rajirugi or under defeat...

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:21 am

i don't have the money for both, or the time for that matter. i'd rather just get one and invest some serious time into it.

can't decide which one though... which one are you getting and why?

Diabollokus · Post by **Diabollokus** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:39 am

Although Accquisition of both is inevitable

Underdefeat hands down. Heres Why

Its G.Rev! they rock, Border Down is possibly my fave shmup next to silvergun, its got zero gunner 2 mechanics taken to the next level, weather effects, kick ass stages, war styled, nice visuals and the music reminds me of layer section/ darius gaiden in places. The 3D on 2D plane element is more to my liking than a cell shaded shmup.

Under defeat just seems more serious and pissed off than Milestones product.

Ste · Post by **Ste** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:53 am

If I had to pick one, I'd probably go with Under Defeat. Getting both, but with Radilgy it's as much down to curiosity as anything else. Still, you cna probably hang on, see people's impressions of Radilgy, then make you mind up?

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:07 am

Not having played either, this comes down to G-Rev versus the developers of Chaos Field. I haven't really acquired any trust in the later and will be waiting to hear other reviews before I take a chance on it. With Under Defeat though, the movies look amazing, and I feel like G-Rev is just an amazing shmup developer.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:36 am

Under Defeat has a better chance of being a good game. But it really takes no risks and offers (from what I gather) nothing new gameplay-wise. The scoring system looks as interesting as Raiden 3's. Blah. I might buy Rajirugi if any of these new releases because it looks a little different.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:43 am

CMoon wrote:Not having played either, this comes down to G-Rev versus the developers of Chaos Field.

Aye. I could have afforded to preordered Radilgy, but chances are it just won't be that good. Under Defeat and Ibara will keep me plenty busy anyways.

@ Rob - the thing about the bullets seems interesting, at least.

qatmix · Post by **qatmix** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:09 pm

I've managed to play both on a recient trip to Tokyo and I have to admit they are both quite different so Im getting both.

Radilgy is really good, very accesable but it soon becomes quite tricky

Under Defaeat looks amazing but there is very little depth to it.. Im not saying that its a bad thing, it just doesnt seem to have a complex scoreing pattern..

Although i only played a few games of both..

dark penguin · Post by **dark penguin** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:27 pm

Under Defeat for me. I'm gonna pre-order it when I get paid next.

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:01 pm

I would tell you that Under Defeat is likely be the better one.

But like a game or not is totally to your personal teast. Well seeing the 2nd hand price of Chaos Field and Border Down, I would say you better pick Under Defeat first, and if you found you don't like it, you could easily trade it in for a copy of Rajirugi later.

highlandcattle · Post by **highlandcattle** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Rajirugi seems like the better,innovative game to me.But I 'm holding out for another version since the DC port of chaos field was pretty basic

neoalphazero · Post by **neoalphazero** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:06 am

The next three shooters due out all look excellent:

Ibara- Cave quality, I'm there.

Under Defeat- G.Rev has been involved with some great shooters, the textures and effects are top notch, and even if it's not throwing huge bullet patterns around, it appears a very competent old school shooter. I'll happily take new and old.

Rajirugi- The gameplay looks far more polished than Chaos Field and despite plenty of critics, the graphics have a great style to them. I love the bullets and enemy designs in this game, it's been stated far too many times but the game does have a JSR quality to it. I wish the cast of characters was a bit more interesting but.... *-neo

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:58 am

easy, wait till you have money for both!

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:38 am

i'm still totally torn but i think i'm more leaning towards rob at the mo. rajirugi just looks more interesting and challenging i think with a hell of a lot of bullets flying around and and interesting scoring systems.

i suppose under defeat would be a good game to just try and 1cc but i'm not sure i'd get my money's worth from it. however the explosiions aloone look worth the entry price...

i'll think on.

MOSQUITO FIGHTER · Post by **MOSQUITO FIGHTER** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:15 am

I'm getting Under Defeat and rajirugi. But if I could only get one it would be under defeat. Mainly because I'm not good at exploiting scoring systems but I do an okay job of staying alive. Under Defeat sounds like a refreshing break from this score exploit learning process. And the purely superficial reason of having nice graphics. If you like complex score systems surely rajirugi would be the best choice. I'd bet the level design is still uneven like it was in chaos field. Ibara seems to be the best of the three.

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:24 am

CMoon wrote:Not having played either, this comes down to G-Rev versus the developers of Chaos Field.

This is the main factor for me as well. Both look pretty nice, but Under Defeat is preordered, and Radilgy will be had upon hearing positive reviews.

Under Defeat definately has an oldschool flavor that looks appealing, as well as some really nice graphics and an appealing presentation. Even without knowing the developers it'd probably appeal to me a little more. I have to hear more about the scoring though. Do you really get a multiplier based on how few lives you have left?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:28 am

Frogacuda wrote:Do you really get a multiplier based on how few lives you have left?

Using Border Down as a precedent, it's definitely possible...

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:23 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
Frogacuda wrote:Do you really get a multiplier based on how few lives you have left?
Using Border Down as a precedent, it's definitely possible...

It made sense within the confines of the border system though. I don't think it would here.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:39 am

Shooter evolution is all about not making sense.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:58 am

Frogacuda wrote:It made sense within the confines of the border system though. I don't think it would here.

Well, boil it down to its essence, it's just another case of risk versus reward...do you conserve lives and score less, or do you play "on the edge" of a game over to try to inflate your score? The same basic concept is part of what's behind Garegga's much-debated rank system, except there it's about long-term survival as well as score.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:48 am

Under Defeat, easily. But, I'm only judging by the screenshots and vids I've seen so far. It reminds me Zero Gunner 2, which I loved. And the graphics really seem to push the Dreamcast's hardware. The Rajirugi screenshots I've seen haven't impressed me much. It almost looks shell-shaded. Or maybe more of a cartoony look. It can be cool, I agree. Impressions will help once they're posted. But I'm just liking what I have seen from Under Defeat so far.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:19 am

Frogacuda wrote:Do you really get a multiplier based on how few lives you have left?

Yes you do. As somebody pointed out it's a risk/reward thing, but more than that it opens up some tactical possibilies. Flying your chopper straight into an enemy does an enormous amount of damage. I've seen players here use that technique to kill off boss no.1 in a matter of seconds, then get a nice time bonus + double stage clear (on the subsequent stages as well) AND the rank will suddenly be significantly lower.
Of course it's all the more annoying if you still manage to die then (which is what I always do). So better for the beginner to have at least 1 extra life in stock, I reckon.

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:21 am

damnit i think i'm going to see how much i have when i get paid and maybe just order both at the same time!

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:10 pm

The problem is, a game like chaos field is innovative to the point I don't want to play it. There is a difference a lack of innovation and dull game play. Realistically, Raiden 1 & 2 introduced virtually nothing not introduced by the toaplan games they were inspired by, but the gameplay was top-notch! Raiden 3 does has dull gameplay. It is simply a bland game that punishes you with countless surprise shots from the bottom of the screen.

Now I haven't played either of these new games yet, but Rajirugi strikes me as another game with TOO MUCH innovation, but if good reviews start pouring forth, you know I'll be there.

As far as Under Defeat, I feel this is an obvious choice (as is Ibara): We have a great developer doing a style of game I love. It of course could be blandly executed, but it looks like an absolute blast! I'm not going to be turned off because we're still dodging bullets and panick bombing.

Post by **system11** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:17 pm

Easy decision - helicopter shooters make me happy.

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:53 pm

Seven Force wrote:
Frogacuda wrote:Do you really get a multiplier based on how few lives you have left?
Yes you do. As somebody pointed out it's a risk/reward thing, but more than that it opens up some tactical possibilies. Flying your chopper straight into an enemy does an enormous amount of damage. I've seen players here use that technique to kill off boss no.1 in a matter of seconds, then get a nice time bonus + double stage clear (on the subsequent stages as well) AND the rank will suddenly be significantly lower.
Of course it's all the more annoying if you still manage to die then (which is what I always do). So better for the beginner to have at least 1 extra life in stock, I reckon.

So is the multiplier bonus rewarded to you at the end of the stage, with the potential to earn more at the end? That wouldn't bug me as much (same as it didn't bother me in Border Down). But basically encouraging players to die twice at the start of a level seems crummy.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:05 pm

Yeah, you get a multiplier at the end of a stage. You also get multipliers for % of enemies destroyed and in-game multipliers for enemies destroyed with the option.

The no-life bonus is tough and fascist, but then again the theme of the game is fascism, so I guess it makes sense.

More seriously though, suiciding is only something you should worry about if you're going for a high score, and requires you to already have a firm grasp of the game and the levels. If you're only just starting with the game trying to 0-life it will obviously be totally frustrating.

al138 · Post by **al138** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:06 pm

While I'm getting both, after playing Border Down I am really more excited for the release of Under Defeat. However, based on what I've read, I imagine that Rajirugi will have greater longevity in my play rotation. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I anticipate that Under Defeat is going to be one wild ride at the very beginning, between the graphics and the helicopter motif--for which I have been a sucker since Tiger Heli. Nevertheless, I really don't see enough in the level design or scoring mechanism to keep me coming back consistantly for months in the way that Ikaruga (scoring) and Gradius V (level design) did. While Rajirugi doesn't have as impressive a theme or graphics (albeit very stylistic), I think I will take to its scoring system a little better.

Oh well, time will tell!

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:21 pm

J-Manic wrote:Under Defeat [cut]...[/cut] And the graphics really seem to push the Dreamcast's hardware.

Personally I feel underwhelmed by the graphics of the game when compared to Border Down (and Ikaruga for that matter). Not feeling it's extraordinarily beautiful. I do like the graphics though (especially explosions), but to say I feel it's pushing DC's limit's... no.
It's preordered!

J-Manic wrote: The Rajirugi screenshots I've seen haven't impressed me much. It almost looks shell-shaded.

Well, they might "almost" look cell shaded just because the graphics are cell shaded!

I don't think the graphics will impress many people here. In fact I was quite critical myself for quite some time about the graphics.
However, having seen most video samples of the game many times now,
I have started to like the style (and more particularly it's "just being different") more.
Whether this will make for a good game remains to be seen, but in the end I am very curious about it and have preordered it too.

But to get on topic a bit more: if I had to chose, I'd chose Under Defeat!

Reason? Ever since I have had the pleasure of experiencing Border Down I have been wanting more from G.Rev, and this is it.

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:38 pm

Super Laydock wrote:
J-Manic wrote: The Rajirugi screenshots I've seen haven't impressed me much. It almost looks shell-shaded.
Well, they might "almost" look cell shaded just because the graphics are cell shaded!

Actually it's cel-shaded. Like an animation cel.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:00 pm

Frogacuda wrote:
Super Laydock wrote:
J-Manic wrote: The Rajirugi screenshots I've seen haven't impressed me much. It almost looks shell-shaded.
Well, they might "almost" look cell shaded just because the graphics are cell shaded!
Actually it's cel-shaded. Like an animation cel.

Looking back through some of my (english language) magazines I notice some articles using double "l". But a lot a articles use a single "l".

However, I'll take your word for it as english is not my native language and your argument sounds like it's a good one.