Cave & Capitalism

[Xyga]

What the fuck? Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?

No. You don't see the point between A and B I'm making and don't realize you went overboard in a destructive/counter-productive attitude.

[Squire Grooktook]

Honestly I'm not that big a fan of Cave. I greatly like a few of there games (Guwange, Dangun), like/respect a few more (DOJ, Ketsui, Galuda), and feel somewhat apathetic about the rest. They're not really my "style" of developer, even if I respect them greatly, so I don't feel a great deal of loyalty to them even though I wish them the best.

I also wouldn't encourage people to buy a game that they don't want or don't plan on playing for the sake of charity or whatever.

However, I do encourage people to spread the word about any and all shmup releases on Steam (obviously except kusoge garbage like the first eXceed game, Super Killer Hornet, etc.) . I also encourage them to be honest about any issues that those ports have. You can tell your friends that "LEGENDARY BULLET HELL CREATOR PORTED FIRST GAME TO STEAM" and can also mention that "...but it has a few day 1 glitches that are pretty terrible...they're working on a patch though!", the latter shouldn't be a deal breaker for anyone interested. Not like people don't wait a few monthes till Steam Sales for everything they buy these days anyway.

I also hope the best for Degica because as a publisher they've taken chances on these games and have picked some great ones. Outside of Mushi, their ports have been solid quality. Eschatos is barebones compared to the 360 version and got some shit for a split second of stutter that appears during 5 second cutscenes, not really a big deal in my eyes.

[Smraedis]

I'd like anything to make Darius Burst CS as good as possible

[Xyga]

I also wouldn't encourage people to buy a game that they don't want or don't plan on playing for the sake of charity or whatever.

On that particular point: how many members actually encouraged the most people to blindly buy the game whatever the case, or even to shut up even if the port is bad ?

Some people got fixated on that imaginary campaign, probably after a two~three members actually said something like that, and some other said something that could come to be misinterpreted into the same for someone who's not into details: like saying that it's good for our hobby to buy shmups released on Steam got translated into "buy anything Cave will release and dont' criticize".

And they've made it much worse than it is, taking only the worst of it, pushing the idea of an imaginary crowd of shmupfarm fairies willingly becoming the expandable fodder of some evil capitalistic plot.

It's a bit like all the horrendous Islam talks, if you're not for condemning the whole population over the planet and fucking vomit on them all, then you're immediately labelled as an ignorant fairy secretly supporting terrorism, and there's no room for discussing any alternative points and solutions, it's over period.

I really hate that attitude, it's people who like the perversion of actual critical thinking who make things escalate into full flame wars, who's manipulating who then ?

PS/ agree with the rest of your post otherwise no worries, I just wanted to frickin kill that particular myth because it's serving bad purposes, people should understand that going full hate on something right-off has negative and destructive consequences that aren't necessary, they don't have to do that in every fucking occurence. Damn peolple be kind to humanity, at least at the beginning of things/events, it pays off most of the time.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, that was more aimed at Skykid. I don't want to get dragged into "let's lie and give charity to Cave" just because I said I didn't find the prospect of Degica crashing and burning over this to be a pleasant one.

[Skykid]

Yeah, that was more aimed at Skykid.

I've already given up.

I didn't say anything about evil capitalistic plots, it's like the written word is broken or something.

[Squire Grooktook]

I didn't either. I agree with what you said, I just don't want to get lumped in with a certain point of view just because I felt the need to respond to nonsense earlier.

[Obscura]

Obscura I do wonder why you had to wade into this thread too, considering you don't like Mushi. I'd assume you were sharing in Skykid's schadenfreude but you don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

Because the cult mentality of "support shmup developers and publishers, even when they release sub-par products!" needs to die.

[Xyga]

@SkyKid if you think I'm reacting exclusively to your posts you're being too self-centered.

See for instance the post Obscura just made is the kind of thing coming out of nowhere and dropped here just to stir shit up I'm against.

Nobody thinks that Obscura, you're wrong, wrong arrange version, and wrong black label.

[Obscura]

@SkyKid if you think I'm reacting exclusively to your posts you're being too self-centered.

See for instance the post Obscura just made is the kind of thing coming out of nowhere and dropped here just to stir shit up I'm against.

Nobody thinks that Obscura, you're wrong, wrong arrange version, and wrong black label.

Yes, my post just came "out of nowhere" when a poster directly asked me a question. Right.

[Xyga]

Your point about people being okay with letting developpers release shit ports comes out of nowhere.
You're making this up completely, it's just a provocative statement.

[Obscura]

How does it come out of nowhere when people are saying "don't leave negative reviews guys, even if the port is shitty, because it might hurt senpai!"

[Xyga]

Yeah there are a few stupid people like that, don't make it sound like this is a 'mentality' like this was a widespread opinion inside the community.

[mastermx]

We A: All say nothing. Swallow it. Hope the next one will be better. When the port of SDOJ you were holding out for finally turns up, the input lag from the 360 port is present. Perhaps worse.

This is entirely possible, and justifies us voicing our concern regarding cave's foray into the PC market. Whether Cave continues to release their ports and whether their games are successful on said platform is their responsibility. I would love SDOJ to come to PC lag free. But if Cave can't adapt to a new environment then that is a problem that only they can fix. Your support means nothing, and your words carry no weight, lest the product itself is quality. Flowery words can only take you so far, because once other consumers see the product for what it is, then we lose our credibility.

With all this said, I do believe that mushi will be patched very fast. The latest patch fixed the fps problem for myself. But this is becoming a pattern, Until this week's recent update I experienced massive stutters during certain sections of Eschatos. This put me off the game immensely.

The thing is, they shouldn't have released it with such critical issues. It's very clear to me that this isn't "one person's weird computer", there's not really a good excuse for this. They could have pushed the release back, Degica could've said "this is really glitchy, we're not going to release it yet", anything. But nope, gotta shove it out and let the shmupsforum mongs gobble the shit down with a grin on their face and call anyone who doesn't do the same a heathen. By releasing it in this broken state, it sends a pretty clear "fuck you pay me" to CAVE's consumers, and makes it obvious they have no respect for them either.

This is very true.

What we want from cave is things crafted with love and passion for the genre. Not some get rich quick scheme. This whole "If this sells well then we might port other games, and if those sell well then we might create a new shmup". This sort of mentality is what leads to failure, it is the sort of mentality that places the responsibility of success on the consumer as opposed to the quality of the product and the marketing effort. I know that it is a business and that they must make money, but look at every hobby or artform you love, it was created out of passion.

Crimzon Clover is an example of what passion and love for the genre can create. On the opposite end of the spectrum when art and business mix, and passion is lost, then you have yearly releases of games like COD etc. It ceases to be about quality, and more about moving the buck.

[gray117]

Seems they're actively fixing it - shame they bungled it out of the gate, but this is not unusual with a small publisher. IMHO this could have done with an early access release, get some publicity, and then a second bump when they release once bug fixed.

Reviews are actually looking good at a glance - and yeah people who buy the game should feel free to vote/rate whichever way they want - you paid for it, you're entitled to your opinion.

If you want to champion a game just buy it near launch. As mentioned there's a refund system if you end up being burnt/dissatisfied.

If you're happy waiting then you can probably buy it in a sale - at least they've made it available.

There's no excuse for piracy - if you want this version on this format then pay the price. If you're not happy paying for a game at the price of a couple of McDonalds... man ... I don't know why you're reading the forum... The only drama should be whether or not the OP is the kind you want in the forum.

[Skykid]

@SkyKid if you think I'm reacting exclusively to your posts you're being too self-centered.

Jesus.

I made a point about impractical consumer attitudes toward businesses, then reframed it several times in even simpler terms for the benefit of those who didn't seem to grasp the angle. Some evidently have grasped it, like mastermx above, while you've called me self-centered, destructive, counter-productive, and related my comments to people not condemning Islamic terrorism and evil capitalistic plots.

In answer to your comment, I don't know if you are reacting exclusively to my posts, but you do seem to be reacting exclusively.

[Blinge]

Yeah there are a few stupid people like that

Lol like me? =]

I merely floated the idea that negative-focused reviews might have further reaching consequences than intended. This is a discussion after all, and some rational responses to my point have caused me to change my mind on that.

I don't appreciate being given the Obscura poison treatment and reduced into this:

"don't leave negative reviews guys, even if the port is shitty, because it might hurt senpai!"

[Icarus]

I merely floated the idea that negative-focused reviews might have further reaching consequences than intended. This is a discussion after all, and some rational responses to my point have caused me to change my mind on that.

While I'm not going to bang on about this any longer, I will reiterate the fact that, as intelligent consumers, we have the right to voice our opinions and concerns over the products we purchase, and that includes downvoting something if it does not meet certain standards. The mentality of blindly supporting something even if it is fundamentally broken is completely backwards, and says to the developers that we're willing to jump on the bandwagon and purchase whatever they throw out regardless of quality. Just look at the debacle surrounding the PC release of Batman: Arkham Knight for example - sure they recalled everything and offered refunds etc, but by that point the damage had been done. If they had done due diligence beforehand, the devs and distributor wouldn't be in that situation - and the same goes for Cave and Degica.

Sometimes I wonder when exactly it was that we gave up our ability to demand quality products done in a timely manner. It's not DRM, piracy, targeting casual gamers, in-app monetisation etc that's killing gaming, it's the culture of accepting day-zero patches for products that are clearly released in a state that isn't fit for purpose.

Which leads me to a small thought I've been having this afternoon: just how long exactly did it take to throw this port together? I get the feeling that none of the answers would be satisfactory though:
<6mths = incompetent, cash-grab
6 to 12 mths = rushed, badly planned, badly tested etc
>12mths = wtf r u doin

[Opus131]

^ Missing the point when it has be retariated numerous times is a form of sophistry. The issue is not customer loyalty or anything of the kind. That is a strawman argument.

[Xyga]

@SkyKid if you think I'm reacting exclusively to your posts you're being too self-centered.

Jesus.

I made a point about impractical consumer attitudes toward businesses, then reframed it several times in even simpler terms for the benefit of those who didn't seem to grasp the angle. Some evidently have grasped it, like mastermx above, while you've called me self-centered, destructive, counter-productive, and related my comments to people not condemning Islamic terrorism and evil capitalistic plots.

In answer to your comment, I don't know if you are reacting exclusively to my posts, but you do seem to be reacting exclusively.

Jesus.

So typical of you.
No, don't bother, good day Sir.

@Blinge: what, you ? No !

[HenAi]

Sometimes I wonder when exactly it was that we gave up our ability to demand quality products done in a timely manner. It's not DRM, piracy, targeting casual gamers, in-app monetisation etc that's killing gaming, it's the culture of accepting day-zero patches for products that are clearly released in a state that isn't fit for purpose.

Pretty sure the deciding factor was simply the ability to patch games post-release. Without that, what you release is what people get. There's no "they can fix this, things will be ok at some point in the future" and no "we can release this now and just patch it if shit happens". Either it works right away or bust. So pretty much "the internet killed gaming!!!"


Skykid: I think I get your point, but the counter-point is just simply that if you prefer a somewhat bad port over no port, making sure you get a port comes before making sure you get the best port possible.
Well, in the end this whole arguing doesn't really matter. If we generously assume 10% of the forum bought the game, that's like 1/7 of total buyers so far. Quite a bit, but not the one decisive factor or anything. Meaning whether the release is successful comes down to other random people buying the game, in which case it does need to be as free of any issues as possible, anyway.

[moozooh]

Sometimes I wonder when exactly it was that we gave up our ability to demand quality products done in a timely manner.

By my estimates, it was in the vicinity of "when we realized how much it cost to play on a PCB".

Very few of the arcade ports we have seen are good, let alone arcade-accurate. Some just lack slowdown and other options considered crucial these days (Saturn, Playstation-era ports), many others are completely different, often heavily castrated (8/16-bit Konami ports, etc.), games. It wasn't really until the DC/GC/PS2 era that ports became acceptable at all. Of course, we don't exactly notice this because we have been using MAME for everything that came prior (at least when we can't afford to play it in its original form).

Suddenly, when MAME support for newer releases had started to fall off, and you had to rely on ports for everything released after 2000 or so, the hunger to have even a flawed experience drove everyone to procure those horrible PS2 Mushihimesamas and other subpar garbage. We gave up our ability to demand quality when we gave into our cravings.

But if you think about it, the situation is hardly as bad as it is portrayed: the ports have actually become better over time. There have been more arcade-accurate, feature-rich ports released in the last 10-13 years (and before that there pretty much weren't any whatsoever!) than there have been shitty ones. And even the shitty ones are usually fully playable at least, and actually accurate at that. The overall trend is really only marred by Cave and Cave games alone, as they have been the only developer with such an inconsistent quality control on ports in present age.

[Van_Artic]

people bought isaac afterbirth and its like the biggest trainwreck ive seen in a while
its so bugged that half the content in it wouldnt show up so reddit put on tinfoil hats and were convinced that it was time-gated, meanwhile the devs poked fun at reddit and dropped cryptic clues that lead to nowhere

then it gets patched twice and even more stuff gets broken, ppl are now waiting for a third patch

whats the moral of the story? ppl still bought it and are playing it regardless

if cave is serious about this, they'll learn. i hope.

and most importantly of all

CHANGE YOUR COMPUTERS

[Xyga]

and most importantly of all

CHANGE YOUR COMPUTERS

Why

[moozooh]

You're holding it wrong.™

[Legendary Hoamaru]

I like to give PC devs a bout a week to see how they handle bugs before I jump on their ass.

Azure Striker Gunvolt had a bad launch, but Inticreates basically patched/updated the game nearly everyday to make it the definitive version.

However, there are still negative reviews about the launch version of the game recommending the 3DS version over it, as the reviewers didn't update or play it after launch. All of their negative complaints have been addressed in patches (within that week even), yet it's still there possibly misleading potential buyers. I think this might be the issue people have with some of the early negative reviews.

To solve that people can just update their reviews when/if things get fixed, assuming they haven't refunded the game. It just seems a lot of folks don't take the time to update them. Ah well.

[donluca]

I like to give PC devs a bout a week to see how they handle bugs before I jump on their ass.

Azure Striker Gunvolt had a bad launch, but Inticreates basically patched/updated the game nearly everyday to make it the definitive version.

However, there are still negative reviews about the launch version of the game recommending the 3DS version over it, as the reviewers didn't update or play it after launch. All of their negative complaints have been addressed in patches (within that week even), yet it's still there possibly misleading potential buyers. I think this might be the issue people have with some of the early negative reviews.

To solve that people can just update their reviews when/if things get fixed, assuming they haven't refunded the game. It just seems a lot of folks don't take the time to update them. Ah well.

^ This.
I don't get why it's so hard to understand, it seems like people WANT to throw shit at newly launched games just to sound and feel cool about themselves, like "there, while everyone is praising this piece of crap, bugged game, I'm here to bring justice to the field!". Well done Internet Sheriff!

Of course, you should not just overlook the bugs and act like they're not there, but there's a visible line between saying "the game is great, but some annoying bugs may hinder the experience. Hopefully they'll get fixed soon. Still it's definitely a buy" and "this game is nearly unplayable due to game breaking bugs. Don't buy".
One way would be "while the game is definitely promising, the bugs really prevent you for completely enjoy the experience. At the current state I can't recommend it if you already have the X360 version, but it's still a step up from the PS2 one. I'll update this if/when the bugs will get fixed".

I really don't understand why it's so hard for someone to grasp this simple concept, between those "WE MUST STAND UNITED AND PROMOTE THE CONTENT, NO MATTER HOW BROKE IT IS!!11!!11!one!" and the "WE MUST NOT SUPPORT CRAP OTHERWISE IT WILL BRING MORE CRAP!!11!!1!!".

Jesus Christ, Internet.

[Opus131]

Quick reminder why it is important to help out Cave bringing their games on Steam:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47141

[pegboy]

How many of Cave's ports are worth buying over just playing the versions in MAME? I'm talking about objectively better, forget about any "moral" reasons. Is this latest Steam port really better than just playing whatever MAME version is out there? It sounds like a complete mess from what I'm seeing.

[STGAlmond]

How many of Cave's ports are worth buying over just playing the versions in MAME? I'm talking about objectively better, forget about any "moral" reasons. Is this latest Steam port really better than just playing whatever MAME version is out there? It sounds like a complete mess from what I'm seeing.

For me the steam version of mushihimesama is much better than playing it in mame. I do not have extensive experience with the game either way, but I considered it pretty much unplayable in mame.

I am fortunate enough to not experience crash due to too many steam friends, but I found there was a small amount of input lag after they forced vsync. I could only notice the extra lag by doing quick back-to-back comparisons by disabling vsync through graphic card's control panel. Screen tearing is very minimal for me and only seems to happen during stage start, or I am just too focused to notice afterward. I did end up trying the 3rd party tool gedasato and it seemed to be able to remove screen tearing without adding the same input lag. I have been typically not using that 3rd party tool though, and just play without vsync.