Question regarding CRT Triniton Vs PVM monitor.

[rogerwilco]

Hey there, I'm new on the forum and I need to ask you an advise on what to do.
I got some consoles in my small collection, (some of them I sold and I really regret that but at the time I needed the money) but in the future I'm sure I will buy them again.

right now I got a jap original famicom, Snes, n64, psone, ps2 and some others. and I would like to play the best way possible.

I was looking forward on buying a CRT tv, because LCD sucks for playing retro consoles, and I found a Sony triniton 34 inch at a very cheap price, the beast weight so much that you need 2 people to lift it. it has svideo, composite, rgb component

BUT.....then on the other side I saw videos and info regarding SONY PVM monitors for PRO video editing.

that's when I found this post from a person that got lots of PVM http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50396

and in my country I also found a Sony PVM-14N1U 14" inch at a reasonable price. This tv does not have RGB but I think it works with S-Video, therefore you can use it with composite as well for example to connect a super Nintendo to it-


I wanted to know if the pvm is really worth for me, what do you guys recommend?

should I get the PVM-14N1U ?

[Ed Oscuro]

Choose the size that's best for you. The PVM only gives you a bit more flexibility in what inputs you connect, but probably the 34" will have at least as good a picture. Of course, not all 34" models are the same...and don't forget to test out each individual unit if you can, and avoid shipping.

[BazookaBen]

I say go with the 34" if it still looks good and you have the space. But make sure it is actually 480i. Some later Sony CRT's are actually 1080i and lag pretty bad with 15hz signals.

[rogerwilco]

thanks, size is a problem for such a big tv I must be honest. and what scares me is that if I buy it with shipping, it will be almost impossible to move it or get rid of it if it gets broken or needs repair transportation

but what scares me about the pvm is that it might need a lot of setup in order to get it working fine. I hope the seller has some s-video playback device so I can see it actually works fine, but still I read that the PVMs might be small but they are super heavy also!

[BazookaBen]

You will not be able to move the 34" TV by yourself, that is for sure. 14" PVM should look pretty good. You'll just have to sit way closer than with the 34"

[Ed Oscuro]

I wouldn't mess with the 14" for PS2 era consoles - resolution and size are marginal there. It's not a terrible model as far as that size goes, but you can do better.

[tacoguy64]

pvm/bvm are the best picture quality monitors hands down. Though there are people that say that the picture might be too good. It might be best to just check out which picture you prefer. There are lots of examples in Fudoh's crt monitor thread.

Sony pro monitors are way more of a hassle to find and own a good one.
Unless you live somewhere that has plenty of them then you will most likely have to spend lots of time to find one in your area. once you find one you best be sure that the monitor is in good condition. and finally the prices are a bit all over the map. you might get lucky and get one for cheap but also could find a person selling the monitors for a hundreds and not willing to budge much on the price.

I wouldn't even bother with ordering anything online. It's such a crapshoot. The biggest concern with online is the shipping. There are just so many ways it can go wrong with it. And if it shipped good, then you now have to hope that the monitor works and looks as good as described. Return shipping is expensive and time consuming as fuck.

Now i never seen a consumer sony set in person but from some of the pictures i've seen on here, the quality is pretty nice. If I had to grade them on a tier system, BVM would be S-A, PVM A+-B and Wega B+-B-. A bit off topic but maybe this place should do a tier system for crt monitors? From the pictures i've seen, the PQ isn't much higher on a BVM or PVM than on a Wega *there's still a noticeable difference to me*. Another pro for going the consumer tv route is that it is much easier to find and they can still be had for cheap. Also the consumer sets come in bigger sizes *you will need help to move* which might not be a pro for some but for me, bigger is better.

Hope this gave you something to think about.

[Ed Oscuro]

PVMs aren't all alike; the smaller you go, the less resolution they can resolve. The PVM-14N1U is specified for 500TVL, which could be marginal for 480i stuff. That, and the potential eyestrain of trying to watch detailed images in such a small window.

I'm not aware that Sony sold a bunch of lemons in the 34" size. At that size your options are probably Wega or XBR, neither of which has a bad rep.

[QXC]

To my knowledge, at least here in the US 34" models are widescreen and are almost all 1080i sets, which makes them no good for old consoles.

The PVM L1 isn't a very good set at all. It's only 250 lines compared to 600-800 on good sets (Note that this relates to sharpness, NOT resolution), and doesn't have RGB inputs. I'd only buy it if it was <10$ and I didn't have a consumer set.

[Ed Oscuro]

Who mentioned a PVM L1? The PVM-14N1U has a 500TVL spec. There are good PVM L1 series monitors, like the PVM-20L1 - it's basically a L2 but with composite and S-Video input only, which is fine for the stock NES and even the N64 should look fine there.

Sharpness and resolution are linked by the TVL method - we can use "sharpness" and "resolution" pretty much interchangeably here, but if the screen isn't fully sharp due to TVL, that means the resolution isn't high enough.

[QXC]

Who mentioned a PVM L1?

Ah, there goes my reading comprehension again.

[Nogame]

Just to confirm- no high-scan or fine pitch TV's can be configured to display 240P video? No disabling of up-scaling or whatever?

[FinalBaton]

Just to confirm- no high-scan or fine pitch TV's can be configured to display 240P video? No disabling of up-scaling or whatever?

No. And no.
You get to choose wether you upconvert 240p signals to either 480p or 1080i, both of wich add some lag apparently

[rogerwilco]

thanks for all the answers


I found another model but it doesnt say "PVM" but looks like one its the:

Ssm-20n1u sony 20 inch and i found these specs http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model ... m20n1u.pdf

can anyone tell me if its a good monitor or a bad one to consider?

[tacoguy64]

Just by reading over its specs I cant really recommend this monitor.
The 500 TVL seems a bit low for this type of monitor and the fine pitch with add lag.
Doesn't seem like it even has an rgb connection which would be a deal killer for me.
I would most likely just keep looking for something nicer. Even if I got this monitor for free I know that there's better.

[Hoagtech]

Just to confirm- no high-scan or fine pitch TV's can be configured to display 240P video? No disabling of up-scaling or whatever?

No. And no.
You get to choose wether you upconvert 240p signals to either 480p or 1080i, both of wich add some lag apparently

Actually you can force 480i into 240p. You cannot if the source doesn't support 240p (GameCube composite or component) there is a mode called "progressive" on my super fine bitch. And there is no lag when I turn off digital reality creation. I am playing on a 17ms input lag Sony LCD and there is more lag than my Sony CRT.

Probably because 480i through component has to be internally scaled through my LCD but even so my CRT is fast foo.

[FinalBaton]

Just to confirm- no high-scan or fine pitch TV's can be configured to display 240P video? No disabling of up-scaling or whatever?

No. And no.
You get to choose wether you upconvert 240p signals to either 480p or 1080i, both of wich add some lag apparently

Actually you can force 480i into 240p. You cannot if the source doesn't support 240p (GameCube composite or component) there is a mode called "progressive" on my super fine bitch. And there is no lag when I turn off digital reality creation. I am playing on a 17ms input lag Sony LCD and there is more lag than my Sony CRT.

Probably because 480i through component has to be internally scaled through my LCD but even so my CRT is fast foo.

You sure your SFP displays 240p? I don't doubt that it recognizes 240p, but I don't think that it can display at that resolution.

[Hoagtech]

100% it displays 240p. The lines go from vibrating to blissfully still. It reads 480i in my service menu but it is definitely 240p. Everything up to 64 bit. My 128 bit consoles all have there own trouble : GC , PS2, XBOX, DC

[FinalBaton]

The lines go from vibrating to blissfully still

And that would be 480 progressive, no?

[Josh128]

Probably line doubling 240p to 480i, hence what the service menu says. Since the active 240p lines are doubled and dont contain any different picture info-- the "vibrating" lines of actual 480i content will not occur. This is par for the course for consumer HDCRT sets.

I have yet to see any consumer HD sets that will actually change to 15kHz and display only 240 active lines. I dont believe anything outside of certain broadcast monitors was ever made that can do that.

[FinalBaton]

Probably line doubling 240p to 480i, hence what the service menu says. Since the active 240p lines are doubled and dont contain any different picture info-- the "vibrating" lines of actual 480i content will not occur. This is par for the course for consumer HDCRT sets.

I have yet to see any consumer HD sets that will actually change to 15kHz and display only 240 active lines. I dont believe anything outside of certain broadcast monitors was ever made that can do that.

I meant that when he says "the lines become still", what he sees on his TV at that moment is a 480 progressive scan image. Not a 240p image.
Cause SFP tubes can't display 240p. Lowest they go is 480 interlaced and 480 progressive.

[Guspaz]

My PVM still shows the vibrating images when displaying a 240 pixel tall image at 480i. Why wouldn't it? Every scanline jumps up or down by one scanline every new field. Just because the alternating scanlines are the same doesn't mean that moving up and down won't flicker. It also always shows 480i regardless of if a 240p or 480i signal is being displayed.

EDIT: Of course, line doubling from 240p to 480p would not flicker.

[FinalBaton]

Discussion seems to have derailed for some reason. The point I'm trying to make(pertaining to what I was discussing with Hoagtech) is :

The progressive image he saw on his TV is not 240p. It's 480p.

[BazookaBen]

Hey guys, I've been using a Hi-scan TV lately, and after some online research I can confirm:

15hz sources can either be scaled to 480p or 960i. There are two DRC options that scale to 480p and they differ slightly, but you want the 960i (called interlaced) option because it actually renders all 60 frames from 240p. The 480p options only line double every other frame in my understanding. So in NES games where your character is flashing after taking damage, for example, he will either disappear or appear to not be flashing at all.

All of them introduce some degree of lag. I didn't mess with it too much though.

[Nogame]

So, would those HDTV CRT sets be very good for N64, or maybe sixth gen. consoles? Or is Nintendo 64 graphics quality hopeless, and better to play emulated?

I really wanted to try a large rare HD trinitron that was for sale in my area not long ago, but seller was firm at $100 and I have no truck. It sold

[Hoagtech]

Hmmm. Internal line doubling vs internal de interlacing?

I would assume it recognizes the progressive 240p source and allows me to enter the "progressive" mode.

My 480p content is displayed at 1080I.

My component source is the Csy 2100.

[BazookaBen]

Hmmm. Internal line doubling vs internal de interlacing?

I would assume it recognizes the progressive 240p source and allows me to enter the "progressive" mode.

My 480p content is displayed at 1080I.

My component source is the Csy 2100.

No, that's not how it works.

It sees all 15hz sources as the same thing, whether they be 240p or 480i. And the output will either be 480p or 960i depending only on your DRC mode. Keep in mind, in those two modes, it is technically scanning at 540p and 1080i, respectively, but it places the 480p/960i images inside those frames before zooming the picture to eliminate the underscan. So in effect you are getting true 480p/960i. There is definitely lag though. Especially in 16:9 "Full" mode.

So, would those HDTV CRT sets be very good for N64, or maybe sixth gen. consoles? Or is Nintendo 64 graphics quality hopeless, and better to play emulated?

No, they're not good for N64 and older stuff. 480i games look OK. 480p, 540p, and 1080i are where they really shine though. And 480p will net you some lag since there is digital processing, and can increase with certain zoom modes.

So in the end, I prefer PC CRT's instead for 480p and above, since there is no digital processing at any resolution, and use PVM's for 480i/240p.

[tacoguy64]

So, would those HDTV CRT sets be very good for N64, or maybe sixth gen. consoles? Or is Nintendo 64 graphics quality hopeless, and better to play emulated?

I really wanted to try a large rare HD trinitron that was for sale in my area not long ago, but seller was firm at $100 and I have no truck. It sold

I agree with what BazzokakBen said, for 480p and above content, you'll get best results with a pc crt.

For the N64 it's kinda complicated. The filter that the games use is the number one thing in preventing it from looking nice. Even after you rgb mod the system, you will still get all the benefits you get from it but that filter just gets in the way and games just look ugly. For me, I just use s-video on my crt monitor and play my n64 games without any mods. I'm keeping my eye out on that HDMI n64 mod development.

I have tried some n64 emulators myself but I rather play on real hardware. Despite that, the emulators do make the games look nicer.

[Hoagtech]

Hmmm. Internal line doubling vs internal de interlacing?

I would assume it recognizes the progressive 240p source and allows me to enter the "progressive" mode.

My 480p content is displayed at 1080I.

My component source is the Csy 2100.

No, that's not how it works.

It sees all 15hz sources as the same thing, whether they be 240p or 480i. And the output will either be 480p or 960i depending only on your DRC mode. Keep in mind, in those two modes, it is technically scanning at 540p and 1080i, respectively, but it places the 480p/960i images inside those frames before zooming the picture to eliminate the underscan. So in effect you are getting true 480p/960i. There is definitely lag though. Especially in 16:9 "Full" mode.

So, would those HDTV CRT sets be very good for N64, or maybe sixth gen. consoles? Or is Nintendo 64 graphics quality hopeless, and better to play emulated?

No, they're not good for N64 and older stuff. 480i games look OK. 480p, 540p, and 1080i are where they really shine though. And 480p will net you some lag since there is digital processing, and can increase with certain zoom modes.



So in the end, I prefer PC CRT's instead for 480p and above, since there is no digital processing at any resolution, and use PVM's for 480i/240p.

480p is not its strong suit. It's doesn't even treat 480p as a progressive signal and interlaces it. It looks nice but is jumpy. There is no noticeable lag on 240p content either. I really enjoy its 720p (1080i) mode with my wii u.

If my 240p did not have bars on the side (16:9) it would be perfect for old games. And even so I don't mind a stretch kinda like the GBA playing game boy content.

Good luck finding a CRT monitor bigger than 20" or even one with a viewing distance of more than 3'. I play my tv on a couch with 4 people.

[Josh128]

Probably line doubling 240p to 480i, hence what the service menu says. Since the active 240p lines are doubled and dont contain any different picture info-- the "vibrating" lines of actual 480i content will not occur. This is par for the course for consumer HDCRT sets.

I have yet to see any consumer HD sets that will actually change to 15kHz and display only 240 active lines. I dont believe anything outside of certain broadcast monitors was ever made that can do that.

I meant that when he says "the lines become still", what he sees on his TV at that moment is a 480 progressive scan image. Not a 240p image.
Cause SFP tubes can't display 240p. Lowest they go is 480 interlaced and 480 progressive.

With my earlier post, Im agreeing with you-- the set is actually line doubling the 240p and displaying it in a 480 line frame. It is technically recognizing and displaying it as 480i though-- but because the 240p fields are not alternating, but sent to the set 60 times a second, it is actually line doubling that 240p/60 to 480i/60, but since the line doubled fields are not changing, what you actually end up with is equivalent to a 480p image!

My old TC P50X60 plasma used to handle 240p the same way-- it would kick the set into 480i mode, but unless you actually fed the set 480i, you did not get the "vibrating" fields.