why are you speaking like those companies still exist as shmups makers in our present ? Or did I miss something you said ?

I agree Cave still exists as a company and brand name making cheap toys and shitty mobile apps, but the shmups dev team who made the 'legend' are gone. G-O-N-E.
We've only seen a couple pseudo-shmups for Japanese smartphones and a painfully birthed Steam port since they've disbanded (some time after porting SDOJ to the 360 IIRC).
If in the coming years they actually manage to release a genuine new shmup at least half the quality of what the brand used to be famous for, then I'll consider them an active shmups dev again.

Also same thing regarding G.Rev... are they actually still doing shmups ? Seriously, a company or indie that won't release at least one title every year or two (three at worst), can't be considered active/alive.
And no, one downloadable game ported to some marketplace every five years doesn't count as 'active'.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Stevens »

Xyga wrote:
Also same thing regarding G.Rev... are they actually still doing shmups ?
I sure hope so. I would kill for them to do another helicopter game in the same vein as Under Defeat, but with a more modern setting like Zero Gunner 2. Minus the transforming bosses.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by GSK »

Xyga wrote:I agree Cave still exists as a company and brand name making cheap toys and shitty mobile apps, but the shmups dev team who made the 'legend' are gone. G-O-N-E.
People keep saying this but a lot of their key STG personnel are still with the company: IKD's still there, YGW's still there, Ichimura's still there (IKD's right-hand man, did Dangun Feveron and played a big role in every IKD game from DDP onwards), Wakabayashi's still there (character/enemy designer starting with DDP), etc.

I'm not saying they're destined to make another authentic STG, necessarily, but they're clearly itching for an opportunity to resume STG development and I think the notion that their team has been scattered to the winds needs to be put to rest.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Xyga »

That's good to hear !

I'm really curious to learn what kind of non-STG jobs they've been chained to.
Maybe they're held hostages, locked in the company's basement coding eroge for cup ramen ? :|
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by GSK »

Most of them have been working on Mahou Otome, their mobile STG that came out earlier this year. I haven't played it and don't really care to but I can tell at a glance that it's a lot better than Donpaccin, and plenty of hardcore STG people seem to like it well enough. It's the first mobile STG that IKD has been directly involved with, I believe.

As for G.rev, their last STG was Kokuga for 3DS a few years ago (2012?), and they also worked on the recent Game Center CX game which includes a few old-school STGs.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by qmish »

"are" ? "is" ?
Excuse me but why are you speaking like those companies still exist as shmups makers in our present ? Or did I miss something you said ?
Read more careful:
If you consider how well the companies like Raizing, Psikyo and Irem are doing, the answer appears to be "they don't"
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Despatche
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Despatche »

Yeah, um, these developers don't actually stay afloat at all. Does anyone remember the Triangle Service plea for help? Their entire existence is a giant gamble, designed to be unsustainable, and done purely because they want to make and sell the games they used to make and sell without being restricted to Comiket. Steam is very slowly changing that, but it's going to be a long process.

And yeah, it's become clear that CAVE is actually still there, and the people who moved to M2 aren't the big names responsible for most of the games.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by Skykid »

Despatche wrote: And yeah, it's become clear that CAVE is actually still there, and the people who moved to M2 aren't the big names responsible for most of the games.
How do we know that and logically why would M2 seek to poach employees who were of lesser value? I'm pretty sure they weren't out to throw money at the runt of the litter, indicating they must have landed a few good 'uns.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by GSK »

Skykid wrote:
Despatche wrote: And yeah, it's become clear that CAVE is actually still there, and the people who moved to M2 aren't the big names responsible for most of the games.
How do we know that and logically why would M2 seek to poach employees who were of lesser value? I'm pretty sure they weren't out to throw money at the runt of the litter, indicating they must have landed a few good 'uns.
I don't think there was ever any implication that M2 poached anyone, just that a lot of people quit CAVE and subsequently ended up at M2 because it's a natural fit.

I'm not going to dispute that people left--I have no idea if they did or didn't, and it's not like we have names, so there's no way to check--but I think it's wrong to say CAVE is a spent force when so many big players are still there; they haven't been Treasure'd just yet.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by gray117 »

The same as any small developer. Most of the time it'll be a part time deal... but there's no rule - part time might end up be the majority of their time, it might just be weekends. Either way they'll likely be something else helping it to exist if they've been going more than a year.

It's a lot more feasible these days with just communication/documentation/middleware and even online communities being far more pro-active than it they ever used to be.

As far as I know Grev was indeed basically founded by 1 main guy with a partner, but they've hired in and out services from day one - making full use of their previous Taito connections and relationships with Treasure and Sega in particular... I don't quite have this straight time wise in my head (let alone the sources) but I believe g-rev funded itself helping out on Ikaruga and then Gradius V just to support their own games (i. border down and ii. under defeat).

It's a little simplistic to say 2 guys made Under Defeat; even if they did most of the work - more people made it possible. Same I think with ikaruga - basically 2 guys and then a music guy made most of the game (I *think*-someone correct me if wrong) - but it was made possible by more. ... It's a bit like saying minecraft was made by one guy - the full picture is a little more than that :) ...

...


There's relatively few shump centric full time developers, or even hobbyists: Staff will likely be more like freelancers who own a company that holds their self made games and backs up their other ventures. Most often these small band types will just want to make good games rather than necessarily games of just a single genre.

You might find an individual or duo who dedicates themselves to a task for a 6 months/year, or so, since that's where they are in life - after which they'll likely finish off something in their spare time after doing money work - or if they manage to make enough cash with a title release/early access/kickstarter/publisher that they can start doing it full time.

A lot of younger developers, even with a decent demo, will land themselves a job/connection that will help support themselves. Inevitably this cuts into their time; but slow developments are better than none. Some lucky developers will find supporting funding/relationships or work that relates to directly to their project in some manner, but some will just be working on something completely different.

Often key creatives start to become more like producers/directors if they pursue the business management/development side of their own company. This maybe exactly the reason some developers remain small and working on shmups - to do otherwise; to proceed in another manner, may simply dismantled the key parts / motivation for the developer to exist and work on shmups to begin with.

Sounds silly? But consider this, you like shmups and enjoyed making one on the side with a bit of help from a mate/contractor here and there: you did ok and now have bit of cash. Now presume you want to make another shmup, would you take a year or two off and make a shmup yourself (perhaps quitting your current job/family setup)? Spend that cash on staff/loan to help make a company to make another shmup? Or a different kind of game/company to make more money and eventually fund another shmup years from now... maybe... ? Or would you be better putting that cash into a mortgage, and just making another shmup when you felt like it?... It's going to be a rare thing for all those paths to align to the point that someone maintains a shmup developer on a full-time basis :)
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by KAI »

gray117 wrote:Same I think with ikaruga - basically 2 guys and then a music guy made most of the game
Iuchi composed the music himself.
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Re: How do those one or two man shmup developers stay afloat

Post by gray117 »

I stand corrected - looks like a core 3(+1) man team then on ikaruga after a bit of a google 1 x coder, 2 x art and music,
(plus an extra for sfx) - http://www.mobygames.com/game/gamecube/ikaruga/credits

Sorry google should really be my friend - hopeless memory :)
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