Cave & Capitalism

[cul]

Also Death Metal has always been a shitty musical genre. Regardless of which edgy sub-scene you were listening to.

[Obscura]

No, I'd say that there is a huge casual audience for Souls. Although Souls gauntlets do generate excitement, they're not long enough to be deal breakers for casuals, who can enjoy them along with the other aspects of the game like exploration, stat customization, the storyline etc. (none of which exist in the barebones shmup experience).

Storyline as a selling factor for casuals in a Souls game? The series where communities have to dig through every dark corner and make wild guessing theories to piece together any hint of a story? Do you even pay attention to what you're typing?

As for fighting games, their resurgance is more due to the advent of online play IMO. If it wasn't for that, they'd still be gathering dust outside of the very small minority who actually drive out to tournaments.

Online multiplayer is well within the technical capabilities of shmup developers these days. Do you seriously think it would single-handedly bring the genre to FGC-like prominence?

A lot SNES platformers and action games actually have an arcade structure. Even the Mickey Mouse games have score counters that are blanked on death.

I said "most popular". The Zelda-likes, the JRPGs, the 16 bit Marios, etc. did not have arcade structures. Hell, even the games that did have arcade structures also usually had a password system, and didn't save high scores anywhere.

Care to elaborate on what that might be?

They were willing to sacrifice "competitive integrity" at the cause of making the game more fun to play for its own sake.

EDIT @cul -- You're responding to an argument I never made. Another tell. I wasn't claiming that it was good or not. I was explaining why it had cultural resonance at certain times and not others.

[BazookaBen]

K, most of the last few pages definitely need to be either nuked or split into a separate thread. I'd like to have a place I can read to find info on the new port of Mushi

[Eaglet]

K, most of the last few pages definitely need to be either nuked or split into a separate thread. I'd like to have a place I can read to find info on the new port of Mushi

+1
This is getting beyond retarded.

[Icarus]

Christ on a crutch, just shut up already.

1. Prospective buyers need to be made aware that there are some pretty bad issues with the port - and buyer reviews are currently the best way to do that. Got a better suggestion? I'm all ears.
2. Degica and Cave need to be made aware that these issues are generally not acceptable, and Degica especially should know that there are ways to avoid problems like this - test extensively before you even consider releasing it into the public domain. How many games have been released so far? Am I the only one that's noticed a gradual decrease in quality with each successive release?
3. Given how small the genre is already, you'd think that more care would have been taken to ensure that the final product is polished and complete, since there are far fewer people willing to give the product a chance compared to other genres and more popular games. I have no intention of paying $20+ to be a beta tester for a shmup, and there are probably others that feel the same way.
4. I find the "we have to support the genre!" argument baffling in this context - Cave got themselves into this position in the first place, and if they were absolutely serious about pulling themselves from the depths of oblivion in the first place, they'd a) have actually considered doing it earlier, and b) planned it all a little better. This, the sudden upsurge of social media activity, and the "consideration for crowdfunding" all reeks of an animal in its death throes, thrashing about while struggling to cling to life.

If you didn't have Mushi on PS2 or 360 before, then by all means go and buy it. But in its current form, I can't recommend the Steam version to anyone I know, and I don't have high hopes for anything Cave decide to vomit out in the near future being decent initially.

[Squire Grooktook]

Storyline as a selling factor for casuals in a Souls game? The series where communities have to dig through every dark corner and make wild guessing theories to piece together any hint of a story? Do you even pay attention to what you're typing?

It telegraphs you into the story more then any shmup. Npc's talk and say things, descriptions are all over items you find. There are cutscenes on occaision.

And perhaps mostly importantly, there is a MASSIVE amount of hype for the games story and aesthetic on the internet, which started before the game was even out, so most people are hyped for the story and willing to chase it before they even begin. Even if you're too lazy to hunt down all those items and story elements, most of the information can be found on the internet, which doesn't change the effect at all. Come to think of it, I think most people play the game with a guide these days.

I said "most popular". The Zelda-likes, the JRPGs, the 16 bit Marios, etc. did not have arcade structures. Hell, even the games that did have arcade structures also usually had a password system, and didn't save high scores anywhere.

Well, Final Fantasy 4-6 didn't let you save anywhere. Only pre-appointed spots in dungeons.

Sad that SMT IV was ruined by a lack of this.

Online multiplayer is well within the technical capabilities of shmup developers these days. Do you seriously think it would single-handedly bring the genre to FGC-like prominence?.

Fighting game competitive play =/= shmup co op.

If you didn't have a friend to play with (which most people don't) and you weren't part of the (even now) tiny minority that drives to tourney, you were pretty much up a creak in the dark age between online play and the death of arcades.

With fighters, online play is pretty much a necessity without arcades being a thing. With shmups, it's entirely optional.

Christ on a crutch, just shut up already.

Okay fine, I'm done. Not responding or even reading this thread for a while.

Also just for the record, I agree with what you were saying, and I do think reviews should mention the negative aspects of the most recent port. "I hope Degica fails" is going a bit far though.

[Casey120]

Also Death Metal has always been a shitty musical genre. Regardless of which edgy sub-scene you were listening to.

That Punk statement was bordering on insanity, the whole idea behind the punk scene was screw everything, just learn some power cords and everybody play .

[Skykid]

Ha ha, this is brilliant. Just popped in here to see everyone having fun and I find out that the port is fucked up and everyone is talking utter nonsense. This place is 2 awesome.

Just a note on some of the special needs comments that have arisen recently: I'll never understand the ridiculous notion of developer support when you're not getting anything in return, like it's a kind of standard requirement for you to pledge money for sub-par returns simply 'because'.

You're perfect slaves under capitalism, I assure you. If there's a dictionary definition somewhere, your picture's right there.

Do we all excuse George Lucas's decade long blip with the Star Wars prequels? I don't hear folks saying much like "You need to support George, he just had a bad ten years!" No-one is filling polls for special Special Editions of the prequels.

Yet when it comes to CAVE you forgive shitty business decisions that affect them, and affect you, time and time again, purely on the basis of 'support'. Why?

That guy saying he can't believe other people are streaming different games on Mushi's release weekend? Get a fucking life man. Stop watching gaming streams ffs and go speak to some human beings.

And all this nonsense about not posting information on Steam about the bugs - what on earth? You think that's doing a service to potential buyers or the developer/publisher? Ridiculous.

A business is just that: a profit driven enterprise. When CAVE were at their best I threw every bit of cash I'd worked damned hard for at their feet. When they stopped producing and started milking and generally got more and more bug prone, I started to keep my distance.

It isn't anyone's responsibility to line the pockets of any company or organisation looking to take your money unless they are actually delivering a high enough standard of goods to deserve that money. It's not rocket science.

If I had one piece of advice for CAVE and Degica, it would be please, please, please try harder next time.

[Opus131]

Yet when it comes to CAVE you forgive shitty business decisions that affect them, and affect you, time and time again, purely on the basis of 'support'. Why?

We have already explained why. Because the possibility of further ports hinges on the success of this one. This is not about supporting a company out of mere loyalty. There's actually something concrete to be gained in doing so. Bugs can always be fixed. But if this venture fails, that means no more Cave games on PC. Ever. But hey, at least we sure showed them not to release sub-par ports. That'll teach those greedy corporations a lesson, right?

[Mero]

This, the sudden upsurge of social media activity, and the "consideration for crowdfunding" all reeks of an animal in its death throes, thrashing about while struggling to cling to life.

That was my take on it, as well.

And yeah, buy a product because you want it.

Ever. But hey, at least we sure showed them not to release sub-par ports. That'll teach those corporations a lesson, right?

Right.

[nekketsu]

HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but Mushi and Eschatos and "high quality" doesn't compute.

[Sine Mora] were willing to sacrifice "competitive integrity" at the cause of making the game more fun to play for its own sake.

This just in: Garbage mechanics and a reliance on pretty visuals = "quality." Stay tuned after the break for cat videos and senior citizen birthday announcements.

[Skykid]

Yet when it comes to CAVE you forgive shitty business decisions that affect them, and affect you, time and time again, purely on the basis of 'support'. Why?

We have already explained why. Because the possibility of further ports hinges on the success of this one.

That's their problem to worry about, not yours. It's not about the customer base championing them despite a flawed product being bought and paid for, it's about them avoiding loss of retention and discouraging of new business by ensuring the product is 100% as good as it could be.

They've released this fucking game countless times on countless formats, and some of those had issues too - but by this point figuring out how to get it into optimal shape for a user-base so die-hard they're actually willing to overlook elementary and avoidable problems should be a no brainer.

But hey, at least we sure showed them not to release sub-par ports. That'll teach those corporations a lesson, right?

Now you're starting to get it.

[Bananamatic]

[Opus131]

That's their problem to worry about, not yours.

No, that's our problem. What does Cave care about extending their legacy, if it is no longer profitable? They can just close doors and move on. We are the only ones that stand to lose from this.

[Xyga]

[Opus131]

HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but Mushi and Eschatos and "high quality" doesn't compute.

[Sine Mora] were willing to sacrifice "competitive integrity" at the cause of making the game more fun to play for its own sake.

This just in: Garbage mechanics and a reliance on pretty visuals = "quality." Stay tuned after the break for cat videos and senior citizen birthday announcements.

Another reason to care about what happens to Cave. The vast majority of gaming companies out there today put out dumbed down garbage in order to make their games more "fun" and "reach" a greater audience, you see. Not that that has anything to do with increasing your profit margins, no sir (speaking of corporate greed). If Bach was alive today, he would be told to tone down on that contrapuntal and harmonic complexity. After all, wouldn't he want for more people to enjoy his music (of course, then his music wouldn't really be Bach anymore, but who cares, right)?

[Blinge]

Just a note on some of the special needs comments that have arisen recently: I'll never understand the ridiculous notion of developer support when you're not getting anything in return.

Special needs is a bit strong. One reason to support the dev is I want more Steam ports. Mushi runs fine for me, replays work, my settings are saved, none of the egregious bugs have affected me. This is also the first time i've ever paid for a cave game, despite countless hours of enjoyment of their products; slave indeed.

And all this nonsense about not posting information on Steam about the bugs - what on earth? You think that's doing a service to potential buyers or the developer/publisher? Ridiculous.

Yeah maybe I was a bit misguided. I just warned against coming down on cave like a ton of bricks the instant they stick their head out of the gutter. Maybe bad press will encourage a better effort in future, if mushi doesn't fail here. It's all conjecture really.

Obscura I do wonder why you had to wade into this thread too, considering you don't like Mushi. I'd assume you were sharing in Skykid's schadenfreude but you don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

This, the sudden upsurge of social media activity, and the "consideration for crowdfunding" all reeks of an animal in its death throes, thrashing about while struggling to cling to life.

Yeah, and the vultures are circling here..

[HenAi]

That's their problem to worry about, not yours. It's not about the customer base championing them despite a flawed product being bought and paid for, it's about them avoiding loss of retention and discouraging of new business by ensuring the product is 100% as good as it could be.

It's his problem, too, if either a) he really wants to get ports of Cave games on PC for any of a variety of reasons or b) he's hoping Cave will produce more games in the future as long as they don't outright croak.
The approach of giving your money only to companies that produce (almost) flawless products is all well and good until you're faced with the choice of either giving your money to a company that doesn't or none at all.
It's not like there's tons of other companies vying for the money of shmup players. In reality, it's more like shmup players desperately clinging to any company that might actually release some more shmups.

I mean right, there's a ton of hilarious hyperbole in this thread, but it's not like the basic idea is wrong. It boils down to do you want more shmups? More shmups of this particular variety? More shmups from this particular company? Would you rather have an imperfect one or none at all? If yes to 2 and/or 3, and option 1 on 4, you'll probably want to support this particular port.

I don't really care whether a company "deserves" the money they get or not, I just care about whether or not I get the games I want. If Cave somehow managed to release their whole catalog on Steam in an absolutely broken state and still turn a profit, but the broken ports were rectified via fan patches, hey, who gives a shit. The end result would still be the whole catalog being on Steam in a perfect state.

Seriously, somehow we've gone from "is buying this game right now a good idea" to moral obligations, capitalism and fuck knows what.

[Xyga]

People, don't even try to give reasons or even explain temperance and patience to people who are obviously here to give flak for their personal enjoyment, because for them it's not even about the game.

[copy-paster]

> First CAVE PC games
> Lots of issues
> It's normal, they will fix it soon

[Opus131]

That's their problem to worry about, not yours. It's not about the customer base championing them despite a flawed product being bought and paid for, it's about them avoiding loss of retention and discouraging of new business by ensuring the product is 100% as good as it could be.

It's his problem, too, if either a) he really wants to get ports of Cave games on PC for any of a variety of reasons or b) he's hoping Cave will produce more games in the future as long as they don't outright croak.
The approach of giving your money only to companies that produce (almost) flawless products is all well and good until you're faced with the choice of either giving your money to a company that doesn't or none at all.
It's not like there's tons of other companies vying for the money of shmup players. In reality, it's more like shmup players desperately clinging to any company that might actually release some more shmups.

I mean right, there's a ton of hilarious hyperbole in this thread, but it's not like the basic idea is wrong. It boils down to do you want more shmups? More shmups of this particular variety? More shmups from this particular company? Would you rather have an imperfect one or none at all? If yes to 2 and/or 3, and option 1 on 4, you'll probably want to support this particular port.

I don't really care whether a company "deserves" the money they get or not, I just care about whether or not I get the games I want. If Cave somehow managed to release their whole catalog on Steam in an absolutely broken state and still turn a profit, but the broken ports were rectified via fan patches, hey, who gives a shit. The end result would still be the whole catalog being on Steam in a perfect state.

Seriously, somehow we've gone from "is buying this game right now a good idea" to moral obligations, capitalism and fuck knows what.

Right on.

Once their entire library is ported on Steam, then we can worry about smashing capitalism and fighting the power. Or whatever.

[nekketsu]

Another reason to care about what happens to Cave. The vast majority of gaming companies out there today put out dumbed down garbage in order to make their games more "fun" and "reach" a greater audience, you see. Not that that has anything to do with increasing your profit margins, no sir (speaking of corporate greed). If Bach was alive today, he would be told to tone down on that contrapuntal and harmonic complexity. After all, wouldn't he want for more people to enjoy his music (of course, then his music wouldn't really be Bach anymore, but who cares, right)?

Agreed. Especially considering Cave themselves already did a slowdown mechanic, which doubles as an "easy mode," far better in Espgaluda. Really smart risk/reward scoring which provides a large amount of leniency to newcomers. But no, Sine Mora is the high watermark of shooters for its time travel wank-fiction and "sense of immersion"

[Friendlyfriend]

I don't really care whether a company "deserves" the money they get or not, I just care about whether or not I get the games I want. If Cave somehow managed to release their whole catalog on Steam in an absolutely broken state and still turn a profit, but the broken ports were rectified via fan patches, hey, who gives a shit. The end result would still be the whole catalog being on Steam in a perfect state.

While I completely understand where you're coming from I'm not sure this is a healthy attitude to have, especially regarding fan patches. The relationship between business and consumers should be one where no one owes each other anything, you provide a good product and I'll provide you with money for it but the genre is kind of at an impasse where not supporting releases could potentially result in less games, maybe even closure of the company, but supporting releases with issues doesn't send a good message.

With mushi I think CAVE should be given some slack given it's their first venture with shmups in the PC space but for future releases they absolutely can not release with the same issues. While I'm not privy to the exact details of how CAVE/Degica dealt with testing the game other than giving keys out to high ranking players & (mostly)clueless youtubers they seemed to have completely overlooked testing on various hardware setups, something that absolutely shouldn't be overlooked given the complexity of the various configurations people run.

While I feel like most responses to the port are too far on either end of the spectrum I think for now there should be some give & take expected for the initial release but that good will should only stretch so far.

[Skykid]

Argh. Looks like the sentiment has been misunderstood again. Let me try reframing the same thing in a few more different ways.

I want CAVE games on steam, and I've spent enough money on CAVE games that they should send me a consumer award. In-fact, I want all the same things that you do: for them to be successful, give us more ports, and ultimately produce new fantastic games.

However.

CAVE don't learn so good. These guys have been shooting their feet off for long enough to effectively cripple their own prospects. That's not something I can applaud. As developers, when we wanted new games, we hit an era of ports, some good, some average, some with terrible issues, and after that we hit an era of nothing except milking.

If you are an arcade vendor in Japan, do you think it's fun that 'that one shmup company' keeps revising all the games they sell me? An arcade vendor is a businessman too. Time and effort, not to mention the absence of the game while it makes a round trip to be patched, costs revenue. My point being that there are a lot of quality errors across several markets.

This is kind of separate to the original train of thought though. It's more this:

I mean right, there's a ton of hilarious hyperbole in this thread, but it's not like the basic idea is wrong. It boils down to do you want more shmups? More shmups of this particular variety? More shmups from this particular company? Would you rather have an imperfect one or none at all? If yes to 2 and/or 3, and option 1 on 4, you'll probably want to support this particular port.

None at all.

Let me give you an alternative way of looking at this question.

Mushi is released on steam. Has issues. Has lag.

We A: All say nothing. Swallow it. Hope the next one will be better. When the port of SDOJ you were holding out for finally turns up, the input lag from the 360 port is present. Perhaps worse.

Or B: We pipe up. Tell them for our money and allegiance we expect better. Next time it should be better. And as a result when the SDOJ port rolls around, we get the ultimate home version, lag free.

You should demand the best service for your patronage, blind allegiance doesn't get you progress.

[Van_Artic]

Just remember Mushihimesama it's their fourth port over the original jamma game. Not much investment or effort here... Maybe it's time to step forward and do something creative.

remember Instant Brain?

WHAT A HIT!!!

[Xyga]

The thing you're missing SkyKid is that there's no blind alliegance or whatever, people report the issues and expect fixes soon enough.

They're not just as quick to trigger the carpet-bombing like you or some other members do.

Being a bit forgiving and patient doesn't mean being stupid/slave or lenient SkyKid.
I'm telling you if in about a 2~3 weeks they haven't fixed every major issue I'm going to be just as pissed off and vocal as you are.

Just not yet, for now I'm just reporting the issues on my side, that's much more useful right now.

[trap15]

The thing is, they shouldn't have released it with such critical issues. It's very clear to me that this isn't "one person's weird computer", there's not really a good excuse for this. They could have pushed the release back, Degica could've said "this is really glitchy, we're not going to release it yet", anything. But nope, gotta shove it out and let the shmupsforum mongs gobble the shit down with a grin on their face and call anyone who doesn't do the same a heathen. By releasing it in this broken state, it sends a pretty clear "fuck you pay me" to CAVE's consumers, and makes it obvious they have no respect for them either.

[Xyga]

Totally agree with that, they've made a big mistake especially from that perspective.

Personally there's no way I'm going to buy their next game/port on release day, I'll read the feedback first, and if it's not right I'll wait.

And if ultimately the major issues don't get fixed I won't buy at all.

EDIT: I'm no developer but I'm afraid Mushi's fps and lag issues mean serious trouble, I wonder how long they will need to find a fix and if they can even do it without external help.

[NTSC-J]

I have to admit, I was a bit on the fence about this one myself. Paying for a sub-par port of a game I don't like (for the third time) on a service I never use may not sound great in theory, but I just know it's going to a good place.

Besides, how could I look Ikeda in the eye when I see him at this year's shareholder's potluck if I didn't donate to our latest pledge drive? I assume many of you will be there (judging by the posts in this thread, I think most of us here hold a fair share of stock in Cave, yes?). Here's to an even brighter 2016!

[Skykid]

Totally agree with that, they've made a big mistake especially from that perspective.

What the fuck? Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?

I must talk in maths.

I have to admit, I was a bit on the fence about this one myself. Paying for a sub-par port of a game I don't like (for the third time) on a service I never use may not sound great in theory, but I just know it's going to a good place.

Besides, how could I look Ikeda in the eye when I see him at this year's shareholder's potluck if I didn't donate to our latest pledge drive? I assume many of you will be there (judging by the posts in this thread, I think most of us here hold a fair share of stock in Cave, yes?). Here's to an even brighter 2016!

All your posts are so full of win.